Christopher Columbus And Native Americans Facts: It”€™s Foundations of Freedom Thursday, a special day of the week where we get to answer questions from you, the listeners! Always answering your questions from constitutional principles! Tune in today as we answer your most pressing questions!

Air Date: 10/17/2019

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Be At All Times Armed

Thomas Jefferson said, “€œThe constitutions of most of our states, and of the United States, assert that all power is inherent in the people that they may exercise it by themselves that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. That they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press.”€

Faith and the Culture


Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we”€™re talking about today”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture; always doing that from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker, pastor and president of WallBuilders, and my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator, national speaker, and author.

Visit Us Online

You can find out more about us at our two websites:, our radio site. Then, go over to, our main site, where we have some great resources. You can take a constitution class or find all kinds of curriculum for your family to study, get into your Sunday school class, or even just for your own learning.

At the radio site,, you’ll get a list of all our stations. You’ll be able to get into the archives of the program over the last few weeks, where you”€™ll find interesting interviews, Good News Friday programs, and more. And, you can also make a donation there.

So, be sure to click on that “€œdonate”€ button if you like what you hear today and you want more of this education and want to help equip and inspire folks all over the nation to get involved and be a part of the solution for preserving freedom. Donate to WallBuilders Live! It’s what makes this possible.

It”€™s Foundations of Freedom Thursday, a special day of the week where we get to answer questions from you, the listeners! If you have a question, send it in to [email protected]. You guys ready for the first question?


Let’s do it.


Yeah, let’s go for it.


All right. The first question is going to be about the Constitution: “€œI was having a conversation on the Electoral College and the 10th Amendment with a sister in Christ recently, and we got to addressing the subject of labor unions.”€

Now, first of all, guys, just the beginning of this question: two people were having a conversation on the Electoral College and the 10th Amendment. I love that. This is actually from one of our Constitution hosts out there who’s doing Constitutional Alive!

in their home, having other people come in and study.

Should State Legislatures Ban Unions?

Here’s what he asked: “€œThe two of us agreed that unions are not biblical. But, where we disagreed is on the idea that there should be a law passed in each prospective state legislative chamber to make forming unions within the state illegal. I agree with Samuel Adams when he warned that neither the wisest Constitution, nor the wisest laws will secure the liberties and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.”€

So, guys, I think the question is whether or not we should support the idea of state legislatures actually banning, making it illegal to have unions. What do you think?


I would be opposed to that and don’t think you should pass a law doing that. That violates the freedom of association, freedom of assembly. If people want to get together on that”€”now, I wouldn”€™t support anything that wants to get together.

If you had Sharia groups get together to overthrow the United States, I would not support them getting together for that purpose. I wouldn’t object to them getting together unless their purpose is to do violence.

But, that’s not what unions are and is not what we’re talking about. So, for this kind of a thing, I think you have the right of association, the right of assembly. And, when you look at the unions, if we just let the free market have its course, we wouldn’t have unions by and large.

Now, I say that; you might have some, but they would be kind of like dinosaurs. Right now we know that only about six percent of the nation is in unions. And, most of those are government-run unions.

The government props them up. They are what we call “€œpublic-sector unions.”€ So, the free market has basically put unions out of business by competition. And, the problem with the government propping it up is, not only are they propping it up; but, you have things that like the Davis Bacon Act.

The Davis Bacon Act

The Davis Bacon Act is a federal piece of legislation that goes back decades that says, “€œIf you’re going to spend federal money on any kind of infrastructure projects: roads, airports, highways, or whatever it is, then you have to pay union wages.”€ Now, you know what? This is just hypothetical numbers; but, they’re kind of in the ballpark.

If union wages require that I start someone at 16 bucks an hour and I get a private company does the same job for ten bucks an hour, in the federal government I’m going to save about 40 to 45 percent. But, the law requires that we spend the maximum amount on labor, even if we can get it cheaper. So, everything has to be done at a union level.

That’s the Davis Bacon Act, federal funding and construction etc. So, if we could get the federal government to not prop it up by Davis Bacon, get the state and federal governments not to prop it up by public-sector unions, we wouldn’t even be talking about unions in general. The free market”€™s already taking care of them because you can get just as good a product for a whole lot less.

So, I don’t think you need to do a law and don’t think you should do a law.


And, unions made sense it at some points when there was corruption. Oftentimes, the unions are more necessary where the governments are helping run organizations, because you tend to have more corruptions in those situations. So, unions actually make sense in some scenarios.

The Free Market is the Best Regulator.

But, Dad, as you were mentioning, the free market is one of the best governors of behavior because if somebody is bad, you’re not gonna work for him, you’re gonna work for somebody else. And, if he’s mistreating his employees, you don’t want to spend your money there.

The free market really is the best regulator of business behavior. And, the only way that corruption can really continue on some levels is when the government has set up loopholes and regulations and is helping prop up some of these things where people are using some of those loopholes and regulations to continue in their corrupt practices and profit.

So, overall, yes. There’s nothing, even historically, where the Founding Fathers would be against this. Arguably, you could look at the Sons of Liberty as a union because they were”€”now, obviously different context, very different idea.

But, as a group of people coming together saying, “€œWe’re not gonna put up with a certain behavior but are going to do these kind of things.”€ And so, unions are just groups of people working together to accomplish an end goal and a purpose. And, there’s nothing biblically or constitutionally, certainly, against that notion.

But, in a true free market, you don’t need unions. And, Dad, as you mentioned, if it wasn’t for the federal government propping up unions, there really wouldn’t be many in existence in America today.


Yeah, I would just echo everything you guys said. I mean, it’s a free-market thing. If people want to come together and have that freedom of association, that”€™s all fine.

But, leave it up to the market. If government wasn’t involved in it, it wouldn’t even be a problem. Great question from our listener.

We’ve got more questions loaded and ready to share with you. So, stay with us. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live!

President Thomas Jefferson said, “€œI know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society, but the people themselves. And, if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.”€

Moment From American History

This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment in American history. America is a special and unique nation. The average length for a constitution in other countries is only 17 years. But, we’ve had ours for over two centuries. Our 4 percent of the world’s population produces 24 percent of the world’s gross domestic product and every year we produce more inventions and technology than the other 96 percent of the world combined.

In 1831 Alexis de Tocqueville of France came to America, traveled the country, and in his famous book, “€œDemocracy in America” reported, “€œThe position of the Americans is therefore quite exceptional. It may be believed that no Democratic people will ever be placed in a similar one.”€

This is the origin of the phrase “€œAmerican exceptionalism”€ and affirms that America is unique because of the distinctive ideas on which we’ve been based. Including in inalienable rights, individuals, and limited government, and the importance of religion, and morality. For more information about American exceptionalism go to

Abraham Lincoln said, “€œWe the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts. Not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”€


Welcome back to WallBuilders Live! Thanks for staying with us today. It”€™s Foundations of Freedom Thursday, which means we’re taking your questions, whatever they may be.

They could be about Founding Fathers, about a constitutional issue, about something happening in Congress right now. Or, a question might be a biblical-perspective question.

Whatever you”€™ve got, send them in to [email protected]. David and Tim Barton are ready to after answer questions. And here comes the next one.

Encouraging Christian Parents Not put Their Children in Public Schools

It’s from Russell. He said, “€œDear friends at WallBuilders, I have a question for your Thursday program. Shouldn’t we be encouraging Christian parents to not put their children in secular public schools?

“€œOur churches are struggling because young people are dropping out of church in their teenage years. I think the reason for that is because of what they’re being taught in the public schools. We”€™re hurting for Christian leaders, such as pastors to fill our pulpits and missionaries that go out to start churches here in the states and on mission fields around the world.

“€œMy wife and I’ve spent 37 years as missionaries in Argentina. We started three churches while we were over there. Two of them are still functioning.

We’ve been retired now for 10 years. I enjoy listening to your program on BOTT Radio out of Poplar Bluff, Missouri.”€

Thank you, BOTT Radio.

“€Keep up your good work that you’re doing for our country.”€ So, Russell, great question. David, Tim, it’s really that simple. Should we be encouraging people to not send their kids to the secular public schools, but instead send them into Christian schools or homeschool so that they get a better foundation and are more likely to be the Christian leaders of tomorrow that we need?


Well, the answer is an obvious “€œyes.”€ We want to send them to a place that’s going to encourage them and godly behavior, godly values, and biblical principles. Right?

As you read through the Old Testament, this is something that was very clear when God, through Moses, was telling the Israelites: “€œHey, when you’re raising up your kids, you need to have things in place. And, when you build this altar and write this on the doorpost of your house and are teaching your kids, everything revolves around a spiritual atmosphere.”€

Secular Education is Not the Only Reason for Church Problems

But, I think one thing I would potentially”€”guys, tell me what you think. I would potentially disagree with the notion that the reason less of our kids are in church is because of a secular education they’re getting. Now, certainly that might play a part of it.

But, I would argue it’s a lot more than that in a lot of {respects}. Certainly, culture is huge and impactful. The schools are usually impactful.

But, I think a lot of times, we can point to parents, to the churches themselves. In a lot of what we are doing, I think what we see a lot from young people, are kids want things that are relevant, practical, relational, connecting. If they see something modeled in their home and grow up in a stable home environment, right?

Kids Need a Home with a Stable Mother and Father

This is one of the things that, statistically, we know the best indicator of emotional stability, academic achievement, success, economic stability”€”you can go down a very long list, but the point is: where you find the most benefit for kids, for children, is when they are in a home where there is a mother and a father. And, this includes the same thing with faith.

If they are in a home with a mother and father who are people that spend time reading their Bible, praying, treating each other with kindness and respect, making church a priority; you find that in their kids”€™ lives too. What we see more often is a lot of times, parents don’t make faith a reality in their life. I mean, they might be faithful church attenders; but, they’re cussing, drinking, or not really living the same biblical standards at home that we might promote.

Kids hate hypocrisy. And, they hate it whether it’s in their parents or whether it’s in another adult like a coach, teacher, culture around them. Kids hate hypocrisy; they want authenticity.

And, they’re looking again for something relevant and genuine. I think a lot of times churches too, with kids ministry, spend more time trying to entertain kids then trying to feed, grow, and disciple them. And so, I think it’s not just education that’s a problem.

Although {when talking about} education there, there are a lot of reasons to stay away from public schools. This might be one of them; but, I don’t know this is the leading factor of why kids are not going to church.

Now, those are just my thoughts. What do you think? Are public schools maybe a reason kids aren’t going to church anymore; or, is there something else beyond that?


Well, the key was, and I think the question was right that secular education is what is causing us to lose our kids. But, I think you also hit it with What is secular education? It is not just public schools.

Secular Education is Everywhere

You can go to a Christian school and get a secular education or get it from your church. Secular education can also come from parents.

I mean, if you’re not teaching a biblical worldview, you’re teaching a secular education. And so, you can get it on TV or social media. I think the key is a secular education, not just the source of where it comes, because like you said, Tm, it”€™s not solely from public school.

Churches and youth groups are as responsible. There are a whole lot of youth leaders that have a secular viewpoint; they don’t think biblically. So, I think it goes with all that.

But, the more secular education you get in the general sense of education, not just school education but the general sense, the more you’re going to be less attached to church and to religious activities or principles.


Yeah, I agree with both of you it’s”€”we used to have movements in the church that would say, “€œAnybody who sends their kids to public schools is being a terrible parent,”€ or whatever. And, I’m not sure that’s the right approach either.

There are still some small public schools that have some good values there in their local communities. Man, it’s becoming more and more rare. So, I tend to lean towards encouraging Christians to get those kids out of that environment that’s tearing down– just like you’re saying”€”everything that we believe and everything that we’re trying to teach at church.

No wonder they’re leaving at the end of that. So, no question. Overall, I would argue ninety-nine percent of the cases, yeah, you should be looking at an education that is going to back up what you’re teaching at home and what you’re teaching at church instead of tearing it down.

And, that’s not just for your kid and family. That’s going to have an impact on your community and on our nation. We need more Christians raising up those leaders, just like Russell is asking us about today.

So, very good question. We’ve got more questions for you, so stay with us. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live!

Be At All Times Armed

Thomas Jefferson said, “€œThe constitutions of most of our states, and of the United States, assert that all power is inherent in the people that they may exercise it by themselves that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. That they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press.”€ America’s Hidden History


Hi, this is David Barton.


And, this is Tim Barton, and we want to let you know about a series that’s happening right now on TBN on Thursday night. TBN is the Trinity Broadcasting Network. Every Thursday night, there’s a series that we’ve filmed called America’s Hidden History.

And, this season is called “€œAmerica’s Hidden Heroes.”€ The reason is, we highlight heroes from American history. For years we’ve been focusing on the forgotten history and heros of the nation.

And now, we have a TV show just highlighting some of those heroes.


These are inspiring stories about some of the greatest people maybe you’ve never heard about. We go on location to the sites and show you where the events happened. It’s the stories of folks like Bronco Charlie, Stagecoach Mary, Jedediah Smith, Robert Smalls, and so many inspiring folks.


Now, this happens every Thursday night, and the time is gonna be different based on where you live. Either way, we think this is something that will so encourage and inspire you in learning some of these great stories for America’s Hidden History.

Greatest Political Privilege

President Calvin Coolidge said, “€œThe more I study the Constitution, the more I realize that no other document devised by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity. To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.”€


We’re back now on WallBuilders Live! Thanks for staying with us on this Foundations of Freedom Thursday. If you”€™ve got a question, send it in [email protected].

This question was sent in by Patricia. She said, “€œI read most of your August 3, 2017, broadcast on Indians.”€

Now, folks at home, when she says she “€œread our broadcasts,”€ that’s because we have transcripts of our broadcasts there at our website, You can click on the link to those archived programs and actually listen to it or even go in and read. That’s all available there at

At any rate Patricia says, “€œThank you. My question is: Did the Native Americans own every inch of land in North America? I understand that some land was purchased from them and some land was taken from them.

“€œBut, surely they did not own every inch of land. And, of land that was taken, was any of it given back? Thank you.”€

So, David, Tim, this is one that if you just go through the basic education system in America, all you believe is Native Americans owned everything. We killed them to take it. And, you know, white man is the bad guy in every single scenario.

So, with that as a basis and a starting point, you guys have about three minutes to solve this very big question. Go ahead.

The Native Americans and White Guys


It’s really easy. The Indians in America and North America had absolutely no problems of any kind until the white guys arrived. When the white”€”


Right. Right.


Everything that happened to them was because of the white guy. Oh, by the way, before Columbus set foot anywhere in this Western Hemisphere, documented records from what we know and what we’re able to find, is somewhere between 20 and 40 percent of Native Americans were enslaved by other Native Americans.


And, by the way, that’s not just what we have documented and been able to find. That is what other historians have documented. And, that’s what we have found from their documented records.

So, this is not coming from WallBuilders, the Bartons, Rick Green, or the Christian conservative. Nope. These are other professors who have done the research into Native American culture and discovered that at least one-fifth of every native in early America was enslaved at the time Columbus landed.

Conquest Has Been a Part of Life for Ages

And so, conquest, capturing, killing, enslaving was a normal part of life. And, that wasn’t normal just in Europe or just in Asia. This was just humanity as a whole.

This was just kind of the way of the world, and the way of the world did not skip the Native Americans who were here.


That”€™s right.


Because, again, scholars believe at least one-fifth were enslaved before Columbus had even landed.


Part of that, Tim, is even if you look at the example in America of Native American tribes like the Comanche”€”the Comanche men grounds ran from Canada down to Mexico and from the Mississippi over to Arizona. That’s massive.


With a lot of other Indian tribes living there at the same time, who they were warring against.


But, it’s not like the Comanche started something. I mean, you go back to the first contact in Mexico with the Spaniards. When the Spaniards arrived, you see the same thing.

Cortez and the Aztecs


Yeah. You go down to Central America when Cortez is landing and has 500 men, he ends up defeating the Aztecs. It”€™s estimated that the Aztecs had millions of people at that time. How did 500 Spaniards defeat millions of people?

Well, it’s also believed that his army grew to more than 50,000 people as he was fighting the Aztecs. The reason was, the Aztecs where the largest tribe, estimated at that time to have millions of people, and part of their worship was to the sun god. That worship to the sun god involved human sacrifice, and they didn’t sacrifice their own tribe.

They would go conquer other tribes and use them for human sacrifice. When Cortez went to one of these Aztec temples, it was reported that there were tens of thousands of human skulls beside the temple where they would sacrifice and throw these heads and bodies down on the side. And so, as Cortez as now coming, being the conquering hero so to speak, there are other tribes who are tired of being murdered and having their families sacrificed by the Aztecs, so they join Cortez.

And, this is part of how Cortez was able to defeat the Aztecs. But, it does give a lot of context to understand that even though we can look historically go, “€œMan, there were some of the Indians who did amazing things,”€ right? Geronimo was an amazing Indian.



An Honest View of History


Now, he was savage. He was a warrior who did a lot of bad things. But, this dude was amazing, just as a warrior in general.

It was estimated that he could run still up to 90 miles in one day. In one day he could run 90 miles a day in his 60s.

Well, that’s my morning workout, guys, come on. It’s no big deal.


Not 90 feet a day, Rick, 90 miles a day, bro.



That”€™s amazing.


Still, in that context, Geronimo was a vicious guy who did a lot of savage things; but, you can look at some Native Americans and still appreciate so much of the value of some of what they accomplished, who they were, and what they did. There were some special things. But, to imagine that”€”

Dad, as you alluded to jokingly, that they didn’t have any problems until the white man arrived, it’s a very dishonest and disingenuous look at history. We’re not being intellectually honest to make those statements.

The Comanche


Coming back to the Comanche, that’s like the Aztecs. The Comanche is the North American version of the Aztecs in Central America because the Comanche were finally conquered. And, granted, the conquering or the subduing of the Comanche occurred in Texas, and it occurred out by our ranch.

We’ve got a wild-west fort out there, Fort Richardson. And, Fort Richardson is where so many attacks against the Comanche were launched. But guess what.

There were 13 Indian tribes that joined the calvary to say, “€œWe”€™ve got to stop the Comanche because they’re killing us. They’re destroying us and have taken everything we’ve got.”€

So, it’s not like the native tribes all lived peacefully with each other and owned every inch of land. Now, somebody’s probably owned the land; but, they took it from each other so often. One student asked me this at a Bible college one time.

They said, “€œWhite guys took the land.”€ I said, “€œLook. As far as I know, Adam and Eve owned everything; so, other than Adam and Eve, it’s all been taken from somebody at some point in time.”€

Some of it was purchased; other parts were taken. But, in and North America, it was largely taken: one Indian tribe taking it from another. The Comanche took it from the {Tonkawa, who} took it from the Delaware, from the all the different tribes. And, that’s just the way of the world.

The Jacksonian Era


And, to this question, where certainly as we look forward in history, when you get to the Jacksonian Era, there was a lot of wrong that was done to the Indians.




There was a lot of land that was stolen, and the land was not given back. And so, this is something you certainly can look at and see the abuse and the atrocity. We can point to specific individuals who were leading these movements and go, “€œWhat they did was evil, and it was very, very bad.”€

So, has land been stolen from the Indians? Absolutely, land has been stolen from the Indians. In the Jacksonian Era, really from that point forward, there are a lot of atrocities happening. Now, you could still point to a lot of Indian tribes who were still trying to be conquering warriors and were doing bad things.

But, a lot of the view we have of the relations with Americans, or Anglos so to speak, Europeans and Native Americans, is really from the mid-eighteen hundreds coming forward. If you back up before that, there’s a lot more complexity. And, there’s actually a lot less abuses than you would imagine from the Anglos, or the early settlers, against the Indians.

Certainly there are some occasions of it; but, not nearly what is portrayed today. In fact, for a lot of the early settlers coming, they actually purchased the land which has been fairly-well documented.



And, if you look even at the purchasing of land and taking of land from the Indians, Indians also took land from each other. And, one of the great examples is that when William Penn in England, was given by the king, the land that the king called “€œPennsylvania,”€ named after William Penn’s father Admiral Penn, he said, “€œLook.

“€œI owe your dad a lot of money and can’t pay it; so, let me just give you a bunch of my land in the New World.”€ So, he names that Pennsylvania and gives it to William Penn.

William Penn gets over and says, “€œLook. I understand it’s not the King’s land to give. I need to buy this from the Indians.”€

So, he goes to the tribe that possesses that land of Pennsylvania. And so, he buys this land from the first tribe, gets the treaty signed, and got the deed to it and everything. Then tribe two comes along says, “€œWait a minute.

“€œThat was our land. Tribe one took the land from us. You really just purchased our land because it was ours before that other tribe stole it.”€

And so, Penn says, “€œGot it; so, I’ll pay you.”€ So, he paid the second tribe. Then, tribe three comes along and says, “€œWell, tribe two took it from us, and tribe one took it from them. You need to pay us too.”€

So, he ends up paying three different tribes for that land. Literally, you have three tribes. It has been taken from the other tribes by the two tougher tribes, apparently, at the time.

Human Nature Has the Same Problem Wherever it Is.

And, William Penn, in wanting to do the right thing, actually purchased the same land multiple times because the Indians had taken it from each other. So, you know, Tim, you started out this segment saying, “€œThis is just human nature. It”€™s what people are, and this is what people do.”€

And, just because you happen to be Indian rather than Anglo, or because you happen to be Spanish rather than African, or whatever it is, human nature has the same problem wherever it is. And, it was that way with Native Americans before Anglos ever showed up. It was that way, just because that’s human nature.


Guys, we are out of time for today. Folks at home that enjoyed this Foundation of Freedom Thursday, you can get more those great questions and answers on our website at By the way, ask those questions in your community as well.

Christopher Columbus And Native Americans Facts

In fact, the question we had today about Indian lands and ownership of land, would be a great one. Ask your friends and family: Did the Indians own every square inch of the New World? And, how was it resolved?

Those are great questions to get your friends and family talking about it. Then, you can use today’s program to answer those questions as well. We sure appreciate you listening today.

You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live!

Questions of Power

Jefferson said, “€œIn questions of power, then, let no more be heard of
confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the