Another Victory For Calvary Chapel Church – With Pastor Mike McClure – When God’s people fear God and not man, God blesses them for their obedience. Calvary Chapel Church has won another victory! Tune in today to hear Pastor Mike McClure talk about this recent victory!

Air Date: 08/29/2022

Guest: Mike McClure

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton

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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

 

Rick:

Welcome to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for joining us at the intersection of faith and the culture. You can learn more about us at our website, wallbuilderslive.com.

I’m Rick Green, a former Texas legislator and America’s Constitution coach. And I’m here with David Barton and Tim Barton. Tim’s a national speaker and pastor, president of WallBuilders, and then David is America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. You can learn more about all three of us at that website.

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What we’re going to do today is same thing we do every day, we look at whatever the hot topics of the day are from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. And we’re glad you’re along for the ride.

Alright, David. Tim, we’ve got Mike McClure back with us, he’s the pastor out there in California that, man, the government just came down on him so hard, millions of dollars in fines. He didn’t flinch. He fought back the whole time. He absolutely followed God’s law instead of what these overzealous bureaucrats were trying to do to him. And of course, we’ve had him on a couple of times to talk about it, but great new victory that we’ll be able to chat with him a little bit.

But man, so thankful for these pastors and so many of them from the left coast. You know, we love making fun of California. That’s just what we Texans do. But I’m telling you, those pastors in California came through so strong, so many of them over the last couple of years.

David:

And they came through a high price. In this case, Mike McClure, it’s over $4 million in fines. Even though he has one now, either two or three cases, this may be the third or fourth case. He keeps one at home and the city keeps pouring it on. It is like we’re not going to let you as a church get away with thumbing your nose at us, which he didn’t do, he’s just obeying God. They want to destroy him.

It’s interesting. I talked to the attorney that that is with Mike on this case and he also did Rob McCoy’s case, he did several cases there in California. And he said one of the things that really got him was when he was doing at the trial, he had these enforcers from the city there and said, so it’s really important to have this six foot rule. Is that what you’re saying? Yeah. And you got to have this rule? Yeah. And there’s no exceptions right, and you got to have the mask on? Yeah. And so the church is not doing that? Yeah. But you guys enforce this? Yeah.

And he had pictures of them sitting in their car without masks, sitting within two feet to each other and he said, so it’s really important that you guys don’t do it for yourself. So you clearly are just singling out the people you want to choose because even you are not living by the rules that you are enforcing on somebody else. And it was just so great. You know, it’s such a great visual picture in the courtroom, because they had no clue that he had these photographs of them in the car then the way they were and without mask. But that’s part of what’s gone on.

It’s been such a malicious attack on the churches. But I tell you, seeing pastors with backbone is one of the most encouraging things I’ve seen in a long time. And I don’t care where they’re from, California, anywhere else. A lot of the other places didn’t have this kind of stuff and they haven’t had the same backbone. But these guys are standing up. And McClure, bless his heart, man, I think he is the better pastor for it. And I know the community is better for it. He’s just a different guy on fire in a way that I’ve not heard in a long time. And it’s really cool that they now have another major win. We’ll see what the city tries to do if they try to ignore this one as well. But good news out of California.

Tim:

Well, guys, I read an article about this case and it was even part of the impetus for saying, hey, we just call Mike, let’s talk to Mike about this, because they were highlighting how big of a victory this was from a legal standpoint.

Dad, as you mentioned, this is not the first time he’s fought this exact same legal battle. But the city council and different entities and Judges in the state keep bringing the same issue up. But today’s program almost could be a Good News Friday program because it is just great news that he definitely has the favor of the Lord on this thing, which could be dad, as you mentioned, because he was showing an incredible backbone at a time when not many people were and very much following this biblical principle that you see in Acts with the early apostles and they’re told, hey, don’t talk about Jesus anymore. And then they tell the Sanhedrin and they tell the Pharisees and all these leaders, well, should we obey you or God because God told us to do this? He totally obeyed God being obedient to continue meeting and spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. He was penalized for it. But he is now seeing incredible victories.

And we’ve talked for a long time in America about, even though we were birthed on the biblical principles, the truth of the word of God, the truth of Christianity, and that was the foundation of our nation, our God-given rights identified as part of this freedom of religion and freedom of conscience. We only can enjoy those rights as long as they are politically protected. And for decades, we saw those rights under attack and it made us more and more nervous over time that America might fundamentally change forever and we might lose these political protections of our God-given rights.

But the really encouraging news is we are seeing example after example, and in Mike’s case, several examples just for him, where we are seeing those God-given rights being politically protected. So this really could just be a Good News program. But I’m excited now that we have Mike on the program that we can hear firsthand from him some of the testimony of what happened.

Rick:

Mike McClure, our special guest today. Stay with us, folks, we’ll be right back on WallBuilders Live.

WALLBUILDERS LIVE

Hey, this is Tim Barton with WallBuilders. And as you’ve had the opportunity to listen to WallBuilders Live, you’ve probably heard the wealth of information about our nation, about our spiritual heritage, about the religious liberties, about all the things that makes America exceptional. And you might be thinking as incredible as this information is, I wish there was a way that I could get one of the WallBuilders guys to come to my area and share with my group, whether it be a church, whether it be a Christian school or public school or some political event or activity.

If you’re interested in having a WallBuilders speaker come to your area, you can get on our website at www.wallbuilders.com and there’s a tab for scheduling. And if you click on that tab, you’ll notice there’s a list of information from speakers’ bios to events that are already going on and there’s a section where you can request an event to bring this information about who we are, where we came from, our religious liberties and freedoms. Go to the WallBuilders website and bring a speaker to your area.

Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. So good to have Pastor Mike McClure back with us from Calvary Chapel, San Jose. Mike, good to have you on again, bro.

Mike:

Thanks so much for having me. It’s a blessing. Love what you guys do and it’s an honor to be here. Thanks.

Rick:

Well, man, you have stood so firm throughout the whole COVID crackdowns and craziness of the last couple of years. The government came after you tried to keep you from being able to have church services, to sing, to do any of those things that the Bible commands us to do. And you fought it all the way. I forget the number, you had to remind me how many fines you had and how much the threats continued. But we heard that there was good news, so we wanted to get you back on.

Quick recap on how they came after you and what the exposure ultimately ended up being. I think it was millions, if I remember right and then what the outcome of that has been?

Mike:

Yeah, we back in 2020, in the fall, we opened up in May and then a few months went by. I think there’s about October, they started fining us every day. They’d show up and they’d find us singing or not social distancing or being in the building or whatever it may been, but it added up. We had about three other churches. We were also renting two in our facility. And one of them had already had the attention of the county. And then when we brought them in to have services on Sunday afternoon, it really then brought us into kind of their target.

And they began to just fine us, I don’t know, some like $5,000, $15,000, $20,000 a day. They would put these printout papers and they put them all over our lobby. And we have a large lobby and it just covered it so you couldn’t even see inside was dark. It I think it up to $4.2 million, they lowered it then to 3.8 or something like that and then that didn’t look so good. So they lowered it down to 2.3.

So I think they now look at this and I don’t know what they’re wanting to do other than… I got a phone call from a good friend, it was a lawyer of mine about that time and told me that behind all of this, he says, look, I have lawyers all over the place. And they tell me and the word on the street is that it’s big tech. And I thought that was so crazy. I said, what would big tech want to do with a church? I mean, what do they care? And he says, you understand, they’re going to give money; or whatever they’re going to do, they want you guys gone, the church, the school, everything. So that continues to go on. We were then pulled into court.

We had a restraining order for anyone who came to church and they put them these fines on us. They continue to do. And then we basically violated or defied the court, not that I wanted to, I just told the judge I basically had to decide, I’m going to obey you or God. And they pulled it back in and they said, you know, now you’re in contempt of court and these fines are going to be up to $100,000. I think mine that like up to, I don’t know, $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 or something like that, and then had assistant pastor who did the announcement, so they pulled him into and then they gave the church like $100,000. So it was over 200,000, if I remember right.

And then we appealed that to the State Court of Appeals, the Sixth Circuit, and then they finally just got back and recognized that what they had done, the county was actually unconstitutional. So, none of those fines are applicable. And basically, everything that they had done separating all of the millions of dollars were the fines. So that was not brought into the court. So that’s still outstanding and that’s still unresolved.

And so we’re thanking the Lord that we have a court, a judicial system in California, praise God, that actually thinks of the Constitution as something viable. Our county has said at one time, and I think it was a council member, I don’t know who, but our attorneys can tell you that they said that the Constitution doesn’t apply here. And then we had a ruling from the Supreme Court.

We did an amicus brief, which was about, I don’t know, a year ago now, and that’s when the fines stopped somewhere around that time. Then they start fining, that it’s unconstitutional to keep the church from meeting. And that was from the Supreme Court with our name on it. And the county said, we don’t care what the Supreme Court says, more or less. So it’s hard to think there are people in this country that hate the Constitution, they don’t like the Supreme Court. No, I don’t agree with the laws. I think a lot of things are going on are not biblical and not good for society as a whole, but to have an actual group of people that are in office that think it’s better to get rid of the Constitution.

So it’s just kind of a frightful thought. I wouldn’t have thought about a year ago or two years ago, but now I realize it’s blatantly clear that’s what these people think. And they’re in our offices. They’re behind benches and judicial systems. And it’s a heartbreak, but I think they don’t understand, they don’t really know and I think that there is a much of that is for the general public didn’t understand or know.

But there are people in office that clearly know what they’re doing and they’re trying to destroy America. And that is just heartbreaking, sad. But that’s what we’re up against. It’s really a spiritual fight. So, at this point, we seem to have won in the Sixth Circuit of Appeals. They could steal the county, and Williams is their head counsel and he’s basically said that he’s not done, he’s going to keep fighting. And I don’t know, we’re terrible people and he’s going to come back to the church still and take us into, I guess, the state Supreme Court. So that’s kind of where we’re at as of today.

Rick:

I am shocked. I’m silent because I’m shocked. So it was a California court of appeals that found for you guys? I mean, I was thinking you all were in federal court, but a California court of appeals said what they’ve been doing to you has been unconstitutional. Am I hearing that right?

Mike:

Yeah, it’s the sixth Circuit, which is the State Court of Appeal. And they couldn’t have been more explicit now. I’m not a legal expert at all. I’ve learned a lot. And I know I still don’t know very much. But I do know that they could publish or not publish the reason to why they made a ruling. And in our case, they published it and they basically said it’s completely unconstitutional and you can look up what they wrote. But it was very much, so they wanted everyone to know that what our county court had done was just completely wrong and they overturned it in California.

Rick:

Oh, that’s phenomenal. And it also reminds me of how when you guys were facing this and so many of our other friends across the country in the same fight and some of our other friends were constantly say in Romans 13, Romans 13, obey the government, obey the government. And then you realize, wait a minute, the government was the bad actor. The government was not following its own laws. And of course, we the people are ultimately the government.

But I mean, even just the fact that the local government in this case absolutely violated the basic constitutional principles that our nation is built on and yet we were supposed to just bow and just follow whatever they said to do? I’m so glad you didn’t. I’m so glad that you had a better understanding of both Romans 13 and the Constitution and that you stood firm. Otherwise, I think if everybody had bowed, we still wouldn’t have even had the case to show that it was unconstitutional.

Mike:

There are two things that really help me, honestly, is David and you and WallBuilders and I just so appreciate what you guys do because most people don’t understand the Constitution. My older brother, who I left here, he’s like I just read the Constitution a few months ago. He says it’s a fantastic document, the first time in his life. I think that’s what we’re suffering from. But there’s two specific scriptures besides Romans 13. People want to make that argument, and I don’t agree and here’s why.

Now we are to obey the laws that are in the land. And I’ve actually read that chapter, most of it to our county supervisors. When they asked me to go pray several years ago as a chaplain to open up in prayer and they told me I couldn’t pray in Jesus name. And so I read to them Romans 13, and said, listen, I’m going to follow you guys as the laws are good. But when you start to violate God’s law, I’m absolutely not going to obey. And I prayed in Jesus’s name that one of the county supervisors, friend of mine is strong Christian and he’s like, he’s the only one that bowed his head, they won’t even look, they’re just in rebellion against God. And that’s what we have to understand.

Jesus said the things that are happening today is the last days. And I do believe we’re in the last days for a number of reasons. But one thing in particular, Matthew 24, that he says it’s really important for people understand and I think is in verse 12 where he says that in the last days that because iniquity or lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. And that word love is agape, is specifically to the church that the church is going to grow cold in the last days because iniquity or lawlessness.

Bob Tyler, our attorney from Advocates of Faith and Freedom, has done a fantastic job. And he just mentioned this to me a couple of weeks ago. He did Proposition Eight, which is marriage between man and woman in California and Proposition 22. And Bob just loves the Lord, fantastic guy and knows the Word. And he said, you know, I never thought of this before, but I now realize that iniquity is abounding, the lawlessness is abounding today isn’t just civil or moral law that’s been broken, it’s God’s law.

Go back to Genesis, what’s the foundational laws for mankind? And it’s come down to this. He says, a man is a man and a woman is a woman. We are violating these laws of God. The laws of nature and the laws of God are being completely violated. If any pastor in America thinks this is okay, you’re in trouble with God. And another pastor I think about is in Revelation chapter 3, if you look at the seven churches, five of them were told to repent and the doors were closed at the last church, Laodicea.

And what’s remarkable, if you think about the last generation church in America especially, they would say we have more money. And I would say we’ve had more money in this church era in our last generation than any church in the history the last 2000 years. More money, more opportunity, more radio programs, more books been written. But here’s the problem, is if you read that, they said that we are rich, we have need of nothing. But Jesus said you have a huge problem: you’re wretched, poor, miserable, blind and naked, you need to buy from me. I saw so you could see. But it’s also really alarming. And my wife brought this out.

She goes, you know, you think about the shut downs and it’s totally unbiblical. It’s not anything we should follow. I’ve argued with the county lawyers about this. Leviticus 13 says you isolate the sick, you do not isolate the healthy. You guys are going against the history of Western medicine that’s biblical. The foundation that we have in our society for the first time, you think you know about they wanted to argue that point. We went back for like a half hour on that and I just said, no, you guys are wrong and you’re going to learn that.

But the danger I think we have as a church is we’ve closed the doors in following these mandates and what they call science. It’s not science and everyone’s going to realize this was the wrong way to do it if they haven’t already right now. But the danger is that I really believe what Jesus was warning about in the last days, he said perilous times will come, Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 3.

In the last days I think we’re seeing men are lovers of themselves like never before. In this generation loves itself, you look at Facebook and Twitter, all the things that everyone talks about that they want themselves to be famous, but we’ve closed the church doors for the first time in 2000 years. And it says literally in Revelation 3, Jesus says, before they stand at the door and knock.

And here’s what we’ve done, like other churches across the country. We open the door, we get maybe more persecuted than others in our state, but we open the door, and everyone that open the door to their church was extremely blessed. I mean, we’ve had over 800 people baptized that came to Christ. And it’s been a blessing to see many people come and tell us, I wouldn’t be alive at the church doors weren’t open. I’ve heard that from many pastors they testified the same. And I just think it’s a time to open the doors. And I just said, we’re never closing the doors again. All the hospitals in America, evidence from David Barton, actually.

98% of all universities were started by the church, there were seminaries at one time, and they’ve all gone away. And it’s time for the church and specifically pastors to rise up and recognize just like the 27 signers that were pastors were to lead. We’re not to be the tail like in Deuteronomy where God says, I don’t want you as the nation of Israel be the tail, I want to be the head. I don’t want you to be borrowing money. I want you to be lending money.

And you look at every area in our country is because we violated God’s law, we violated the Constitution, they’re in the predicament we’re in. And it’s really the pastors that need to know, I believe, what Caesar says. What does the Constitution say? We need a render to the Constitution what the Constitution wants us to, it’s a good law, it’s founded on God’s law. And it’s heartbreaking to watch some of these churches have been confused in these areas.

But thanks to what you guys are doing and educating and I really believe, you know, hey, fool me once, shame on me, you’re not going to fool me again. These pastors, Lord willing, aren’t going to do it again.

Rick:

That’s right, man. Oh, so much truth in everything you just said. So many different things I’d love to take further if we had more time. But the one I’ll close out with is just the harvest that you just described. I mean, when the church does stand up and do its job and it is salt and light and it follows God’s commands and not government’s commands when they violate His Word, the reward, the harvest that came at your church and so many other pastor friends of ours that did the same thing, it just we saw tremendous growth and so many lives changed and just incredible and just a physical manifestation of proof that you do it God’s way it works best.

I just can’t thank you enough. Mike, God bless you guys for what you’re doing. So thrilled about the victory and looking forward to even more victories down the road as you guys continue to fight for what’s right and stand up against the evil that marched across our country over the last couple of years.

Mike:

Thank you so much, Rick. And yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more. And I see God wanting to do a work. I do see it. And, you know, David is out here last year and he said it was really stuck out to our church. He said, revivals are not measured by how many converts, or people that are baptized, but it’s really by the policies that are changed in the culture. And that’s what I’m praying for. And I really thought that was such a thing to be looking to instead of going, yeah, we want people to get baptized and say we do, we do.

But we really want is an awakening in our culture. And I believe we’re due for really like a third great awakening. And I think the Lord will do it as we pray, as we see him, as we proclaim His Word and stand on truth, and I think God is going to do a work and we’ll look back and say, hey, that was a revival, God did do a work.

Rick:

Amen. Amen. Good stuff. Mike McClure, God bless you, brother. Thank you, Pastor, for joining us today. Appreciate you being with us again.

Mike:

Appreciate you guys. Thank you so much, Rick and David, God bless you all at WallBuilders. Love you guys.

Rick:

That was Pastor Mike McClure. Thanks to him for joining us today. Back with David and Tim. And guys, of course, big victory there, but you can just hear it in his voice. He’s got the resolve to do what’s right and they can throw everything at him and he’s going to still stand firm and just great to have a victory here on this.

David:

Well, it’s really good to hear him talk about Romans 13 the way he did, because we’re hearing so many churches saying, hey, Romans 13 says you just submit to government whatever they say and he said, no, no, no, that’s completely the opposite of what Romans 13 is. And even when they told him he couldn’t pray in Jesus name, it’s like, yeah, what’s this? I’m going to pray in Jesus name.

And so that’s the kind of courage. I thought he had a great point when he said, when God spoke to the seven churches in Revelation to five of the seven churches, he said, repent, you’re not doing what’s right, repent. And he talked about the one church where God says, look, you got everything you need in the way of world’s goods, but you’re really poor spiritually; you don’t have the spiritual stuff.

And I just hear his voice, listen to what he was saying and the kind of confidence and courage and backbone. I mean, you’re just not going to talk him out of doing what’s right. And that’s the kind of stuff, like he said, they’ve had 800 people baptized in this period of time. I mean, this is where you start getting revivals is when you start getting backbone and you start standing up for what’s right regardless of what the culture says. And this is how you start changing the culture rather than the other way around.

Tim:

Well, guys, two thoughts. I mean, dad, as you pointed out, where he got it to Romans 13, I think it’s so important that we have a proper understanding of Romans 13, because there is context to Romans 13 where Paul says that all government it comes from God and our government leaders, they’re representatives of God.

But one of the consistent themes from pastors in the founding era, one of the things that we see for many of the major leader pastors, was they identified what we see clearly in scripture is that there were many times when God’s people rebelled against the governing authority, when the governing authority told them to do something that contradicted what God had told them to do. Where Daniel said, I’m going to keep praying to Jesus and I’m not praying in the king’s name and then three times a day he was still praying in front of his window. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, they said, we’re not bowing down to this idol because we don’t bend the knee to some other God. We only have one God, the true God. You see so many examples in Scripture of this, even from the early apostles, where they would not bow and bend the knee to somebody else.

And there’s a very faulty misunderstanding of Romans 13, where so many Christians say, hey, you just have to do whatever the government says. But that’s not exactly what the Bible teaches. And in fact, if you go to Hebrews 11, the Faith Hall of Fame, the vast majority of the individuals, if not arguably every individual in the Faith Hall of Fame, but at least the vast majority of them at some point committed an act of civil disobedience; and more times than not, when the Bible talks about them having great faith, their great faith was to commit an act of civil disobedience so that they could be obedient to God and honor God.

So this is not rejecting authority, but it’s rejecting ungodliness when the authority tells us to be ungodly. And we’re really running out of time so I can stop there. But that to me is one of the things that we have to make sure that as we even study scripture, that we don’t lose the context of what’s being said and why it’s being said. It’s the reason that, first of all, we use the entirety of the Bible to interpret the Bible, use scripture to interpret scripture. If there’s places where the Bible contradicts, it means we don’t have a deep enough understanding yet. Go back, read, study more, study commentary.

But certainly, I’m so happy that there are guys like Mike standing up, setting the example of what we can truly do as Christians to not let the voice be silenced, to not stop talking about Jesus, to be bold. And he’s seeing growth and transformation. Salvation is incredible stuff. So happy and proud for Mike.

Rick:

Alright, folks, we are out of time for today. Thanks for joining us on WallBuilders Live. Once again, visit that website, wallbuilderslive.com. You can make a one-time or monthly contribution there. You can get access to our archives and you can also check out becoming a biblical citizenship coach or what we call a Constitution coach. We’ve got a lot of different versions of the course available to you, but we give it to you for free. How’s that for a good deal?

Look, we’re going to equip you to be able to be the catalyst in your neighborhood, in your community, in your home, the catalyst for restoring biblical values and constitutional principles. And we give it to you for free. The training is free, all of it. So check it out today at biblicalcitizens.com, that’s biblicalcitizens.com. That course has Kirk Cameron, Charlie Kirk, David Barton, Tim Barton, Bob McEwen, I mean all these folks are in there and it’s a great way for you to learn a biblical perspective on how to be a good citizen right here in the United States of America.

Sure appreciate you listening today. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.