Why Article 1 Section Two Excludes Native Americans From The Census: Its Foundations of Freedom Thursday, a special day of the week where we get to answer questions from you, the listeners! Always answering your questions from constitutional principles! Tune in today as we answer your most pressing questions!

Air Date: 09/19/2019

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Greatest Political Privilege

President Calvin Coolidge said, “€œThe more I study the Constitution, the more I realize that no other document devised by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity. To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.”€

Faith And The Culture 


Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! where we”€™re talking about today”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture; always doing that from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker, pastor and president of WallBuilders, and my name is Rick Green. I’m a former Texas state legislator, national speaker, and author.

You can learn more about us at WallBuildersLive.com. There’s a lot of great information there. You can get into archives of the program where you can actually go back and listen to some of WallBuilders Live! from the last few months, if you missed some of those programs.

Then also, at WallBuilders.com there’s a lot of great information for you as well. At either website, I encourage you to look at the “€œdonate”€ button, not just look at it, actually click on it, and make that contribution allowing us to grow as a program and expand this message of equipping and inspiring citizens to restore America’s Constitution.

The FOID Card

It”€™s Foundations of Freedom Thursday, a special day of the week where we get to answer questions from you, the listeners! Always answering your questions from constitutional principles! If you have a question you”€™d like us to answer, send it in to [email protected].

The first one today comes from David in Illinois. He has a question about one of the terrible gun-control laws that has been passed there. Anyway, he says, “€œIs it against the Constitution and legal for the state of Illinois to enforce the FOID card to own a gun in this state? Thanks very much.”€

The FOID card. Am I reading that right, guys?


Yes, you are, Rick. That is the Firearm Owners Identification Card. I actually looked it up as you were reading the question, because I thought I don’t know what a FOID card is.

But, essentially it’s a concealed carry permit. A license-to-carry permit is the idea. But, in Illinois they say, “€œYou cannot even possess a firearm”€””€it’s not about Can you carry it in public or conceal it?

You cannot even own a firearm unless you’ve gone through background checks and the registry, unless you’ve paid your fee and received a validation card, essentially, from the state of Illinois. Then, you can own a gun. But, the card is subject to being revoked, and there are a lot of hoops to jump through.

Is it Unconstitutional?

Now, is that unconstitutional? At first glance, I would quickly say “€˜yes”€™ because the whole point of the Second Amendment was that as long as you were a peaceable citizen, that you could possess a firearm. And, this was to protect your life, property and community, or maybe the state or the nation from foreign invaders kind of scenario.

So, the fact that you would have to request permission from the government and pay them a fee just to possess a firearm”€”it”€™s different if we talk about concealing and carrying in a public. Although, we could have a different debate.

Rick, I know you and your family do a lot of training out at Front Sight and have gone through a lot of process. Dad, you and I have done training with some different, highly-qualified military personnel. We’ve all done a fair amount of training.

And, in the midst of this, we might have a debate about whether or not you should have to go through x-y-z process to be able to carry on your person or conceal, whether you’re going from state to state. There’s a lot of discussion that could be had around the Second Amendment. But to say that you cannot possess a firearm unless the state gives you permission, is a problem.

Well, actually, this question is something”€”

The FSID Card


Wait a minute. Before you tell us what’s happened with it, Tim, I”€™ve got to disagree with you. I don’t see this as any different from the FSID card; you know, the Free Speech ID card that you have to carry if you’re going to actually speak your thoughts.

It’s not any different than the FRID card, the one if you’re going to exercise your freedom of religion. You’ve got to have that card to walk into church or to say anything about your faith. I mean, those are the same thing, right?  We have those all over the place.


I don’t remember having to get that card. That’s a new one to me, Rick. Where did you go to get yours.


Oh man! I’m in fantasy world. I’ve been reading 1984 and other Orwell books, and I was thinking it was actually happening here.

No, no, no, you’re right. Okay, I agree with you completely. But, that’s how ridiculous this is.

It would be like having to have a card to get into church.


It is ridiculous. And, again, we’re talking about just to possess a firearm. If you live in the state of Illinois and own a gun–let’s say this was an old shotgun that your great grandfather handed down to you, an old bird-hunting gun like a single-shot, break-open.

Maybe this was even one-of-a-kind that you had to use black powder, as a muzzleloader ramrod. This is an old gun. You could be in major legal trouble if you own this gun in the state of Illinois without having done the process to get your FOID card, without having to pay the state and go through all the back–just to possess it, not to carry it in public, hunt or do anything else.

Well, this was something that actually was challenged in the state of Illinois. And, part of the reason is, in the Illinois Constitution it actually says”€”


By the way, while you’re talking about this, this goes back to the philosophy that what we have are certain inalienable or natural rights given to us by God. And, if those rights come from God, they can’t be impeded by government. So, that’s what we have in the Bill of Rights.

And that’s why the Second Amendment gives us a dual right of self-defense. We have the individual right of self-defense, the right to keep and bear arms. We have the corporate right of self-defense, the right to join with others in a militia or whatever.

The Philosophy Came from the Declaration

And so, this is something that was recognized at the time the Constitution was written. The philosophy came from the Declaration: there is a God Who God gives us certain rights, and government exists to protect those rights. But, it’s interesting that that was not just the belief of the federal government.

This is what you see in the states as well. So, if you look specifically at what the state of Illinois does”€”and, by the way, Illinois had its first constitution 1818; that’s when they went through becoming a territory under President Thomas Jefferson. They became their own state under President James Madison.

But, their original Constitution. Then, they went through another constitution in 1848, another one in 1870. And, they’re now in their fourth constitution written in 1970.

Illinois Constitution

This is what the Constitution says about rights of citizens. Section 22 says: “€œSubject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”€ So, nothing is going to impede your ability to keep and bear arms. Then, In Article 12 it says: “€œThe state militia consists of all able bodied persons residing in the state except those exempted by law.”€

So, if you’re a citizen of Illinois, you’re part of the militia, which has the corporate right of self-defense. You can defend the state and the region. But, individually, you have the right to keep and bear arms without that right being infringed.


Well, knowing the FOID card actually violates even the Illinois State Constitution. This was a court case that happened just last year. On February 14, 2018, a circuit court in Illinois found that the requirements to obtain this card was unconstitutional.

And, to require someone they determined to fill out a form, provide a picture ID, and pay money just to be able to exercise your right of self-defense and possess a firearm, they even identified it as a violation of Article 1, Section 22 of the Constitution the State of Illinois. The state then requested that this circuit court reconsider its decision.

The circuit court reconsidered and said, “€œNope, we were right the first time.”€ And so, now this is being appealed to the Illinois Supreme Court. So, the question was Is this constitutional?

Illinois Supreme Court

Well, already this circuit court in Illinois said, “€œIt was not constitutional,”€ as we would agree totally. No, this is not constitutional to say, “€œYou do not have the right to possess a firearm unless you get permission from the state.”€ No that’s not constitutional.

But, this is in the process right now of going to the Illinois Supreme Court. So, in the next year or two we should find out. I imagine, if this Illinois Supreme Court upholds the circuit court ruling, the state will want to appeal it again, because Illinois is embracing a lot of liberal ideology and a lot of anti-gun ideology.

So, it’ll probably go to the U.S. Supreme Court. But, I would fully expect the U.S. Supreme Court with the current makeup of that court, to uphold what the initial circuit court ruled, that this is a violation of the Constitution. So, right now this decision is still pending.

But, even this circuit court in Illinois recognized this as a violation of the Second Amendment. And, it’s a violation of the Illinois State constitution.


All right, quick break. We’ve got more questions coming up. Send your questions to [email protected]. Appreciate that question from David Ratcliffe.

The next one coming up is going to be from Jason. Stay with us. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live!

Questions of Power

Thomas Jefferson said, “€œIn questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.”€

Front Sight 

Hey friends! Rick Green here, from WallBuilders Live! What do Dennis Prager, Larry Elder, Ben Shapiro, Rick Green, Tim Barton, David Barton – what do all these folks have in common other than the fact that they’re conservative commentators that defend the Constitution and educate America on the Constitution?

They’re all raving about Front Sight Firearms Training Institute. In fact, if you go to my website right now today at RickGreen.com, you can watch the video of Dennis Prager training at Front Sight, or Larry Elder, or Tim Barton, or myself out there training at Front Sight. It’s an opportunity for you to learn how to defend yourself and your family to make sure that you are ready and able to do that. It is a fantastic place to train. They train 30 to 40,000 people a year, and they’re just wonderful to work with.

Handgun Training Course

And, you can go with us! We’re headed back out. We’re going to have a great time out there as the WallBuilders family and if you’re a supporter of WallBuilders, we have an amazing deal for you. It”€™s actually going to cost you 1/10th the normal price to attend this two day handgun training because you”€™re going with us. And, you”€™ll also get the Constitution crash course. I”€™ll be teaching on the Constitution, you”€™ll get the intellectual ammunition that you need to defend the Second Amendment and our Constitution. As well as getting the physical training on how to defend yourself and your family.

And, this is for everyone – guys, gals, everyone should take this class. No matter how much you”€™ve shot your whole life or if you”€™ve never touched a gun, learn how to defend your family. We”€™re going to be going several times throughout the year and we would love to have you be a part of that. Check it out at RickGreen.com today to find out the dates, get all the specifics, and get all of your questions answered. Check out RickGreen.com today to join us on this Front Sight trip for both your constitutional and handgun defense training.

Liberties and Freedom Are Worth Defending

Samuel Adams said, “€œThe liberties of our Country and the freedom of our civil Constitution are worth defending against hazards. And, it is our duty to defend them against all attacks.”€


Welcome back to WallBuilders Live! It”€™s Foundations of Freedom Thursday today. So, we”€™re taking your questions.

And, Jason’s question is about amendments and the Electoral College.

Poor Sports Trying to Change the Rules


He said, “€œI keep hearing you talk about the constitutional amendment process on air, and I have a question about the Electoral College and the amendment process. {In the news, they report} states are passing laws to change all their votes to coincide with the outcome of the popular vote. While it is technically possible to decide a winner of popular vote, there are still too many problems with the voting process, one being the problems on election days with electronic voting machines.

“€œI think another problem is occurring in the states and cities allowing undocumented immigrants to vote in the election, thus adding to the number of votes, which is changing the outcome. My question is What are your thoughts on this subject? I personally think some people are mad about losing the presidential elections and want to win in any way they can, and the legislators doing this are really giving away the people’s rights in places like Los Angeles and New York that are so populous.”€

Jason, I think you got you’re exactly right. They’re really just responding to the elections not being what they wanted, in terms of results. And so, they’re trying to change the system so they can try to get the result they want. David, Tim, what do you think?

The Electoral College is really what he’s referring to here.

Why Doesn”€™t San Francisco”€™s Mayor Vote in France?


Yeah, the Electoral College is what he”€™s referring to and how they are trying to change the system a couple of ways: through voting machines, through letting undocumented people vote. Even in states like California, where they said that illegals are able to vote there, those leaders would consider it ridiculous if you said, “€œHey, Mayor of San Francisco, why don’t you go vote in the presidential election of France?”€

“€œWell, I can’t do that; I’m not a citizen of France.”€


And, you just allowed all these illegals to vote here in your city and in your state? But, you don’t think that’s right for you to be able to do in other states. Would you explain your rationale on that?

There is no logic on this, except we want the outcome; we want to win and know that, given certain demographics, illegals are much more likely to vote Democrat than they are Republican. Therefore, we want them to vote, so they give us power, and we can do what we want.

It”€™s About Politics Not Principle

So, it really is about politics, not principle so often with this. Now, I find it intriguing that when you look at the electoral process, Jason was right. The Electoral College-what’s happened is these big states are giving away the rights of their people.

And, what they’re doing is giving this up so that they can get the outcome they want. Those big states are much more likely to vote Democrat than they are Republican, whether it be California, New York, et cetera. Texas has been Republican, but they’re becoming more blue, more purple; in this last election it was way too close.

So, the big states have a tendency not to be as conservative as, say, an Arkansas, Alabama, Louisiana, or Oklahoma, et cetera. So, it really is giving it away.

Now, what’s significant about this is, the smaller states that are Democrat are recognizing they’re losing their power. So, this Popular Vote Compact kind of thing, where they’re saying, “€œHey, we believe that whoever gets the popular vote should get all the electoral votes,”€ therefore it’s been passed in–I don’t know”€”12, 13, 14 states, all Democrat.

It’s interesting that in Maine and in Nevada, which are two small Democrat states, that they rejected the Popular Vote Compact because they said, “€œThat takes power away from us as small states; it gives power to all the big states like New York and California, et cetera.”€

Taking Power from the People

So, there is a recognition that the attempt to change the Electoral College actually takes power away from the people and puts it more in the hands of just a few leaders of very big states. And, that’s not what was designed with the Electoral College. So, I find it intriguing that even Democrats in small states are seeing this is not a good deal and are pushing back against it.


Okay. Stay with us, folks. We’ll be right back. We”€™ve got time for one more question today, and it’s a good one.

Stay with us on WallBuilders Live!

Greatest Political Privilege

President Calvin Coolidge said, “€œThe more I study the Constitution, the more I realize that no other document devised by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity. To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.”€

Constitution Alive!

Have you ever wanted to learn more about the United States Constitution but just felt like, man, the classes are boring or it’s just that old language from 200 years ago or I don’t know where to start? People want to know. But,, it gets frustrating because you don’t know where to look for truth about the Constitution either.

Well,, we’ve got a special program for you available now called Constitution Alive! with David Barton and Rick Green. It’s actually a teaching done on the Constitution at Independence Hall in the very room where the Constitution was framed. We take you both to Philadelphia, the Cradle of Liberty and Independence Hall and to the WallBuilders”€™ library where David Barton brings the history to life to teach the original intent of our Founding Fathers.

We call it the QuickStart guide to the Constitution because in just a few hours through these videos you will learn the Citizen’s Guide to America’s Constitution.  You’ll learn what you need to do to help save our Constitutional Republic. It’s fun! It’s entertaining! And,, it’s going to inspire you to do your part to preserve freedom for future generations. It’s called Constitution Alive with David Barton and Rick Green. You can find out more information on our website now at WallBuilders.com.

Be At All Times Armed

Thomas Jefferson said, “€œThe constitutions of most of our states, and of the United States, assert that all power is inherent in the people that they may exercise it by themselves that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. That they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press.”€

“€œExcluding Indians Not Taxed”€


Thanks for staying with us for our final segment and our final question. It’s actually a very hot topic of the day, when you look at this the right way. George Kirkman is asking about a part of the Constitution that says “€œexcluding Indians not taxed.”€

It’s right there in Article 1, Section 2. And, here’s what he said: “€œIt’s my understanding in Article 1, Section 2 of the United States Constitution, Indians were excluded from the census because they were not taxed.”€ By the way, in the Constitution, it is called the “€œenumeration.”€ We’re supposed to just be counting folks, not all the other stuff they’re do.

But anyway, the census. He said, “€œWhy aren’t illegal immigrants excluded from the census? They have no social security and therefore are not taxed.”€ Great question, Kirkman; we appreciate you sending that in.

Guys, what do you think?


Yeah, the Indians were excluded from the census early on because they wanted their own nation. They were not wanting to be part of the United States. And so, the Constitution, when the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution, they recognized that and said, “€œOkay, Indian tribes, you’re not wanting to be part of the United States; we recognize your lands as being separate international lands that are yours.”€

And so, as a result, because they are separate international lands, that doesn’t make them a citizen in the United States. It’s like saying, “€œHey you’re from France; that makes you a citizen of America, come vote in America.”€ No, no, no.

If you’re not a citizen United States, you can’t vote here. And so, the Indians, by their choice, wanted their own separate lands. And, those separate lands”€”it”€™s significant to see that you could not tax those lands. Federal laws do not apply on those lands.

Indian Reservations and Federal Laws

Even today, on Indian reservations, it’s only been in recent years that Indians have agreed that certain things will apply on the reservations. But, up until recent years, including as late as 1970, there were no federal taxes. When you do elections on Indian reservations, Indian lands, those elections are not overseen by federal officials or by local officials. That’s strictly something that is sovereign within the Indian nation.

To say that there were Indians not taxed, the deal was If we’re not taxing you, you’re not a citizen of the United States; therefore, we don’t catch you in the census anymore than we would count the people from Spain, Italy, or Russia. We don’t count other nations, and that’s the way Indian tribes were seen.

So, what happened was, that also meant that Indian tribes did not have the same constitutional rights as Americans in the sense, even though they were the first Americans, in the sense that they chose to be separate nations and not to be part of this.

Birthright Citizenship

So, a lot of this changed back in 1924, under Calvin Coolidge. In 1924 under Calvin Coolidge, birthright citizenship was given to Native Americans. In other words, if you’re born and Native American, that makes you an American citizen.

So, this act that was passed in 1924, changed all of that voting rights. And, instead of Native Americans being their own separate nation, they now were incorporated fully into the United States with all full rights of citizenship that go with being an American. So, even though today reservations and tribes are still able to keep their land separate and still have their own their own nation, police, tax system, school system, et cetera; they now today are full birthright American citizens because of that 1924 law.


So, how would that same approach”€”I mean, how would the philosophy of what they did back then apply to illegal aliens who come into the country? We’re seeing people say, “€œLet them vote and give them rights.”€


Well, it was the same thing. If you’re not part of the nation, if you’re not subject to direct taxes–and by the way, the Constitution said “€œdirect taxes.”€ Direct taxes are separate from indirect taxes.

Direct and Indirect Taxes

Anyone who comes in here is going to pay a grocery tax on bread, a tax on gasoline, a tax on anything they buy in the way of come commodities or goods et cetera. That’s not a direct tax. A direct tax is like, if you will, an income tax or something direct, whether it be a land tax or something else.

So, if you’re not having direct taxes, you’re not considered to be a citizen of the United States. We don’t pay direct taxes in France. I am not a citizen of France and don’t pay direct taxes there.

So, that was the deciding factor. And, by the way, if you use that standard and apply it today, then you look at those that we call “€œundocumented workers,”€ “€œillegal aliens,”€ whatever you want to say, they don’t pay direct taxes. They’re not paying the income tax per say.

Now, you’re paying withholding taxes in some ways; but, they’re exempt from so many other taxes and so much not a part of the system. So, there had to be a direct connection economically, and there had to be direct connection legally, which was citizenship.

And so, that’s why you had to be a legal immigrant, go through an immigration process, and become a part of the nation. The Bible says in Amos, “€œHow can to walk together unless they be agreed.”€ In other words, you’re not going to stay on the same road together unless you’re agreed together, and that’s what citizenship did.

The Citizenship Process

It took you down the road said, “€œHere’s what we believe. Do you believe this and want to walk down this road? Are we walking together?”€

If so, then you can become part of the nation. But, if you believe something radically different, then you’re not part of the nation. So, that’s why that was an important process to have.

And, what you see with Native Americans was, they walked side-by-side with America a long time. That’s why in 1924, they said, “€œWe’re headed the same direction and still recognize the tribal rights of Native Americans, the right to their own lands; but, we’re all part of the same nation et cetera.”€ And, that’s why those rights were extended.

So, Rick, that’s a good model for even how to look at things today and how rights should be extended today for those undocumented, illegal aliens who are here.


Yeah, it’s good to know that history because it helps us and informs our decision going forward on how we deal with those policies today. That’s why we look at everything from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective, because that history helps  you to know what works and what doesn’t work as well.

We’re out of time for today, folks. Send your questions into [email protected]. Don’t forget your challenge question for today.

On our Foundations of Freedom Thursday, you need to be asking friends and family about this. Get them thinking about these foundational principles. So, maybe out of today’s questions, the question about the requirement of the license in Illinois would be a good one.

Why Article 1 Section Two Excludes Native Americans

So, should you have to have a government license to own a firearm? Not necessarily to carry it in public, but to own a firearm, should you have to be licensed by the government and have the permission of the government to own a firearm? That’s a good question to ask your friends and family and get them thinking about it.

Then, we want to know what they said. So, get on WallBuildersLive.com to answer that survey and let us know what your friends or family were saying to that question. We’ve got lots more questions we’ll have to get to next Thursday on Foundations of Freedom.

We are out of time for today, though. That is all the Foundations of Freedom you’re going to get on this Thursday. But, you can get more next Thursday as well.

Be sure to tune in tomorrow for Good News Friday. Then, of course, Monday through Wednesday hear some of those great interviews that we have the opportunity to share with you as well.

Check out WallBuildersLive.com today if you’d like to dive into some of the archives of the past few months to listen to some of those past programs. Then, of course, hover over and click on that “€œdonate”€ button and make that one-time or monthly contribution to become a part of the team.

It’s your way of supporting and coming alongside us to help expand this ministry and message so that we can help restore America’s Constitution.

We sure appreciate you listening today. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live!

President Thomas Jefferson said, “€œI know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society, but the people themselves. And, if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.”€