Should Churches & Non-Profits Access COVID-19 Stimulus Funds? – With Brad Dacus: How should the Church step-up during this crisis? Where are the boundaries of government? Tune in to hear Brad Dacus weigh in on these important issues.

Air Date: 04/15/2020

Guest: Brad Dacus

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith and the Culture


Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. It’s WallBuilders Live and we’re talking about today’s hottest topics, policy, faith, all the things affecting our culture, including the COVID crack down and all the other things happening right now. So many folks at home, so many folks trying to figure out what to do in the midst of all this. It truly is maybe the greatest crisis of our lifetime. Not necessarily because the virus by itself, I think we’re going to find it at this point to not be anywhere near as bad as what everybody was afraid of a few months ago. But at the same time, the government reaction to it has created the greatest economic crisis of our lifetime for sure. So combined, yes, greatest crisis of our lifetime.

So, we need to look at a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective even on this current situation. How are we to respond as citizens? How are we just respond to as biblical citizens that have a biblical worldview? Because that’s what WallBuilders Live is all about throughout the year. In all situations, how do you apply a biblical worldview to the issues of our day, whatever those hot topics may be?

David Barton is America’s premier historian and he’s our founder here at WallBuilders. Tim Barton is a national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. And my name is Rick Green. I’m a former Texas legislator and America’s Constitution coach. And we look forward to these topics. Because it’s actually interesting to us to look back at the historical context and find out what does history teaches us about situations like this?

We’re diving into the Constitution and saying, what is the Constitution actually say the government’s role should be in these things? And certainly, the biblical perspective of how do you have peace in these times? How do you have joy through tribulations like this? And how do you make sure that you don’t have a spirit of fear? I mean, all of those things are what we’re looking at here on WallBuilders Live.

The Pacific Justice Institute

Alright, David, Tim, later in the program, Brad Dacus will be with us from Pacific Justice Institute, one of those great organizations that represents churches and individuals on religious liberty and other constitutional issues across the country. They do it for free. It’s amazing love what they do, good work. But we’re going to be talking about how churches and private schools and others can respond to the crisis, whether or not they should be trying to get, you know, tap into some of the Cares Act, finances and just frankly, how the church kind of a theme this week really how the church can step up during this crisis and serve their community in need.


Yeah, it is the thing this week, because the church has been having to do that for the last several weeks. And this is the first Easter we have on record where the churches were not congregating as normal. We covered last week how that there have been other pandemics where the churches were shut out for periods of time. But this is the first time that we’ve had in Easter, so this is a new thing for churches.


Well, and even with the earlier pandemics, generally, the shutdowns were related to specific areas where that was under control, really the authority of the State and really more of cities or counties at that point. So, we haven’t seen a national shutdown really ever in the history of America with some of these pandemics, so that certainly is a unique thing. And as churches are having to navigate how to do this, we’ve had several different conversations over the last couple of weeks about churches having to navigate through this and what’s constitutional.

Governors and Judges

And Rick, we’ve mentioned that you had done several videos covering some of what is constitutional, what’s not constitutional in the midst of the quarantines and how that works. But I got a message just over this last weekend where we had some friends in church in Texas who were going to do drive-in church and the Judge said, you’re not allowed to do that. And this pastor pushed back and said, now wait, a second, Governor Abbott said…


In this case is a county Judge. It’s not like a federal judge or a judicial judge. It’s an elected county Judge.


Correct, it was a county Judge And so, this pastor pushed back and said, now, wait a second, Governor Abbott said that churches are essential and we’re doing drive-in, so people aren’t getting out. So, we’re still supposed to be able to meet, we’re still following CDC guidelines. And the Judge said, no, it’s not safe. If you show up, we’re fining everybody. And so, sometimes we hear these stories in other States.

But again, all three of us being in Texas, we often think that Texas is a different State, we see more kind of conservative positions, things that aren’t always the norm when it looks to some of the liberal policies from liberal Judges. And yet, there still is some of that in some places in Texas. And so, churches have had to navigate through some tough waters. But certainly, we see them stepping up in other areas, having to get outside their four walls. So, in the midst of this crisis, that there is some good coming, even though there’s a lot of fights on the horizon.

Democrats Will Take Advantage


Well, I don’t think it’s even done with that yet. Because I think when this thing is all over and done with, there’s going to be and quite frankly, just looking to the election in the fall, if I’m sitting at just as an observer on political elections, I think the only place the democrats really have to go with this is the government didn’t do enough, that they’re going to have to say we need more government; government should have done more, should have stepped in sooner, should have stepped in bigger. And so, I think we’ll have a debate even over what government is going to do in the future.


Well, and the more they keep people from being able to go to work, the more that there’s an economic shutdown, the more people are in need, the more that jobless claims increase and unemployment increases, then there’s more perhaps listening ears to some of that conversation of the government should help you, the government can do this, forgetting the very fact that the government was the one that inflicted this pain on you in the first place. Right?




With on some levels, right, questionable how this quarantine goes, because now you’re hearing a lot more voices that are saying that the best thing that you can do is have herd immunity. And herd immunity happens when the young and healthy are out continuing normal life, let them continue the workforce. And maybe it is more of the elderly that need to be quarantine for 4 or 5 or 6 weeks until herd immunity has been built and this thing is really kind of dwindled down and the young and healthy and then it doesn’t impact the elderly.

Bill Gates Agenda

Now, I’m not a medical professional. I’m just hearing a lot more of that conversation, which is very interesting because it’s indistinct contrast with the federal government and even State governments have done.


Well, with that, you look at what Bill Gates is done last week. He said, well, what we need now is we need to know who’s receiving immunization, because he believes what’s coming. And so, he says there needs to be a chip embedded in children that have the immunization that say that you can scan and read and say, yeah, I’ve been immunized against corona. Well, that’s going to be a big fight all by itself. Who’s going to put a chip in kids? And do we want to chip in kids? And is it one that government can read? And so, it’s going to get into the parental rights as well, because this is more of the big government stuff. And so, government needs to know whether you’ve been immunized.

And I mean, and by the way, this is where Brad Dacus would be really, really good. Because one of the things his law firm, Pacific Justice Institute really focuses on is parental rights. And I guarantee you that that’s going to be huge parental rights debate. Do I want the government taking my kids and implanting chips in them and who knows what’s on that chip? You know, that’s going to actually go on and on. So, I think that as this thing starts to simmer down and slow down and we come out on the other aside, you’re going to have a big debate over what is the role of government. And where do parents fit in? And where did churches fit in? And what’s private and what’s public? I mean, it’s going to be a big debate and this is where Brad Dacus can help us navigate that.

The Twilight Zone


We’re going to have Brad would come back from the break. I’m just sitting here listening to you guys and I feel like I should have some Twilight Zone music play in the background. Churches being threatened, in fact, this weekend, many churches were fined, ticketed, you know, churchgoers for sitting in their car at a drive-in church service where they couldn’t possibly get anybody else sick. I mean, how far we’ve gone with this thing? It’s just, I mean, chips and kids, I really do need some Twilight music. It’s just unbelievable.

I never thought I would say this. But you know, let’s just keep watching the, the Swedes. I mean, they’re saying, hey, we’re going about life as normal. And it looks like it’s affecting them the exact same as everybody else. So, we may have gone to all of this for not, we could have done with the Swedes did, not destroy the economy and still had basically the same percentages, but we’ll see. Hindsight will be 2020 in another year. Let’s take a quick break, Brad Dacus when we return WallBuilders Live.

Constitution Alive – FREE!

Many of you out there are under stay-at-home orders by your governor or your local health officials and maybe you’re looking for something to do during this time. One of the most important things you can do as a citizen is to make sure that you know your rights, you know when they’ve been violated and you’re the better prepared to defend and assert them. To do that, you’ve got to study the Constitution and the history behind it.

Constitution Alive with David Barton and Rick Green does exactly that. We take you into the WallBuilders library, we bring all those resources to life. And then we go out to Philadelphia to Independence Hall and right there in the room where the Constitution and the Declaration were put together, we bring it to life, we relive it and we make sure that we as citizens know what our part is in preserving these freedoms for future generations. At this time in our nation, it is so important to know the proper role of government and what we as citizens should be doing at this time.

If you haven’t done Constitution Alive, check it out at You can get the DVD set there, we’ll get it out in the mail to you as soon as we can. You can study at home. Or you can go to and become a Constitution coach today. We’ve got a free license for you right now where you can sign up as a Constitution host and be the catalyst in your community to bring back these biblical and historical and constitutional values.

And what you do is you sign up as a host and then you get your friends and family together on Zoom. We coach you on how to do it and you’re able to create community and also study the Constitution at the same time. Do this and we will be able to pick up the pieces on the other side of this crisis and rebuild our nation even stronger than it was before. Check it out today at


Welcome back to WallBuilders Live, thanks for staying with us today. Brad Dacus from Pacific Justice Institute, back with us, been way too long, Brad. Thanks for coming on, man.


Always a pleasure, Rick, thank you.


We had to create this national crisis so that you would be locked in your home and have time to come on WallBuilders Live. All of that, just so we could get Brad Dacus back on WallBuilders Live. Now, we missed you, brother, we love what you do and just appreciate you coming back on the program.

Welcome Brad Dacus

And now listen, you’re reaching out and you’re helping churches and folks right now know how to navigate and maneuver through a lot of this stuff. So, we want to talk a little bit about that. But also, just get an update on some of the projects you’re working on for this upcoming year and equipping pastors and churches to really be salt and light in the community again. So, we got a lot to cover in a short period of time. What you want to hit first, bro?


Well, first, I want to hit the new resources that we have available online to help churches obtain financial relief through the new Cares Act. There’s five different, Rick, there’s five different segments to that, that bites at the apple, if you will, that churches could take advantage of. Many don’t even realize that they can do that. Some say, oh, yeah, there’s one program. No, there’s actually five potential programs, depending on their situation.

So, what we’ve done is we have a program that they can listen to, it’s an audio program. On our website at, where they can hear all about this from an expert attorney in finance law with a lot of expertise plus some written resources that’s extremely helpful.


And when you say they, Brad, when you say they, let’s categorize. This is business leaders, church leaders, Christian school leaders, there’s a lot of people that need to hear this.

Business Leaders, Private Schools, and Churches


Exactly. Exactly. It’s for all three groups. This for business leaders, private school leaders and then church leaders and they can listen to. We have actually three, it’s all on there, so they can listen to these. They can get all the information, I mean all the written material, the Q&A’s. We make it very easy at Pacific Justice Institute on our website for ministries to take advantage of this. And the window is not going to be open much longer.


That’s right.


So, this is not something that can wait, you know one or two months to do. They need to move on immediately and we’re very excited and feel privilege to be able to help the body of Christ in such a very tangible way.


And Brad, I mean, they definitely need to go and listen to the full thing. But can you give us just a quick answer to, should I take government money in this case? Will it endanger my religious liberty at all? Because I think that’s probably the main question on the minds of these leaders that we want to go, listen to this call.

Know the Benefits


Yeah, there’s longer term loans that they can get and also shorter ones, which is just really for the next two and a half months. But we were looked at, we scrutinize it and this president, President Trump has put this together in a way that is very solid, very concrete. I know Tony Perkin’s people were working with this. So, the answer is, no, there’s no concerns at this time for this program. But it’s a question that we all should be asking whenever we get involved with receiving aid or assistance in any way, shape or form from the government. We need to, I say pray with one eye open when dealing with, you know, these kind of programs involving the government. It can be a trap door and we understand that at Pacific Justice Institute.


But I like that, Brad, pray with one eye open, no doubt about it. And I think even just the initial hurdle in my mind initially, you know, because typically, I’d say, you know, they shouldn’t be doing bailouts and it’s not a bailout. It’s literally paying damages to the organizations that are, you know, being incredibly hurt. I mean, we’ve got a nonprofit that, you know, will lose hundreds of thousands of dollars, because of, you know, donations, because of events that aren’t going to happen and all that. And so that’s what this is designed to help everybody is in that situation across the country.

And, you know, Brad, if the church and Christian companies and nonprofits, conservative nonprofits, don’t participate in this, you’re talking about a massive shift of wealth from the right to the left, because we’ll pay for it through our taxes. And if only, you know, say progressive organizations take the money, they’ll come out of their strong, we’ll come out of it weak. Not a good citizen. I’m with you. I think we need to be encouraging churches, encouraging Christian Schools to get the help they need in this situation, that’s why we’re doing this.

Legal Insider


Yeah. And also, we have another resource on our websites called a Legal Insider. So, churches want to be kept up to date with what’s going on with these opportunities. And other individuals who, for that matter, in businesses, they need to definitely go to our website, and sign up to get our Legal Insider updates. It’s very valuable, particularly in times like this. And I know also there’s a lot of concerns dealing with the restrictions on churches about being able to meet and can they even to have people, you know, drive by the church, to stay in their car and pick up an Easter basket or not, can a church do videotaping? We’re dealing with some of those issues with some heavy-handed counties in California.

We’ve actually addressed that as well, Rick on our website with a breakdown of more than 20 States specific legal memorandums on the different mandates and restrictions for each of those states on churches and ministries. And if we really want to empower churches so that they understand what they can do and we’re updating it regularly so that churches can know what their rights are at the same time, the full compliance with the laws that God wants us to comply with, but also, like they know what their rights are, so they aren’t pushed around anymore than they need to and the constitution will allow so.


What an incredibly valuable service, Brad. That is so needed, man. I mean, we get calls and emails every day, can we do this? Should we do this? How far do we go with it? You know, how do we obey the law and at the same time still honor God in these things? So, thank you for putting that guidance together and making it available to people. And so right now, I mean, people can go to the website,

Get the Information!

Get that information, listen to that audio, get signed up for the emails. I can’t thank you enough, Brad, you guys do incredible work all the time. I mean, and throughout the year, you’re representing people and protecting religious liberty and so many other areas of constitutional rights as well. But at this moment in time, in our nation’s history, when so many people are just wondering what to do, you guys have really stepped up and provided some incredible answers. So, bless your brother. Thank you for doing that.


Well, I appreciate Rick. You know, we have right now as we speak, before all this happened, we already had 47 cases in active litigation across the United States, defending religious freedom, parental rights, the safety of human life. We’ve got hundreds of affiliate trainees all across the United States. We do all our work without charging.

One thing that makes us unique, Rick, is that we don’t just cherry pick high profile cases, we work hard to make sure that no one is left on the side of the road, that no one’s turned away if it falls in our mission statement and our expertise and we pick up all the chart costs, which is we do it all without any fees at all. And it’s a real privilege to serve the body of Christ. This is a unique way that’s come up with regard to this new federal program. And then also with the new challenges with churches, we’re really working hard to give them all the resources they could possibly need.

A New Resource

A new resource we also have, Rick real quickly is the training video on how to have a church service online via Facebook or YouTube. We make that real easy. So, a pastor who knows nothing about computers at all, a little church out there the foothills of wherever, they will be able to do it. And our website, we make it real easy to understand. And we’re also working hard right now to distribute in the very near future a video on the sex education that now it’s going to be coming through. It’s already going to 17 cities outside of California.

It is horrific, horrific all the way down to kindergarten level. And that’s a whole nother topic. But along with that, we’re introducing a program to help churches have their own church homeschool coops to encourage and enable churches how easy it is for them to have homeschooling in their church.

And what a great outreach that is right now with so many families experimented with homeschooling, whether they like it or not, at the same time, that we have this horrific sex education, outrageous material going forth. It’s a great opportunity for churches to take advantage of that as well. We’re willing to serve them in that capacity also.

Thrust Into Homeschooling


Yeah, you know, Lord willing, as much of a challenge as I know it is for a lot of these families that have been thrust into homeschooling and didn’t have time to think about it or are planned for it. Hopefully, one of the things that will come out of it is they’ll realize what a blessing it is to have their kids for that much of the day and enjoy them and to be the main influence on them and in their education as well as the rest of their lives. So hopefully, there’ll be more people looking for that tool. So, I’m glad you guys have that available as well.

Brad, I can’t help it, but you didn’t ask me to do this. I want our listeners to know this. But I just listened to all this stuff you’re doing and when people go to the website,, in the top right hand corner, red button there says donate, got a little flag. It’s easy to find. Go click on that button. I know it’s tough right now, everybody is financially strapped right now. Give a few bucks if you can. Take some of what you’re going to get in your check from the government in the next month or so and just invest in freedom. Pacific Justice Institute is out there defending that freedom.

And Brad, we’re going to have to do this again as we come out of this, you know, Lord willing in another month or so at the latest. But this summer and in the fall, we got to talk elections. You guys are doing a lot to equip pastors, to speak on that constitution, you know, doing a constitutional way obviously, and talk about biblical citizenship and voting and doing voter registration drives. You all are already working on some big efforts on that. And that’s going to be what makes us stronger on the other side of this instead of weaker.

Special Thanks


Yeah, I’m very optimistic. And you’re right, we’re working very aggressively. It’s a whole another campaign to talk about, that we’re really excited about that. And I really appreciate your heart, Rick and helping get this information out there. Thank you so much.


Absolutely. Brad Dacus, is the website, all of those different tools that we talked about. We’ll make it easy for today. We’ll have a link at Always good to have you, brother, look forward to having you back soon. We’ll talk about the voter registration drives and the other reference so people can get involved in. Appreciate you, man.


Thank you. Appreciate it


Staying with us, folks. We’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

One-Room Schoolhouse

Hey friends, this is Rick Green from WallBuilders Live and I have had so many requests about what in the world could we be studying at home right now? You know, I got the kids at home, they’re normally in school. Or if you homeschool, you’re looking for additional material. One-Room Schoolhouse. It is a great new series WallBuilders is putting out where you literally get a tour of the WallBuilders library as Tim Barton and Jonathan Ritchie bring history to life. There’s a couple of resources on this.

You can go to YouTube and search for WallBuilders and look for One-Room Schoolhouse. You can go to our Facebook page and get it right there on Facebook as we do it live each Monday and sometimes additional days from there. And then you can also just go to, scroll down to the bottom and we’ll be posting the videos as they come out. This is such a great way to learn and a great way for you to share with others. Gather the family around, watch the One-Room Schoolhouse and learn some great history. It’ll be vitally important to restoring our nation and bringing back these principles that made America great in the first place. Check it out One- Room Schoolhouse at

Special Treatment


Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Special thanks to Brad Dacus for joining us today, Pacific Justice Institute. We’re back with David and Tim Barton. So, guys, look I mean, I’m so glad he’s on top of this and of course, the recording of that call they had last week advising, you know, churches, business leaders, private schools, I mean, really anybody that needs to kind of get some advice on how to navigate this whole thing can get that recording today. We’ll have a link today for folks as well.

Man, it just seems like the churches… I know, most authorities are not singling out churches, but man, the stories are coming in from all over the country where churches do seem to be getting special meaning or negative special treatment on this. I mean, what was the guy in, was it Louisville Mayor that said, no worshiping, we’re not going to have any worshipping on Easter Sunday. Unbelievable.


Yeah. And that’s something that our friends over at First liberty, Kelly Shackleford, I mean, us, three we know about this, but the victory that came down where a judge stepped in and really slapped down. The mayor said, no, you can’t do that.

More is Unfolding


And by the way, let me emphasize the word slap down. This was a temporary restraining order and he had a big opinion in it. And he let his opinion be known, which is really unusual for a temporary restraining order. He did slap down the mayor.


Yeah, and this case is going to you’re going to come back to court and so well, there’s going to be more unfolding to this. Nonetheless, there was this…


And Kelly will be with us Friday, by the way. So, we got Kelly Shackleford or coming up in a couple of days with details on that one as well.


Oh, good. Yeah. So, we’ll be able to cover all this then, I guess, part of Good News Friday here and the good news coming down from this Judge stepping into defending church. But in the midst of this navigating what churches are doing and how things are going, it is an unusual time. One of the things I love that Brad pointed out though, is that this is such a good opportunity for churches to be part of the solution for the craziness, the crisis in culture. And one of the solutions could be looking at every church having a homeschool Coop in their church.

The System is Broken

One of the things that certainly over the last decades, there’s been a movement to get more kids out of the public system, not because there’s not good public school teachers, not because there’s not good people in administration. But because the system itself is so broken on so many areas as even Brad was pointing out if you look at the sex ed curriculum is coming out.

Right? Some of these things that are just it’s ghastly, almost unbelievable. And maybe for some, it would be unbelievable. And this is where now that parents are in a situation where they’re having to help navigate from home their children’s education, this is a really good opportunity for churches to step up and say, hey, what can we do to help parents to help kids? I know so many churches, right that think about how can we help kids, how can we help parents?

And one of the best ways right now especially, it would seem like the churches can offer a really good solution is to say hey, let’s have one or two days a week and maybe not right now, specifically with this quarantine stuff, but in the future, this could be a good opportunity for churches to be able to promote instilling again those biblical values and kids, helping parents be the parents and raise up their children. That was a suggestion, I thought. This is a really, really good thought for especially where we are in culture.

Transfer of WealthTransfer of Wealth


And also, when you look at the fact that we are going to have a transfer of wealth out of this, the fact that at 2-4 trillion that has been designated for economic relief and it looks like Congress is now moving forward another 250 billion to let that transfer occur only to the secular, non-religious community makes no sense at all. Churches really do need to participate in this thing.


Well, and we understand why people have not wanted to take government money for a lot of years because you don’t want the strings attached. But right even as Brad points out, in this one, it doesn’t seem like there’s as many strings attached in some of these areas. This is a really good opportunity for people to be able to get some of that money to help their churches. I mean, even for us, as a nonprofit, we’re looking at some of that, because certainly it’s impacted some of our income. Because we can’t travel and speak, we can’t do the things that have enabled us to be able to fund a staff and be able to write the books. And so, this is certainly something that churches ought to look into and see how they can get part of this to help them.


And as we’ve heard a lot of conservative commentators say over the last couple of weeks, I mean, in many ways these finances are damages for the damage that’s been done to businesses and schools and churches as a result of not the virus, but the government action in response to the virus and it really is certainly justified. But actually, you raise a great point Tim, I mean, without the speaking engagements without so many things and with so many people being concerned and donations get smaller and that sort of thing.

Should Non-Profits Access Covid19 Stimulus Funds? – With Brad Dacus

I mean, we really do have to ask today, you know, those of you that have been donating to WallBuilders Live for years, we want to encourage you, if you still can, please do. And you go to today and click on that donate button and make that contribution. It’s very important right now to have truth out there in the culture. It’s very important to have constitutional, biblical, historical perspective so important in what’s happening right now.

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