Counselors Are Not Allowed To Give Biblical Advice In Some States: Later in the program, Stephen Black will be with us. He’s going to be talking about how we’ve got laws being passed in and states that are saying you cannot give advice to someone that’s in the LGBT community and wanting to get out of it. Tune in now to learn more!

Air Date: 08/29/2018

Guest: Stephen Black

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.


Tags: Stephen Black, Wikipedia, reparative therapy, pseudoscience, LGBTQ

Faith And The Culture


Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture.  This is WallBuilders Live! We”€™re talking about today”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture. We always do that from a biblical historical and constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and the Founder of our organization here called WallBuilders. Which comes from the scripture in Nehemiah that says, “€œArise and rebuild the walls that we may no longer be a reproach.”€

That’s what we’re doing here on this radio program and with our organization WallBuilders, we’re rebuilding the foundations. We’re bringing back the truth of what the nation was built upon and these foundational, timeless principles of liberty that produce great results.

Bringing Back The Truth Of What The Nation Was Built Upon

We’re also here with Tim Barton. He’s a national speaker and pastor and the president of WallBuilders. My name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas legislator.

You can find out more about us at, our radio site. That’s got a list of all of our stations, it also has recent programs in the last two or three weeks. You can get some of our Good News Friday programs, some of those Foundations of Freedom Thursday programs, and then some of those great interviews that we get the opportunity to get on Monday through Wednesday. Also, go to for materials that can equip, inspire, and educate you and your family. So check out as well today.

Laws Passed Saying You Can”€™t Give Advice

Later in the program, Stephen Black will be with us. David, Tim, he’s going to be talking a little bit about something that has become very controversial. It used to be that if somebody had an issue and they went for counseling that was between them, their counselor, their pastor, or whoever they were going to get help from.

But now we’ve got laws being passed in states that are saying, “€œYou cannot even recommend or give advice to someone that’s dealing with sexual sin and wanting to get out of some sort of deviancy. Or something that’s outside of God’s design for sex.”€

You can’t even tell them that there’s good counseling out there, you can be breaking the law in doing that. It’s unbelievable how far we’ve gone to protect the LGBT community in this way.


Yeah, but Rick, who are we to say what sexual sin is? Right? Who are we to say what’s inappropriate? Who are we to say what should and shouldn’t be done? This is one of the great ironies with this postmodernist, existentialist, relativistic, subjective morality culture we live in.

One of the things that we read in the Bible, in The Book of Judges, when the Israelites rejected God rejected and his commands and didn’t follow what the prophets told them, what the Judges specifically told them, it says in a couple of places in Judges that the people did what was right in their own eyes.

Who Are We To Say What Sexual Sin Is

One of the things that’s even kind of interesting about this, not only are people determining what is appropriate. They”€™re determining what isn’t appropriate. So it is appropriate for there to be no sexual boundaries. But it’s not appropriate for you to suggest there should be sexual boundaries.

How do we know that’s not appropriate? Because the other side told us that’s not appropriate. Because their feelings, their opinion says, “€œYou’re not supposed to do that.”€

And we’re not allowed to go by our feelings, our thoughts, our decisions, or what traditional values have been for thousands of years.  

This is where it’s so interesting the way that we determine even what is appropriate and what’s inappropriate when it comes to boundaries, when it comes to morality, when it comes to sexuality. We have a culture that is saying, essentially, the only wrong thing to do is tell someone they’re wrong.

The Only Wrong Thing To Do Is Tell Someone They’re Wrong


Isn’t that sad from the standpoint of people are hurting and wanting help. If you’ve got someone that’s addicted to alcohol, drugs, gambling,  pornography, or whatever. Some addiction that’s costing them time, money, peace of mind, their family, all those things and they’re going, “€œI need help. I want help. I want out of this. I want to do what’s right. And I want to restore my family. I will restore health and I want to restore all these things.”€

And we”€™re gonna say, “€œOh no. We wouldn’t want to help you. You have to stay in that thing that’s hurting you and causing pain in your life. Because that’s the only way that we can celebrate and give a rubber stamp to the people that want to stay in that particular area.”€


It’s one of the things that seems very complicated about even the position of the left on this situation when it comes to sexual boundaries. Because, they would say, “€œYou are free to choose whatever you want. Unless you are choosing something we don’t like then you’re not free to choose.”€

For example, human sexuality. They are choosing a male-male relationship, right? Homosexual, lesbian relationship whatever that alphabet soup is. Whatever thing they’ve picked.

If they’ve chosen that and the left has come out supporting them. And they go, “€œI really don’t think I want to be here anymore. Something about it doesn’t feel right. Something on the inside of me. I know this is not who I am anymore.”€

The left would say, wait a second. We will encourage you. And we will promote you. Don’t deny who you are. We don’t care that you chose that in the first place because of abuse in your past. Because of whatever happened when you were a child. Or because of the fact that your father was absent in the home.

We don’t care what led you there.  We don’t care that maybe you want to find inner healing. You need to keep embracing the lifestyle that we think is the most beneficial.

At that point you don’t become free to choose if you are choosing something opposite of what they are promoting. It’s one of the things we talked about the intolerant of the tolerant. What this case would be is the lack of choice. Of the pro-choice.

The Lack Of Choice – Lack Of Pro-Choice


What you guys are talking about is formally known as reparative therapy or conversion therapy. By the way, let me just give you a good definition. For a liberal topic, there’s no place better to go than to the liberal encyclopedia, Wikipedia. When you look at Wikipedia on what conversion or what reparative therapy is and that’s what is called. Here’s the definition from Wikipedia.

“€œConversion therapy is the pseudoscientific practice of trying to change an individual’s sexual orientation from homosexual or bisexual to heterosexual using psychological or spiritual interventions.“€

The whole definition takes on a tone. It’s filled with tones. It’s a pseudoscientific practice. What if it actually works? What if we have abundant evidence that this actually works? Is it pseudoscientific?

Pseudoscientific Practice


By the way, let me even point out, it seems to be, in this case that the individuals who are are getting this pseudoscientific help are being compelled to do it.  What if someone who grew up and decided to embrace a homosexual lesbian lifestyle says, “€œI don’t want to do this anymore. Can somebody help me? I want to be different.”€

In this situation, it seems to be giving a definition as if they were being forced to change not that they are wanting of themselves to be different and to ask someone to help me be different.


And we”€™re forcing you to change by a spiritual intervention. So, we’re now using religion as coercion and that’s the tone of this. Now here’s the thing-

15 States Ban From Getting Counseling


By the way David, to pass laws that don’t even allow you to help that person. Or that person to be able to go get that kind of help. It’s like a mafia situation.  It”€™s like once you’re in you can never get out. That”€™s basically what they”€™re saying.


Here’s how serious it is. Fifteen states currently have laws banning you from going to get counseling. If you want counseling you cannot get it.


Well, you can”€™t get this kind of counseling.


You can’t get counseling for what you”€™re wanting.


Well, that”€™s what they define as reparative therapy. So you can’t get that kind of counseling.


Or Conversion therapy.


Right, you can’t get that kind of counseling. You can get counseling that says, “€œNo you’re fine. Just keep embracing your life. Don’t change who you’ve chosen to be or who you were born to be.”€ So it’s not that they’re against counseling. They will allow you to get counseling. You just can’t get the counseling that would try to help you change. If you in fact wanted to change.



See, here’s the other thing that I asked when I see this is.  Who”€™s the one who gave it the title “€œConversion Therapy”€ or “€œReparative Therapy?”€ That’s given by the left, by the LGBTQ. They want to make it sound bad and they’re going to convert you. That’s their whole negative tone in this thing.

They’re always saying that it’s just faith guys that hate science. Well, how about the LGBTQ side that hates science? Because they’re all for gender identity even though we still only have an X and Y chromosome.  You can choose what you want. But science is real clear, there’s only two genders.

How about all these actual scientific studies that are out there on people who literally leave the homosexual lifestyle. No, we don’t agree with that. So who’s anti-science here?  Who is the intolerant here? “€œWe’re not going to allow you to get counseling that you want to let you become what you want to become. We are going to keep you what we want you to be.”€  This thing just stinks in so many different levels.

No Counseling Any Students Who Want To Leave Homosexual Lifestyle

But you have 15 states. By the way, there are now 50 cities in conservative states where they haven’t passed this ban. They now in their cities like Cincinnati, I think it is and Reading, Pennsylvania. They say in the schools you cannot counsel any student who wants to leave a homosexual lifestyle.


I have a question. How is it any different to counsel someone that is a sex addict? And it can be heterosexual sex, right?  But you’ve got someone who’s a sex addict that has destroyed their family or whatever and the wife’s left. It’s a horrible situation.

They”€™re going, “€œMan, I want to get my life right.  I want to get over this addiction. So that I can have a family again in the future.”€

So, they go get help with that sex addiction or that sexual lifestyle that they had been addicted to or had chosen to participate in.  How’s that any different to counsel them and help them? Versus counseling and helping someone with a same sex attraction that says, “€œNo, I want to have a regular natural marriage. And I want to get away from this.”€  That seems like that’s what counseling is for.

What If They Applied The Same Ban To Alcoholism?


Rick, consider how illogical this practice would be in any other field. Let’s say that all the liquor distributors got together and said we’re not going to allow any counseling for people who have alcohol abuse. You cannot get out of that. We’re going to make sure you stay like that.

The entire nation would go on uproar. If you’ve got a problem, we want to help you get out of that problem. But in this case is accepted. That’s what’s wrong with it. Stephen Black heads a group that’s been around for 40- 50 years and they are really good.  They have all these scientific stats on how many people have actually left the LGBTQ lifestyle.

So, there are stats there. This is not fake science. This is stuff that actually affect human lives. It”€™s a great story, great stuff that they have on this.


Stay with us folks, Stephen Black our special guest. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live!

Front Sight Handgun Training.


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Politically Can People Recommend Help?


Welcome back. Thanks for being with us here on WallBuilders Live! Stephen Black is with us. He”€™s one of the founders of Restored Hope Network, serves as the chairman there and also is the executive director of First Stone Ministries in Oklahoma City. Stephen thanks for coming on, man!


It is my pleasure, truly.


Hey, there’s a lot of talk right now politically about whether people can even recommend any kind of counseling or therapy for someone that wants out of the gay lifestyle and same sex attraction. Some people are even passing laws saying that you can’t even recommend that or that it doesn’t work. You guys have had experience with this for decades and seen incredible life changing affirming results.


That’s right. First Stone Ministries has been around for over 45 years. We’ve been helping people overcome sexual and relational brokenness of all sorts. Primarily our mission was to help the person who had unwanted homosexual life, same sex attractions, or confused about their gender to resolve that through a biblical Orthodox worldview pastoral care offering. We have had really great results.


You’re talking about not anecdotal? If I read right, over 1,200 different client interactions, that you comment on in your book Freedom Realize so this is not one or two situations. You guys have a lot of  statistical data to back up what we’re talking about.


That’s right. Over 25 years of ministry with twelve hundred intact client folders. We were able to actually contact 500 of those people. Of course trying to get somebody to fill out a survey it’s like pulling teeth.

We were able to get a little less than half those people to do that. In doing so, we found out that these people were living lives that were completely in alignment with a surrendered life to Jesus Christ as Lord and not putting on this now trendy gay Christian label. They’re actually surrendered with an identity that’s in Christ and not connected to that LGBTQ world.


Well, you mentioned this new trendy, I”€™m gay and a Christian popularity that’s going on in major churches across the country. What do you guys say to that? How do you respond to that? That’s like the church has just said, “€œWell, we feel like we haven”€™t been able to to change this or combat this. We’re just going to accept it and say we’re just going to love everybody and everybody loves Jesus. And you don’t have to try to renew your mind.”€

Biblical Teachings Can”€™t Be Left Out Of The Church


Well, if my audience is to the church and to pastors, I’m going to say you’re offering a really poor biblical offering, you’re offering poor theology. It’s not what the gospel promise. The promises that Grace will come into a person’s life. The Holy Spirit and the Word of God in the mixture bringing a soul alive to God will bring about incremental change to a place where they’re on a trajectory of sanctification becoming more like Jesus, so that the internal world does change.

They’re actually putting people in bondage by making them live out an identity, a sin construct identity called gay, lesbian, or transgendered before the name of Jesus Christ. That in itself is somewhat I find blasphemous to actually put something that the scripture communicates is so contrary to even the will of God.

Sexual immorality, or the idea of that in behavior and or even in your identity before the name of Jesus or Christ, by IE gay Christian, that’s pretty tragic. I would say they really need to know that through our offering, through the offering of The Restored Hope network, through many actually really good Christian counselors and pastors, we’ve seen literally hundreds if not thousands-the statistical number would bear out that it is thousands of people that actually have experienced transformation.


Stephen, you hit on so many important points right there. One I want to key in on here is you talked about an incremental change in the process of sanctification. We live in such immediate gratification society and world. Whether it’s a homosexual attraction or any kind of sexual sin, we say, “€œOk, if it’s a sin then God will heal me of it it immediately. I”€™ll just think differently and I won’t have these thoughts.”€

In fact, this really does take what Paul talked about in terms of renewing the mind. This is a process. It’s literally bringing your brain and body into subjection to his word. Talk a little bit about that and how people have to think about this not as an overnight solution but as a long term solution.


That’s right. Depending on the person, depending upon their experiences. Unfortunately, more than 55 percent-and the number actually was higher in the first ten years of the survey, 65 percent of the people that come through our ministry were sexually molested as children.

You’re dealing with the need to look at trauma issues, you need to look at areas where people have been deeply wounded, most of these people with a family background that has some kind of chaos and brokenness. So, people are needing to resolve these conflicts.

Then, if you’ve got a person that actually lived out a gay addictive lifestyle they’re more than likely going to be limping along in their thoughts and lives for quite a while, in their trajectory of sanctification. So, it’s a process.

In true Godly pastoral care, you’re going to go after those things in people’s hearts and to give them hope, to give them accountability, and boundaries, and the implementation of a spiritually devoted life to where they can find lasting freedom.

Pastors Supporting Their Church Members


How do pastors develop programs like this at their church? These are often subjects whether you’re dealing with same sex attraction, pornography addiction, or any of these areas, nobody wants to talk about them, right? Churches sometimes don’t want to bring this up and don’t want to deal with it.

Who do you what do you recommend to folks that are in those decision making positions? Or people in the church that want to go to their pastor and say, “€œHey, there’s a need here. You may not think there is but there is a need here for these different sexual areas to be addressed in our church?”€


Yeah, if a church or a pastor does not have any vision for that it’s probably not a really good whole safe place. Because first Thessalonians Chapter 4 is very clear in the need of sanctification is paralleled with having a sexually pure life because sexual immorality is rampant.

The first thing is, does the pastor have a vision for really offering not just head knowledge and teaching but actual pastoral care groups? Where there are people that can actually process the pain and the necessary need of uncovering some of the traumatic areas but also a trajectory of ongoing accountability and boundaries.

We know this is true with 70 percent, the latest statistics, of men in the church are looking at porn weekly. Well, if we’re not addressing this as a church then we’re actually just disempowering the church to be all that she needs to be.

This is a crucial thing in not just dealing with the homosexual issues but sexual purity in the church. So that marriages and families are going to be pure and holy and intact. If a church is going to be holy they have to address this in ways, not just from the pulpit, but in a way where men and women can be completely honest and confess.

So that they can be ahead of the temptation, not just after they’ve sinned. But to talk about areas of humility and brokenness where they can really find a an implementation of the grace of God to actually have victory over these things. That’s a lot in itself, I know I’m throwing out a lot there, but that is a must in every church. And we need to be looking for churches like that.

Everyone Needs Support In Some Way


Stephen, you’re right on man. I tell all my buddies, I say, “€œLook man, you may say you don’t struggle with any of this stuff. I don’t believe you. Every guy out there needs to be in a group like this to some level and some extent.”€

That’s part of the issue here. Maybe the last thing-I know we’re almost out of time- that I ask you about. Whether somebody is facing a porn addiction, same sex attraction, or whatever sexual sin, often the thought will be, “€œWell, I’m better off fighting this and just   trying to read books or just pray more and not have to talk to anybody about it.”€ How important is it- I don’t believe you can have victory in these areas without the support-


The Bible is very clear on this, that we don’t get victory without confession. Years ago I was teaching at a pastors study and the Lord put in my heart to ask them, “€œHave you ever confessed the darkest part of your life to another human being?”€ It’s not about confessing just to God. It really is about this place of receiving grace.

God gives grace to the humble not to the proud. Not to the person who thinks he’s got it all in order or thinks he’s going to be able to do, in an island to himself. It is so important to have the different gifts and parts of the body of Christ. To come beside us to hold us accountable.

I have a little acronym I use called ABS. Everybody wants them right? So you better have accountability that’s not just confession session. It better be true accountability that”€™s organic where you’re living with other peers where you are able to confess and bring things in the light and live holy. Then boundaries. Where you are “€œboundaring”€ your a technology, person, places, and things. Where you’re keeping yourself holy in regard to that. Then a spiritually devoted life where you practice spiritual warfare.


That”€™s good! So ABS, accountability, boundaries, and then spiritual. What was the last part of spirutal?


Spiritually devoted life.


So good Stephen. God bless you man. Thanks for your time. The book again, is Freedom Realized. You’ve got two different ministries, can you give me websites on both those?


Yeah, it”€™s And first don’t dot org. Then the book itself is Then we’re part of a network called


Excellent! We’ll put links to all those at today. Stephen God bless you. Appreciate your time, thanks for coming on.


Yeah. Thank you. God bless you.


Stay with us folks, we’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Join WallBuilders In Israel!


Hey Friends! Rick Green here from WallBuilders Live. The WallBuilders team is going to Israel and we’d love to have you go with us. It”€™s going to be January 28 through February 7th, a Holy Land tour that is the experience of a lifetime.

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Counselors Reported Surprising Statistics


Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. We’re back with David and Tim Barton. Our special thanks to Stephen Black for joining us and we’ll have links to his book and to the websites that we talked about as well. All that will be available at

David, Tim, it was almost like what we were talking about in the first segment. He’s basically saying  this applies across the board. This is not just about homosexuality, it’s about sexual sin. It’s about sex outside of the boundaries that God gave us.

If you want the blessings that God will give you, you”€™ve got to live within those boundaries that He gave. It’s interesting that he was speaking to much more than just the homosexual issue. It applies across the board.


It really. Rick, one of the things he said that stuck out to me is the fact that 65 percent of the people they deal with have come from a home where there is sexual abuse. Lead them to the lifestyle they that they chose, that sexual activity.

It really does speak so much- we’ve talked on this program so often about how home situation can can have such an impact on young people in the decisions they make, right? Whether it be their economic, or their academic, or their sexual, or whatever kind of topic you want to go to, that home life makes such a difference.
This is interesting. I talked to one time a counselor who said personally saw over a thousand individuals who were homosexuals and they said that every single one of them either had an absent father or had been sexually abused as a child. But they had not received that male leadership they needed in their life.

This is where it’s so interesting the pushback against people wanting help, especially when you see it has produced so many good things. But to me it also really speaks to the significance of having a strong home to raise kids to be healthy individuals and become healthy adults and raise healthy families themselves.


There is hope and there is healing folks. Stephen said 88 percent of their participants reported finding lasting freedom. So there’s hope and there’s healing. Please go check out those websites today at our and our websites Check out those links and share it with your friends or family that could benefit from this phenomenal counseling they provid. Thanks for listening today, You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live