Defunding The Police, Violence Affecting Elections, And More! –  Foundations of Freedom: Should we really defund the police? Would strong leadership quell the riots? Did President Trump violate the Constitution or protect the rights of churches? Tune in to hear the insightful answers to these questions and more!

Air Date: 06/18/2020

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith and the Culture

President Thomas Jefferson said, “I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society, but the people themselves. And if we think they’re not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.”


Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. It’s WallBuilders Live, where we talk about today’s hottest topics on policy and faith in the culture, always looking at those things from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. Man, how that is needed right now in our country today.

We need truth. We need to be able to calm down and talk to each other and reason and actually look at history and look at the Bible and look at the constitution and actually come to good conclusions and you need those three perspectives to do that.

We’re here David Barton. He’s America’s premier historian and our founder at WallBuilders. Tim Barnes, with us, national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. And my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas legislator and America’s Constitution coach. Check us out at You can get archives the program there, you can also find out which stations we’re on across the country and other information as well. And it’s the perfect place to go make your contribution today.

If you want to help spread truth across our country, if you want to help save our nation from the lies of the Leftist propaganda, you got to help empower folks like us at WallBuilders to get the message out there and teach that truth and part of the way you do that is make a contribution today at It’s Foundations of Freedom Thursday, as that means we’re diving into your questions. You can send those questions in to [email protected], that’s [email protected].

America’s Hidden History

Alright, guys, before we actually take a question from the audience, it’s had a great comment, that’s why I really enjoyed just Memorial Day Program on TBN America’s hidden history. And that’s what, you have done like what 6 or 7 of those on different holidays throughout the year?


Yeah, we have them on various holidays. And the Memorial Day really was a remarkable thing that World War Two veteran and a veteran of the war on terror and there’s some cool veterans with very touching story, very compelling stories. And so, we’ve done that. We’ve done one on black history. We’ve done one on the 4th of July and Constitution day and others and they’ve done really well with the audience. And so, good to hear the people enjoyed the Memorial Day program.


Well, this listener definitely loved it. Here’s what she said. “Thank you very much for America’s Hidden History program on TBN. Excellent, amazing, moving, timely. With parents who served as missionaries to Japan for many years after my dad had been in the Pacific in World War Two, it really touched us. Dad went to heaven last fall at 95, he would have definitely understood many of the veterans’ experiences from his own time in the war.

And same evening, we watch PBS’ registry program about Japanese-Americans who served well in the US military during World War Two in spite of ridicule. Meanwhile, their families were rounded up by our government. Although not old enough to have known World War Two, we have a heart for the Japanese and served there ourselves for five years in the 1990s. Thank you again for your meaningful program. God bless you and your ministry.”

Very cool. And Americans Hidden History, now guys, is that only available on Memorial Day or can people go watch it on their website or at WallBuilders website?

Holiday History Resources


It’s something, Rick, that we have available for purchase on our website, you can purchase individual episodes, you can purchase the whole series. We have two seasons of it. The first one is specifically related to holidays. The second one is, I guess, there’s 23 individuals, we kind of tell their story, highlight specific moments from their life.

And we actually do a lot of it on location, which was really fun, flying literally all over the US to places where these heroes had been, done a lot of their heroic work, where they grew up, where they maybe died in some situations. And so, there’s two seasons, you can find them on the WallBuilders website, is the best place to go.


I’m remembering now that you did one of these in Birmingham, right? You went to and where Shuttlesworth and MLK did the marches there and you visited with folks that had actually been there in the 60s and part of that?


Correct. Yeah. For one of the episodes we had during the first season was for Black History Month and we went to Birmingham met with Bishop Jim Lowe, who is a remarkable, remarkable man. He was a child when one of the church bombings went off. He was there four girls died and he was in the Sunday school class right beside where the bomb went off.

He actually got cut up from some of the glass shrapnel, so to speak. And we get to interview him, hear his testimony and story, the work that God has done in his life and how God is now using him for a lot of racial healing and reconciliation. Just such a remarkable story. And yeah, that was something that was a lot of fun to get to do to go to Birmingham and talk to Bishop Jim Lowe.



It definitely brings the history, you remember, it brings it to life when you see it through the eyes of those who lived it. It’s a much more impactful way to study history. Alright, so it’s called America’s Hidden History and it’s available right now at

First question of the day on this Foundation of Freedom Thursday comes from Maya in Shelton, Washington. I don’t know if that’s in or out of the Chaz Zone, but we’re praying for you there in Washington with all the crazies.

Alright, she said, “What is your opinion of the defunding of the police movement that is sweeping our nation right now? Do you think more social services will help the situation? Or is that just a slippery slope into socialism?” And she might have asked that before Chaz popped up and took over part of Seattle.

But anyway, guys, man, well, I know we all three have a lot of thoughts on the crazy idea of defunding the police. But let me just toss it out there and see which one of you want to jump on at first.


Well, Rick, let me offer a point of clarification. It’s now Chop, not Chaz. Because…


Name change.


Yeah, they discovered they weren’t quite as autonomous in their autonomous zone as they had hoped to be. So now, it’s just more of their occupied zone is where they’re going for now with this Chop. One thing, guys, I mean, we’ve talked about this so much.

The Apostle Paul’s Reminder

We have been on so many Zoom calls, so many phone calls, so many meetings, dealing with so much of the perception of what is going on and what we often discuss is that perception does not always line up with data and facts and truth. And we have to be very careful not to be swayed in merely emotion in losing truth along the way. Right?

One of the things that the Apostle Paul reminded Christians was don’t be led by empty philosophy and high-sounding nonsense. And so often, we are seeing movements in culture right now that are being led by empty philosophy and high-sounding nonsense that’s not rooted or based on biblical truth or even factual data, truth of just reality and culture around them.

And so, this notion of defunding police, we would all say, it’s kind of silly for a lot of reasons. But it would be a different question to say, should there be other levels of training or other resources available for police officers, because they deal with a lot of unique and challenging situations that in theory, is not just a police officer dealing with a criminal bad guy with a gun? That’s not most of what they deal with.

Now, that’s probably a lot of officers or a lot of individuals who go to the academy are very aware of that going in, there’s some general knowledge there maybe. The conversation should be, should there be different levels of training or should there be other services there to assist in some of these other endeavors?

But right now, part of the question of defund the police is because they can’t help with the homeless and the mental anxiety and mental disorders, etc. Well, that’s a different scenario of how do we deal with crime? How do we protect these neighborhoods?

And one of the things that, I think is a very valid point that have been made in many situations is that in a lot of these inner-city places, you have white officers who are defending things in minority communities. And so, it’s not just these very rare situations when you see a white officer oppressing or shooting, right bringing to justice, racism, whatever, to a minority to a black American, African American wherever the case is.

Oppressed by Criminals

More times than not, you see officers that are defending those in minority communities that are being oppressed by criminals, bad guys, etc. And so, if you’re saying remove the police or defund the police and bring in different resources, well, what are you going to use to stop the violent offenders, the criminals, etc?

Guys, again, we’ve talked about this a lot in great detail. There’s a lot of this movement that doesn’t make sense that Paul would say, is high-sounding nonsense, it’s empty philosophy because it does not work. It’s just people being led in the heat of the movement by their emotions.


One of the things too that goes with this is there’s a notion behind it and there often is on the part of liberals is that basically there’s a belief almost that humans are infallible, that they will do the right thing if given the opportunity and all you need to do is educate them to do the right thing and they will do the right thing. So, if we can put more money in resources and education, we don’t need police.

Well, that’s a bad view all the way around. Number one, it’s a biblically bad view because the heart of man is desperately wicked, that’s what we’re told numerous times in the Bible. It is not a biblical worldview to say that man is inherently good. Man can be good if he gets his heart under control and does the right things, but if he doesn’t, he will do what’s bad.

So, education does not fix a heart problem. One thing people don’t understand about police is that neither police nor the law stop crimes, they only punish crimes after they occur. You do all the education you want, have no place at all and Cain still killed Abel and that had nothing to do with whether the police were there. Now, the laws come in and allow you to punish after the fact.

Police Presence


Well, and let me offer one interjection, because you’re right, police officers largely are there to punish criminals. But a police officer’s presence can prevent crime. Right? Because if you see somebody, they can go, oh, I better not do that because I don’t want to get caught. So, their very presence can stop a crime before it happens.

But ultimately, they are a responsive unit, they are not a proactive unit unless it’s merely their presence in a high crime scenario that will cause someone not to commit the crime because they see an officer and they don’t want to get caught, they don’t want to go to jail, etc. But yeah, generally, they are a reactive force, not a pre-active force.


And that’s the point that was made by James Arendelle, who said that the very terror of punishment may deter them. So, it’s not their good heart that deters them, it’s they’re scared of getting in trouble. And so, the notion that pure education creates a clean heart, which will make you do the right thing, that’s nonsense.

If that were the case, you would not need any police officers in schools, because you have those young children there and those young children, you know, they’re really good at heart. Well, no, they do bad things. They can be really bullying. They can be really mean, they can do. So, you have to have some kind of corrective force there.

So, it’s not laws or police that stop bad behavior, it’s a control of the heart that does; now sometimes, a fear of being punished can stop bad behavior and that’s where police can also be helpful. But this notion that we can defend place and put more money into social services is not going to produce the communities they think they want.


Alright, guys, quick break. We’ve got more questions coming. You’re listening to Foundations of Freedom Thursday on WallBuilders Live.

Abraham Lincoln said. “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts; not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Constitutional Defense of your Family and Freedom

Hey friends, Rick Green here, I know there’s a lot of crazy stuff going on in America right now, chaos in the streets. But we know God is sovereign and we know that He’s in charge. We also know that duty is ours, results are God’s. And that means we do our duty and part of that duty is being prepared to protect our families. You know, Proverbs 22:3 says a prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions, the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.

Friends, if you are not prepared to defend your family, can I just challenge you to come spend a few days with us for a training we call ‘Constitutional Defense of your Family and Freedom’. During the day on the range, you’re going to get the best handgun defense training in the world.

And in the evening, I’m going to teach you on the Constitution. So, you’re going to get intellectual training as well as physical training on how to defend your family. It’s a great time of fellowship. We have a wonderful time every time we do one of these trainings. We have taken several thousand people through this constitutional defense training, handgun defense by day, constitutional knowledge by night. Sign up today at

We’re going to take you out there for 1/10th that’s only 10% of the normal price of going out to these very good trainings and no more important time than to do it right now., sign up today doesn’t matter if you’ve had a lifetime of gun experience or you’ve never touched a gun ever in your life.

We’ve had all types with us. Every single one of them are so glad that they went and you need to be with us on the next trip. Check it out at, we’ve got multiple dates coming up and we want you to be with us for constitutional defense.


Thomas Jefferson said, “The Constitution of most of our States and of the United States assert that all power is inherent in the people that they may exercise it by themselves. That is their right and duty to be at all times armed, that they are entitled to freedom of person; freedom of religion; freedom of property and freedom of press.”


We’re back here on WallBuilders Live, Foundation of Freedom Thursday today. And the next question comes from Sumi Schick. He’s wanting to know about riots and elections. He said, “The riots that have developed recently give me a disturbing premonition.

Would it be a stretch today, especially after 50 Secret Service agents being injured that key down ticket candidates for offices like mayors, city council members, sheriffs and governors might be targeted in the worst ways? I’m praying, but what else can I do?”

Of course, guys, I think, you know, the question is, alright, we’re seeing the violence. There’re definitely being violent towards police officers, Secret Service agents, others in authority. Would that violence potentially spill over to the people running for office that don’t necessarily take the positions that the violent want them to take?


Well, first of all, I think it’s important to note that we have a lot of people in culture right now that are justifying and defending the violence from rioters, not from peaceful protesters. You have people that are explaining away and being understanding and sympathetic toward bad behavior. And I think anytime that we are tolerant of and encourage bad behavior, it only incentivizes more people to follow in practice in that bad behavior.

Autonomous Zones?

When you see this autonomous zone, right, it was Chaz and then Chop, that’s up in Seattle, there were a lot of places that try to do that right afterwards. And had it not been for very strong police forces and very decisive police chiefs or mayors and other cities, there would be more autonomous zones set up. And the reason is when you tolerate one, it encourages others and if you don’t take decisive action, that will continue.

And as long as there are people that are being sympathetic to the burning down of grocery stores, to the burning down of businesses, to the burning down and destroying of targets, to the looting of those same kind of stores, if there are people being sympathetic to that, all it does is encourage that kind of behavior, which is the same thing we’re seeing with levels of violence, where we’re going to assault people and beat people up who do not support our position, who don’t agree with us, you might want to protest our position.

It’s not far-fetched to imagine that that kind of stuff could happen on, I guess, lower ticket or right, down the ballot, individuals who are running for office in whatever capacity. And it’s not just people running for office, it’s really anybody that opposes a specific ideology or worldview if you have not come out and been vocal about Black Lives Matter.

There are certain businesses that have had people tell them, we will no longer come and be a part of your business, we will no longer enjoy your service or your product, because you didn’t come out supporting Black Lives Matter. And so, at this point, they said your silence is caused for us to separate.

What we’re seeing in culture is if you don’t take the side that people want you to take it, they believe that is cause enough for them to oppose you and sometimes even with violent measures, with force, etc. And so, I don’t think it’s far-fetched, this notion that some of this kind of stuff could happen.

Now, with that being said, the reason that these autonomous zones haven’t worked in other cities because there was a size of action taken against them saying, we’re not going to let that happen here. I think If there was some aggressive behavior tried in certain scenarios, all it takes is a few very decisive responses to let people know that will not be tolerated and you can nip some of that in the bud.

But as long as we are being supportive, condoning, endorsing bad behavior when it comes to rioting, looting and assaulting, it does seem to flow that that kind of behavior would be encouraged or at least for the perception that would be encouraged for other places in areas as well.

Individuals Do Stupid Things


Yeah, Tim is right about the how strong your behavior is. Now, you’ll always going to have individuals that will do stupid things, like the guys in the protesting, right, that walked up behind the cop and just shot him in the head. I mean, you can have strong leadership and you’re going to have individuals that will do things like that. So, you always have to watch out for terroristic type of people who are just irrational and do crazy things…


Or evil is another word for it.


Yeah evil, that’s right. Evil in their heart. So, there’s that. On the other side, when you do have strong leadership that is very decisive, that puts your foot down, you find a very different response. And great example is right near our ranch is a local town, it’s a very small town.

Our entire county only has 9,000 people in the county. And we got word that buses of protester were coming in from Houston, they got a protest permit and they were coming in. And just to make sure nothing went goofy, there were 200 guys out there and they had guns and by the way, they’re all law abiding, they’re all law honoring guys and they were carrying legally and so it was all legal what they were doing.

And so, the out of town protesters, they had scouts that arrived there first and the scouts looked at and said, I don’t think this is the area we want to come protest in. And these guys were going to defend their community, they were not going to let it be burned and let it be destroyed. And that’s not what the protesters wanted to say. So strong leadership does make a difference.

Well, I mean, this is crazy. Even what they’re protesting and now they’re facing World War One and World War Two memorials and the Massachusetts 54th Memorial Civil War, I mean, it’s irrational some of the areas. So, I think it goes back to strong leadership. But here’s what I want to spend that on.

Constitutional Rights

I think that mayors have more to fear from law abiding citizens in the elections than they do from protesters in these protests. Because we’re seeing mayor’s that have taken really hard fisted positions in this COVID stuff that have cracked down on constitutional rights of citizens.

And I really do expect that you’re going to see a lot of mayoral changes, a lot of school board and city council changes by voting, by people saying we didn’t realize you were such big government that you want to take our rights away so easily, that you would take any excuse to do that.

I think you’re going to see, not just a presidential election coverage on election night, but you’re going to see a lot of governors being changed and you’re going to see a lot of mayors and city councilors being changed. And it would be in a law-abiding way, won’t because of protests, will be because of citizens saying I’m going out to vote, I can’t believe I had to put up with this in my city. And I think that’s a really healthy thing for the country.


Yeah, it could be a big change. That’s one of the big questions we’re going to get answered in November, is this going to wake up a lot of the people out there that still believe in the rule of law and still believe in life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. I still believe we hold these truths or are we actually outnumbered by what the education system is created out there? I believe it’s the first one.

I think people are going to wake up and push back and we’re seeing some of that out there and I think you’re right. The polling places is the place to let that voice be heard, one of the places, I should say. Even now, the place to be heard is social media and wherever you have a voice, let your voice be heard. You can’t be silent during this time when we have so much lack of truth out there.

Quick break, guys, we got time for one more question when we come back. Stay with us, folks, you’re listening to WallBuilders Live. It’s Foundations of Freedom Thursday.

Greatest Political Privilege

President Calvin Coolidge said, “The more I study the Constitution, the more I realized that no other document devised by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity. To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.”

Hey guys, this is Tim Burton with WallBuilders. And I know you hear my dad and Rick talk a lot about our Founding Fathers, about the original intent of our nation, that constitutional heritage that we have and really, we’ve seen how far we slipped away from that.

And I know a lot of us as we hear my dad and Rick talk, think, I wish there was a place that I could go and I could see these documents and I could read and learn about the Founding Fathers firsthand, see the things they did. And I want to give you some websites today that can help you accomplish that very thing.

If you get online, you can go to places like Library of Congress and you can look under their Century of Lawmaking or Historical Documents, you can go to the Avalon Projects, the Founders Constitution, the Google Books or even the internet archives. Or you can just go to WallBuilders website.

Amazing Resources Online

We have a section for our library. Then under that section, we have different subgroups for historical documents, historical writings, even a place where you can get helpful links to find out more information about other websites where you can do research for yourself and find the truth for yourself. Friends, this is the time that we need to know who we are and where we came from. is a great place to go.

Thomas Jefferson said, “In questions of power, then let no more be heard of confidence in man that bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.”


Welcome back to WallBuilders Live, it’s Foundations of Freedom Thursday today. We got time for one more question in our final segment here and it comes from Janice. So, the question simply says, “Last week, I was stunned that my pastor via online service said that the President’s statement to restart worship services is a violation of the US Constitution. I’d like to respond, but don’t know how.” Okay, guys, have at it.

Separation of Church and State


I’m betting that that pastor thinks that the Constitution guarantees a separation of church and state. And therefore, I’m betting that he thinks that for government officials say anything about religion is a constitutional violation.


Well, and guys, one of the things that we pointed out often is one of the very best first steps you can take is to ask questions and get somebody to clarify their position, so that you know exactly what kind of conversation you need to have.

And so, first of all, I would ask my pastor, hey, Pastor, thanks so much for your leadership. I so appreciate you. I heard you say this. And I would ask, pastor, why was that a violation of the separation of church and state for him to say that? And let the pastor offer the clarifying remarks as to why he thinks it’s a violation of separation of church and state.

And dad, I think, to your point, probably he believes anytime the president encourages any religious activity or going to church on any capacity, it probably violates this so-called notion of the separation of church and state. But I think the very first good response to take is always get someone to clarify their position, that way, you really know what kind of conversation or discussion you’re going to have.


And so, since we don’t know exactly what that position is, the thing I would point out is if the assumption is and I’m making the assumption that he probably has the wrong view of separation of church and state, the Constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion.

And several governors were saying you don’t have the free exercise religion. I’m shutting down services because they’re not essential or whatever it is. For the President to come in and say no, the governors are wrong and churches need to reopen. What he’s doing is actually upholding the Constitution. He’s actually taking the position that the Constitution is taken, is that you have a right to assemble and you have a right to a worship service.

Upholding the Constitution

And so, for the President to contradict the stuff on the other side, he’s actually upholding the Constitution, which does not violate separation of church and state, so, Tim is exactly right. You got to find out what the thinking was behind that statement.

It sounds like the stuff I hear when people have a wrong view of separation of church and state, which they think the government has to be completely silent about religion, completely neutral about it, they can’t take a position on it. And that’s just that I don’t think that, well, I know, that’s not what the President was doing. Because I heard the statement, I know what he said on several occasions. He’s just trying to open churches back up for their constitutionally guaranteed rights.


Yeah, to pretend that you have to be completely secular in a position of political authority is utter nonsense. And one of the things we’ve been a WallBuilders for literally decades, is showing how presidents, how governors, how Congress has so many political leaders in their positions of political leadership implemented faith and pointed to God, pointed to the Bible, pointed to Christianity as guidance for what they believe citizens should be doing.

And so, there’s just too much historical precedent to think that that’s something that is unconstitutional or violate separation church and state or to pretend that you have to be secular if you are in a political position. It’s just not supported historically or even biblically, for that matter. The Bible doesn’t encourage any government or political leaders to be secular in their position. So, from a biblical and historical standpoint, that just doesn’t add up.

Constitution Alive!


And such a great reminder. We need to know these things. Pastors need to know these things. We need to know our rights. We need to know the Constitution. Get Constitution Alive today at and start teaching it in your church, in fact, hand one off to your pastor and say, hey, maybe you need to study the First Amendment yourself and then we’ll understand what our rights are. We got to know them before we can live them out, as John Jay told us so many years ago.

Alright guys, we’ll get to more of those questions on our next Foundations of Freedom Thursday. We appreciate everybody listening today and we want to encourage you to visit our two websites today:, that’s where you can get a wealth of great information,, where you get a list of our stations and you can get archives to this program.

Which means you can dive into those Foundation of Freedom Thursday from weeks past which there is a ton of great information there, a lot of great questions from you in the audience and a lot of digging on our part to get that biblical, historical and constitutional perspective and bring that truth to light. So, check that out at today.

And then if you want to take these things that we’re teaching and actually do that yourself, you bring people together and be the catalyst for restoring a biblical and constitutional foundation to our country. You can do that by using Constitution Alive. That’s our class that we do on the Constitution.

Defunding The Police, Violence Affecting Elections – Foundations of Freedom

We teach it in Independence Hall, where the Constitution was framed and also in the WallBuilders library. So, you can get that at and just take those DVDs and teach that in your living room or at your church. And if you want to actually be a Constitution coach, you get trained on how to do that and have access to digital formats and everything else, you can go ahead and sign up at And we’re even giving away a license right now.

If you want to be a Constitution coach and you want to share this information with friends and family, we’re going to let you do it totally for free. Check that out at Thanks so much for listening today. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.

Calvin Coolidge said, “The more I study the Constitution, the more I realized that no other document devised by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity. To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.”