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China Threatens House Churches – With Bob Fu: Are Americans enabling the Chinese Communist Party? Why is the Church and faith such a threat to Communist China? How many concentration camps do satellite images reveal in China? What is the best way to help our fellow Christians in China? Did we miss an important opportunity to boycott the Olympics? Tune in to hear this eye-opening interview with Bob Fu, Senior Fellow for International Religious Freedom at Family Research Council!

Air Date: 02/22/2022

Guest: Bob Fu

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith and the Culture

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. Thanks for joining us on WallBuilders Live, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. You can learn more at our website, wallbuilderslive.com. I’m Rick Green, America’s Constitution coach and a former Texas State Representative. So grateful to have Bob Fu with us. He’s over at our good friends, Family Research Council, senior fellow over there for International Religious Freedom. Bob, thanks so much for your time. Man, thanks for coming on.

Bob:

Thank you, Rick, for having me at WallBuilders.

Rick:

Hey, before we jump into present day, what’s going on with the Olympics and China and the whole nine yards, back up and tell us a little bit of your background. I was reading a little bit and by the way, great article recently on behind the scenes and not forgetting what’s really happening in China. And we’ll get into that. But give us a little background of your experience. I didn’t realize you were a student leader back during Tiananmen Square. I mean, you’ve got some history here with what’s actually happening in China.

Bob:

Thank you, Rick. Yeah, almost 33 years ago, I was at Tiananmen Square in 1989 along with the hundreds of thousands of other students. I lead our university campus for the protest. Mayfly, we were just really asking for the Chinese government Communist Party to engage political reform with more freedom and democracy and less corruption. And, of course, the whole word observed what had happened. The Chinese Communist Party sent military tanks with machine guns and they killed hundreds, if not thousands of innocent citizens.

The Underground Church

And as a result of that, and I became a Christian with the help of American missionaries in our English Literature Department where I was a student. And later on, I became an underground church leader, then establish and registered house church in Beijing and also undergone bible school that led to the arrest of my wife and I in Beijing in 1996.

Rick:

And, Bob, if I could stop you there and just back up, because for us as Americans, when you say underground church, underground Bible school, I mean, that’s hard for us to even get our head around. We have so much freedom here and we’re so used to it. We have no idea what that’s like. Give us a little idea of what that was like, I mean for you to have to meet in secret, basically, is that how work?

Bob:

Yes, we have to actually meet in different locations, sometimes in restaurants, sometimes in the parks. Because technically, the Communist Party would designate any worship service or even a family worship as an illegal religious gathering if you did not get a permission, authorization or registration from the government, Religious Affairs Bureau or State Security Bureau, etc.

Mike:

Imagine that having to have the government tell you it’s okay for your church to me. I can’t imagine that ever happening in America. Oh, wait, no, it’s been happening in the last two years. I’m sorry, Bob, I’m just thinking about some of the restrictions.

Bob:

That’s why California and in New York state they’re doing that, try to regulate church service…

Rick:

But obviously, far worse for you guys, because the punishment for you if you were caught?

Bob:

Imprisonment, so the first three days and nights I still remembered it’s a nonstop 24 hour interrogation for three days and nights. If I just fell a little bit sleepy on that little small stool, the interrogator was smoking at my face and beat me and torturing you. And so it’s kind of a ban. They sent me into a prison cell with other prisoners together. And oftentimes, I mean, I personally observed that those are the prisoners, and after a few rounds of interrogation, they came back by crawling with one arm or one leg both broke and bleeding. So that’s what had happened.

Rick:

While we’re thinking about how bad they treated you for simply gathering to worship, I got to ask, why is the church and faith such a threat to the Communist Party?

Christianity: A Threat to the Communist Party

Bob:

You know, Rick, I have been also searching answer, kind of, in a more conventional way. But really, I think at the end of the day it is as the Bible says, a spiritual warfare. So we’re not really fighting blood and flesh, it is the evil spirit that feel of the Communist Party, I mean, versus really the God’s people. Because after all, the church in China, even those who are persecuted, they are continuing to pray for those persecutors.

I mean, they pray for their repentance and pray for the blessing of that country. And they are the greatest citizens. They are the first group responding to the earthquake in China by sending of their members to, not only doing the rescue, but also to stay there and to even some immigrant to those earthquake impacted area in China taking care of the poor, the needy and vulnerable, the elderly, and yet they are regarded as the enemy of the state. And many, many are being persecuted.

And China has entered into the worst time for religious persecution that we have not seen since the cultural revolution in 1960s. I mean, millions of Chinese Christian children were forced to renounce their faith, by signing government prepared form in public, otherwise they will face the expulsion from the school, and their parents’, grandparents’ government pension will be totally removed as a punishment. Now we have seen really thousands of churches were being destroyed and they’re building were totally demolished and many of the crosses. I mean, this is another way to show you the spiritual war.

It’s after President Xi Jinping, this current dictator took office, he launched the war against the cross. I mean, he made the cross his offense, basically, thousands and thousands of crosses were being taken down, burn out and destroyed from the rooftop of the church building. And every church leader has to plead allegiance to him, to the Communist Party first in public, before they can placed in the church.

I mean, the Gospel so-called was a totally watered down, you have to have your message filtered, examined and passed through the Communist Party, religious affairs atheistic kind of officials examination, basically, to make sure your message is compatible with the socialism and communism teaching. Is that going to be a true gospel faithful to the Bible? You bet not. Right?

Modern-Day Genocide

Rick:

Right. Right.

Bob:

And the Communist Party, I mean, unfortunately, as we all witnessed now, knowing that Chinese Communist Party is engaging modern day genocide, I mean, ethnic cleansing and crime against humanity by putting between 1-3 million this ethnic Uighur, Kazak, moderate to Muslims and Christians alike, these the modern day concentration camp. I mean, this is estimate by the Pentagon and all the renowned world of human rights organizations with the satellite images showing over 360 concentration camps are being put there.

And I mean, the last time this happened was in Hitler’s Germany. So history repeats itself in 1936 of the world reward of Hitler’s Germany with the Berlin Olympics. And now with the modern day happening, the International Olympic Committee with this sponsorship and support by the greedy corporations, the [inaudible 08:50], Nike, NBC, of course, all these companies sponsoring them to host a political show of Beijing Winter Olympics that continue now today.

Rick:

Yeah, and we had an opportunity here, didn’t we, to not participate in that? And I guess, what did we do in 1936? I know, there was a movement to boycott. Did we actually boycott or did we still participate?

Bob:

There was a boycott, I think, yeah, but Hitler was still able to host the Olympics. Back then the Nazis ideology and ethnic cleansing against the Jews in 1936 was not fully manifested yet.

Rick:

Oh, that’s true.

Concentration Camps

Bob:

But now today in 2022, the whole world recognized a genocide is happening. The concentration camps are established with the vivid documentation. And at China Aid as a nonprofit Christian human rights organization based in West Texas, we rescued survivors from this concentration camps.

I mean, last February, a Kazak family we rescued and the mother spent over two years in the concentration camp, I mean, telling the story to new ABC Nightline news crew with Bob Woodward in my office for hours, and kind of breaking the story and really totally devastated even when she recalled when she could not fulfill the quota, like of making exported products in the labor camp, and how she was tortured. I mean, in the tiger chair with her hair tied with bricks in the tiger chair.

So that was clearly credibly documented and with others, and she was forced to even oversee the government organized prostitution effort of these young ladies in the concentration camp. And yet the world still allow a political show by the Communist Party of China who actually deliberately through cover up spread the CCP virus, the Wuhan virus, and whatever you call it, it’s COVID and damaging and really making meetings by such as and we’re still experiencing this until today.

Rick:

What is the best way for an average American that recognizes there’s evil happening in China, and that there’s an underground church there that’s trying to survive? What is the best way for people here to help our fellow Christians in China?

Bob:

Well, thank you for asking that question. I think the spiritual warfare demands a spiritual weaponry, right, as the book of Ephesians chapter 4:6 listed these weapons, I think a prayer is the most powerful weapon. We, the men and women of faith should certainly really pray and before you pray, you should know the facts and what’s really going on. So I do suggest your listeners really come to chinaaid.org, or Family Research Council’s website and also like, Voice of Martyrs, other like [inaudible 12:36] that are supporting, and reporting and be a voice for those voiceless. And it’s chinaaid.org.

And then you can really build a small group to pray and to raise awareness and then take prayerful action by helping these members of Congress, elected officials understand to take a principled stand when they deal with the Communist Party leaders such as Xi Jinping. And we can’t be silenced. We can’t just trade our conscience just because the Communist Party opens a market like it were to the Apples’, the company.

You know what happened to Apple? I mean, the Chinese millions of Apple phone users were totally removed from the Apple story in China for access to any Bible apps. So basically, yeah, voluntarily and comply to the communist party’s request by removing all the Bible-related apps from the Chinese Apple Store in China. I mean, what kind of message were telling to the Communist Party dictators, just purely for the grant, for the money, and we kind of would totally compromise our really foundation. I mean, this country is built by the first freedom, religious freedom, and yet we’re accomplice and enabler and empowering the Communist Party to suppress his people. But God forbid.

It seems the Communist Party after his 70 years persecution, I mean, this is good news that the church has never stopped growing. I mean, the churches in China, despite of in the middle of persecution has been growing so fast. Many estimated the number of Chinese Christians has already reached to over 100-130 million today from 1949 when Communist Party to power There’s 500 fold growth in the middle with persecution. So by 2030, according to Purdue University’s estimated the number of Chinese Christian will reach to at least 224 million, so China will become the largest Christianized nation no matter what.

Rick:

Wow, that’s amazing. I had no idea the numbers were that big. That’s huge. That’s huge.

Bob:

Yeah, it’s huge.

Rick:

And Bob, I wish we could talk more because so many things that you’ve said, and of course, not as severe persecution, but it’s actual persecution, so many things that you’ve talked about we see that creeping into America and creeping into a lot of the Western countries. And we need that warning of where this goes. And so I’m so thankful for your voice out there.

But I really want to encourage people to go to Chinaaid.org, that’s Chinaaid.org, or you can go straight to frc.org, learn more about Bob there as well. We really appreciate what you’re doing, Bob. Thank you so much for coming on the program today. And thanks for helping to keep us informed. Also, we’ll do a link today to the article that you’ve got on the Olympics itself, and what’s going on behind the scenes. But God bless you, brother. Thanks for spending some time with us today.

Bob:

Bless you, Rick, thank you for having me on your platform on the radio and to bless your audience.

Rick:

Stay with us, folks, we’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

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Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks again to Bob Fu for joining us today. Now we’re back. We got David and Tim Barton here now. Alright, guys, what did you all think? You know, obviously, a lot going on that’s not being acknowledged during the Olympics, so trying to make China look as good as possible during this whole thing. So good to have Bob on to talk about what’s really going on behind the scenes, and remind us that we have fellow Christians over there that need our support.

Tim:

Yeah, it’s crazy that we live in a day and age that we have so many corporations, so many organizations, I mean, like the NBA, with actually, Enes Kanter Freedom who’s been speaking out against some of the atrocities, the genocide, the slavery in China and the NBA because they have contracts in China, they won’t back him. You know, other NBA players like LeBron James, who is by his own profession some level of a social justice warrior, but he doesn’t believe in social justice, apparently, for all the people of the world, only for certain groups of Americans, or whatever the case might be, I mean, really falling into that kind of negative notion that America tends to be the bad guy.

And I mean, this is really such a pivotal time when China is striving to be the most dominant superpower anywhere in the world and they have these abysmal morals when it comes to human relations and people in their own nation. And I mean, really, it’s a communist government, it’s on par what communism does, it abuses the people, they murder their own people, just so many negative things.

And with even the Olympics being there, it’s so tough that you have athletes who have dedicated their lives to trying to be able to make it to the Olympics and want to perform for the Olympics. And there’s actually a lot of really great Christians who are a part of these Olympic teams for the US and really even other nations as well, it’d be really hard to say we just need to cancel the Olympics and not show up because I want to have a heart for these athletes that had been training their whole life for these moments.

With that being said, it’s crazy that we’re in a position that a nation that is practicing such evil behavior for their citizens, now for nations around them that we are in a place where the Biden administration and of course, we know that there’s so many individuals in the White House, so many individuals in Congress have very close ties with China and so they won’t come out and acknowledge the evil that China is doing in most cases, where Nancy Pelosi even told their US athletes before they go, hey, make sure you don’t speak out against China because China’s very big and they’re mean and we can’t speak what will happen to you if you over then you talk out against China. Instead of having some backbone and recognizing, nope, we’re a free nation and our athletes if you ask them a question they’re alive to answer based on the question you ask, and we recognize that China’s a big nation doing some evil things. You just see so much kowtowing.

And so, even as we heard in the interview, there is a lot more to the scenario of what’s happening in China. There’s a lot of Christian Brothers over there. But right now with the Olympics, it is an interesting dynamic and interesting time with what’s going on.

David:

And Rick, even hearing Bob talk about how he was at Tiananmen Square, and then his arrest seven years later after became a Christian as a result of Tiananmen Square, and just going back through that, it’s just hard to imagine be in that situation. So he speaks from experience. As you guys were talking, you raised the question of, you know, what is it that communism hates about Christianity? Why did they so hate it? And when you said that, I was really taken back to something that has really kind of stood out to me in the last couple months.

We did the American storybook I guess last year, and it’s done really, really well. But that really just kind of took you up through the end of the 1700s. I mean, we did jump to the end of slavery, but it went through the Constitutional Convention. And then you get the 1800s, so we’re working on the American story and the 1800s, and then also the 1900s, 20th century. And so as I was going through Presidents in 20th century, and going through Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and I say, Franklin Roosevelt because this is when communism really became front and center for America.

Now, communists, you go back to Marx first, but there is no communist nation until you get to Lenin, about 1917 and 1923, now communism comes in, and it’s starting to spread across the world. And it really is a bad philosophy. And we see what it’s doing in nations. And then we get in World War II, and you have Russia as one of the big nations there and it is a massive communist empire at that point.

And so we see real clearly what they do, even though the communists are allies force simply because Hitler went after them, it’s not because we have any philosophical agreements, which has got a common enemy, it’s interesting to see FDR start taking policy positions, where he points out the only solution to not becoming communist is to make sure we’re strongly Christian. And that’s not a matter of personal faith, he made that a matter of public policy.

And then when he died in office in really 44, and then you have Harry Truman comes in, Harry Truman is even more franked with the fact that the only way to keep America from becoming communist is to make sure we stay Christian and biblical. If we ever become secular, we’re going to start buying into all that bad doctrine they have, you’ll start losing the worth of individuals who start emphasizing groups more, you’ll start emphasizing the big government power of the state.

And then after him came Eisenhower, and Eisenhower had fought over there and seen communism firsthand and liberated a bunch of communist nations to get him back from the Nazis. But he saw it. And so when he becomes president, from the day of his inauguration, he starts taking the position that look, this global Communism is sweeping the world. I mean, it ended up that the Soviet Union covered 11 time zones out of the 24 time zones. That’s just amazing. I mean, they were that big.

And so you see, as a matter of public policy, Eisenhower, he says, hey, we need a presidential prayer breakfast, and I’m going to pray in my own inauguration. And we’re going to add “Under God” at the Pledge of Allegiance, and we’re going to make “In God we trust” the national motto, and we’re going to put that on our stamps as well. I mean, he just goes into all these public policy positions and he points out that’s because he wants to fight communism. And I find it really interesting that today we accept communist teaching in American universities and we get Marxism socialism really kind of we tolerate it we don’t really care for. But it’s on campuses, and it’s with kids and that’s where 48% of millennials want to go, so we tolerate it.

And these guys all pointed out that look, socialism, Marxism and communism, they’re all first cousins, and one always brings you into the other. And it’s just interesting to me to hear Bob speak from his perspective of communism. And I don’t think we really have a grasp about how dangerous communism is.

Tim:

Well, I think one of the things too that we’ve pointed out many times before is generally, in nations you see one of two realities, they either have a big God or they have a big government. You know, early America, when the Founding Fathers had a belief in a big God, because they believe there was a God who gave rights to men, and government’s job was to protect those God given rights, we had a limited government. But the more secular a nation becomes, the bigger their government gets. In almost without exception, probably without exception, they begin becoming abusive to the people.

And this is definitely something we’ve seen historically. It’s definitely one of problems out with China. And just to go back a little bit, Rick, we talked through the break, but you all had mentioned 1936 Olympics, and was there boycott or not? One of the really cool artifacts we actually have recently acquired in the collection is the 1936 Olympic torch. We have some actual things from Jesse Owens. And Jesse Owens, not only was a patriotic American, he was also someone who was open about faith.

And this is again where you see a distinguishing characteristic between America even then, but now and China really that faith component is what makes America so difference, or is what makes at this point communist nation is so different. And it’s why they’re threatened by Christianity, because there’s something that is big and powerful beyond government, that is a threat to communism.

China Threatens House Churches – With Bob Fu

And as we’re wrapping up this program, I think also it’s important for us to remember even what he encouraged is that we need to remember our Christian brethren over in China, because this is something that sometimes in America, we feel like we’re dealing with persecution on some level, the government tells us we can’t go to church and we feel like we’re being persecuted. Well, it’s a totally different level when he talks about the underground church. And I’m so grateful you asked him what that look like and what does that mean. And it gives perspective.

So often, in America, we’ve been comfortable in Christianity and maybe even our comforting Christianity is allowed, it cause us to be lazy and allowed some of this nonsense to grow in the nation. But certainly, as we look around the world, I’m very grateful for what God has given us in America. But definitely, we need to make sure we remember our Christian brothers and sisters over in China, and certainly, that we need to be vocal and standing up against some of this communist ideology that’s infiltrating America.

Rick:

Yeah, amen. And so good to have that distinction of the difference between communism and our system of freedom, as David was talking about just the importance of that and recognizing that previous Presidents recognize that, that’s why Eisenhower pushed for the things that he did. It’s kind of time for a resurgence of that in our culture since socialism and communism has become so popular with so many in the country. So this was a great reminder of just how evil communism is.

We’ll have links to everything we talked about today so you can get to those different organizations and also to Bob’s article on our website at wallbuilderslive.com. Thanks so much for listening to wallbuilderslive live.