Jesus Is No Longer The Only Way For American Christians:Â Pastor Jack Hibbs is with us to talk about how churches are trying to make the Bible somehow match what’s happening in the culture and are headed in a non-Biblical direction. Some of which are even claiming false salvation messages. Pastor Jack not only knows God’s word, but he teaches it unapologetically. He shares his thoughts on the importance of the Bible, why some Christians are believing false rhetoric, and how to turn this thing back around.
Air Date:Â 07/04/2018
Guest: Pastor Jack Hibbs
On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton
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Transcription note: Â As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.
Faith And The Culture
Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we”re talking about today”s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture. Always from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. And that biblical perspective is so vital to be in God’s word, to know what His word says, and be able to apply it to what’s happening in the culture.
We’re here with David Barton, he”s America’s premier historian and our founder here at WallBuilders. Tim Barton”s with us, national speaker and pastor, and president of WallBuilders. My name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator.
You can find out more about us and our two websites – WallBuilders.com, our main website, where you can get a wealth of information and all kinds of tools to equip and inspire your family. And then at WallBuildersLive.com you can get a list of our radio stations, listen to past programs, keep up with the news the day, a lot of great information there at WallBuildersLive.com as well.
Later in the program Pastor Jack Hibbs will be joining us from Calvary Chapel Chino Hills. We love having Pastor Jack with us. He is one of those guys that not only knows God’s word, he teaches God’s word and is unapologetic. And yet, their church is flourishing in California, believe it or not.
David, Tim, we talk often about that intersection of faith and the culture. And for us, that means applying the Bible to what’s happening in the culture. Of course, today it seems like churches are trying to make the Bible somehow match what’s happening in the culture.
Yeah, Rick, I think it’s interesting. You alluded to the size of this church you said and yet this church is growing as if preaching biblical truth might not be popular. But it’s interesting, although it’s not popular in much of culture, the majority of the churches that are experiencing growth are the ones that are promoting biblical truth. And yet culture tells us, “Wait a second, you can’t talk about that. You’re going to offend people and drive people away.”
There is an Absolute Standard
And instead of saying,”No, there is truth, God has revealed truth to us, there’s an absolute moral standard, here’s what it is.” You have pastors who are kind of equivocating on what truth is and, well, should we or shouldn’t we. Well, I don’t want to hurt people’s feelings, and I don’t really want to say things that might be offensive even though it’s what the Bible says. So, we’re no longer presenting biblical truth. We’re doing much more of what the Bible warns us against of you have these teachers that are saying things that itching ears want to hear instead of presenting truth.
Well, Pastor Jack”s a guy who goes the opposite direction. He says, “No, no, this is truth.” And interestingly enough, there are people hungry for truth in culture. So, when you have pastors that will present truth, especially in a palatable way, those are the churches that are growing and experiencing that growth. And his church is one of those.
The church they”ve got is absolutely amazing. I was out there recently and here’s a church, extremely active. And they’ve got these wacky bills going through through California. One of which is, hey, you cannot sell, or market, or use materials, that criticize LGBT lifestyle. That’s a ban on the Bible and they’re looking at that. That’s the possibility of one of the things they”ve got out there. And then pastors as well because if you preach what the Bible says, well, that’s going to be interpreted as anit LGBT.
So, they’ve got all these laws that are actually targeting what we would say as the Bible says. This goes back to other eras of history where you have book burners. Well, essentially that’s what’s going on in California. If you don’t like the state’s message, we’re going to stop you.
But Jack, I was out there recently, and after going through, I think there were four or five of these really crazy bills that he went through in the service. And he said, “Guys, here’s the bills, here’s what we’re looking at. And again, he’s got a church of 10,000 people. He said, “They’re wrong. Here’s why. And here’s your five assemblyman from this area. Here”s the people who represent the zip codes we have in this church.”
Getting The Church Involved
As soon as church was over he opened up the courtyard of the church which is, you know, in California a lot of churches have these big outdoor kind of gathering areas. And they went out there and somewhere between seven and eight thousand people in the church wrote letters to their assembly about those five bills.
Over the next weeks, so many letters came into those guys that three of their assemblyman changed their positions on because they’ve never had that many thousands of letters before on any issue. So, not only does he hold biblical truth and stand clear on moral issues, he has a very active and very engaged church which is a really good deal.
Now, the reason we thought would have Jack on is there is an article that really caught our attention recently. It ran, I think, in Christian Post. But it”s talking about how that there are some really large churches in America that are really kind of headed in a non biblical direction.
Here’s one, it’s quoting the pastor of this big Harlem 10,000 member church. And the pastor stood in the pulpit and he said, “Well, many people think that if you don’t believe in Jesus you’re going to hell. That’s insanity. And in many ways that’s not what Jesus even believes.” Really? Well then what do you do with Jesus saying things like John 14:6, “I am the way the truth the life. Nobody comes to the Father except by Me.”
That seems pretty exclusive. If you”re the only way to the Father. Yeah, I don’t think He actually allowed room for other heiresses to the Father.
Let me say this, and it sounds like hyperbole, but it’s not statistically. But right now the church in America is fairly useless. And I say that from the– you”ve got great churches, Jack Hibbs, and so many others. But from the sense of teaching what the Bible actually teaches, and helping Christians to believe what the Bible teaches, and live that out in their lives, it’s not happening.
What Churches Are Teaching
George Barna and I did a book together not long ago called U-Turn. In the book U-Turn we specifically looked at what churches are teaching and what Christians are believing right now. It is so far away from what the Bible itself teaches and what Jesus himself taught.
For example, right now, you have nearly half of Christians who say that Jesus sinned while on Earth. Well, let me tell you that if Jesus sinned while on earth then salvation in the way laid out by the Bible is not possible because you had to have someone sinless who died for the sins of others. Jesus, if He sinned, He only died for His own sins, He didn’t die for anybody else’s sins. But if He didn’t sin than He did voluntarily die for our sins so that we wouldn’t have to face judgment for those sins. So, if Jesus sinned while on earth than He can’t be a savior.
Then you have 70 percent of Christians right now who say that, “Well, you can get to heaven through any other way. Jesus is not the only way to heaven.” Well, that’s certainly not what the Bible teaches and Jesus, on multiple occasions, made that clear. Tim, as you said, that’s a claim to exclusivity. So, we look at the condition of the church right now, it is pretty pathetic if you judge a tree by its fruits.
And I’m not saying all pastors are like that, I’m not saying all congregations are like that. Tim, as you mentioned, some of the great growing churches in America are the ones where you really have people like the Jack Hibbs, we’re going to talk to Jack in a minute. But * is really standing strong, unequivocal for truth, they’re growing. But the bad news is you also have a lot of megachurches in America like this 10,000 Church in New York City headed by folks who do not believe what the Bible believes.
And probably the last indicator I’ll use on this is if you go to the CCCU which is the Coalition of Christian Colleges and Universities in America. There’s about 200 Christian colleges and universities in America. They’re having debates right now over how you define marriage, and whether we’re going to continue keeping Christian colleges that renounce biblical morality, and no, as Christians, we can be a wide and diverse on these views. No, not if you believe the Bible. So, even your Coalition of Christian Colleges and Universities is struggling with whether or not to believe what the Bible actually says.
And so the new definition of “Christian” is, “I call myself a Christian, but I believe what everybody else believes, including those who are not Christians. And that’s just not traditionally historically what’s accurate. So, we thought having Jack Hibbs talk about this trend in the church, and particularly this article, that would be a great place to help get our brains turned back in the right direction.
Alright, quick break, guys. When we come back Jack will be with us. Stay with us. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.
Leadership Training Program
Hey, friends! We’ve got a great program to share with you today. It”s the WallBuilders Leadership Training Program and it’s an opportunity for 18 to 25 year olds to come spend two weeks diving into the original documents we’re always talking about here on WallBuilders Live.
Tim, you’ve already been doing this a couple of summers and seen the results of young people coming to this program. We’re going to see more of them coming this year.
Yeah, Rick, it”s something that”s been cool to see the transformation with young people coming in. The emphasis, for us, largely is a pursuit of truth. We have a culture that doesn’t know what truth is. We don’t know what biblical truth is, or constitutional truth, or the American heritage that we have. And so we really dive into original documents and say, “Well, what did they actually write? What did they actually do? Not just what did somebody say, what is actually true, and the truth is what’s transformational.
Yeah, guys. This really is a remarkable opportunity. And for those who want to spend time with us and spend time in the original documents, this is a great program. So, if you’re from 18 to 25, or you know someone who’s 18 to 25, send them to sign up for one of our three sessions this summer at WallBuilders.com/leadershiptraining.
Moment From American History.
This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. American Patriot Paul Revere road to alert Americans of the impending arrival of the British. But he also sought patriot leader Samuel Adams and John Hancock to warn them that the British were seeking their execution.
Adams and Hancock were staying with the Reverend Jonas Clark in Lexington. When they asked Pastor Clark if his church was ready for the approaching British he replied, “I’ve trained them for this very hour. They will fight and, if need be, die under the shadow of the house of God.”
Later that morning 70 men from his church, and several hundred British in the first battle of the War for Independence. As Pastor Clark affirmed, “The militia that morning were the same who filled the pews of the church meeting house on the Sunday morning before.”
The American church was regularly at the forefront of the fight for liberty. For more information on this pastor and other Colonial Patriots go to WallBuilders.com.
Welcome back. Thanks for stay with us on WallBuilders Live. Pastor Jack Hibbs back with us from Calvary Chapel in California. Always good to have you, brother.
Pastor Jack Hibbs:
I love it, Rick, thanks.
Hey, man, some great things happening out in California. You look at what’s going on culturally and we’re seeing victory, after victory, after victory. A lot of good stuff happening. Wanted to get your thoughts on one that looks not so good and that is the watering down of the Gospel. In fact, some would say even heretical when it comes to the Gospel coming out of the pulpits in some places in America.
Pastor Jack Hibbs:
Yeah, this is something that’s not just California. This is something that, in fact, the nation, and of course Canada, and England, Rick. And you’re talking about something that is just where the pulpits are weakening, the seminaries are cranking out ministers that are not rooted and grounded in the word. They don’t have a high view of Scripture, they’ve got a low view. Because of that the cultural issues are now driving the pulpit.
Churches Going Belly Up?
Pastor Jack Hibbs:
And I see America’s churches many of them going belly up, in a sense, because they’re not doing what God said to do and that is to preach and to teach the word and make disciples. It’s an interesting time, Rick. We are seeing a shift in our nation, but, in my opinion, all hope is not lost.
Jack, you said something there that I hadn’t really thought much about and especially in the context of this show today. The watering down and the almost shallow biblical knowledge. I always thought of it, my knee jerk reaction when I hear a preacher signing off on some cultural trend that’s clearly anti biblical, but calling it biblical, my knee jerk reaction is always, “Well, they just want to be popular, they want to be loved by the culture.” You said something that kind of backs up in the timeline to even their seminary education and their foundation not being strong, so they’re more likely to fall to that.
Pastor Jack Hibbs:
Am I understanding that correctly in what you said?
Pastor Jack Hibbs:
No, you’re exactly correct. And, Rick, it”s that article that is out there that’s raised a lot of attention. And you and I are talking today the fact of the matter is we’re watching mainstream traditional conservative seminaries across America. They have compromised greatly. Many of them are backing away, for example, the authority of Scripture, the inerrancy of Scripture. They’re backing away from the homosexual issue, or even Israel. And this is to all of our peril. It’s not to us as pastors to change the word of God – that’s anathema. It’s up to us in this day and age to be faithful to the giving out of the word. Rick, check this out. Is this not true? In 2 Timothy 3:1, Paul said, “But know this that in the last days perilous times will come.” Brother, we’re in them.
We”re Living That Time Now
Pastor Jack Hibbs:
The book of Acts chapter 20 verse 29 says, “For I know this that after my departure salvage wolves–“ listen to this– “will come in among you not spurring the flock also from among your own selves.” Think of our seminaries and many of our pulpits today. “Men will rise up speaking perverse things drawing away disciples–“ listen– “after themselves.” Not pursuing Jesus. And then Paul said, “Therefore watch and remember that for three years I didn’t cease day or night to warn you about these things with tears. We’re living that time now, Rick.
Yeah, oh man, you nailed it. That’s exactly what we’re seeing happen. Even some of these large churches where they’re basically saying, “You know, gospel, might work for you might not work for you. There’s plenty of ways to get to heaven. Plenty of ways to get to God. Jesus is not the only way.”
Pastor Jack Hibbs:
Rick, I might kind of blow the lids off of a couple of people right now, but I read that article and that article boasts that this pastor”s got a church of 10,000 people and he’s teaching and they are embracing that there’s many ways to Jesus. Well, let me counter it this way. I happen to pastor a church of 10,000 people. If I were to say there’s other ways to Jesus, our flock is so well taught in the Word of God they would have thrown me out on the street.
Oh wow, yeah. Yeah.
Pastor Jack Hibbs:
You know what I’m saying? And again, this is where it goes back to at an hour like this when Jesus warned us, and the Apostles warned us, about the last days, we need pulpits holding true to the original gospel which is the one and only. And come what may we– Listen, in the end we’re not going to answer to our boards, we’re not going to answer to our flocks, we’re going to answer to the Lord and the judgment criteria He said would be faithfulness.
Which Church Got the High Scores?
Pastor Jack Hibbs:
In the book of Revelation he gives high scores to the Church of Philadelphia because they did not deny His word or His name. And we’re seeing that happen across the land. I just want to encourage pastors to just be on fire with the word of God, stop reading other junk, get into the Bible like never before. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me.” And how do you think they’re going to hear it? They’re going to hear it by pastors repeating His word from the Bible and let the outcome be God”s. Let the size of your church grow or diminish, as Spurgeon said, “with blessed subtractions” based on the word of God. We are not to win a popularity contest, we”re to be faithful to the word.
You know, Jack, and just following up on that challenge to pastors, challenge to the congregants, because of what you just said. If we don’t want to be caught following a man instead of Christ, if we don’t want to be led astray by false doctrine, then we have to be in the word, we have to be studying, we”ve got to be able to recognize false teaching when it comes.
Pastor Jack Hibbs:
I love it. When Paul was on his missionary journeys he made the comment that these, as he preached in the book of Acts, “And these were more notable than those in Thessalonica.” He’s talking about the Bereans. Paul was actually on guard being careful to preach the pure word of God because he ran into a bunch of believers that knew the word and held him accountable to expound the word. And I love that. I think a well taught flock, and a well teaching pastor rooted, I tell you what, Rick.
And look, this is one reporter’s opinion and I’m glad this is all I have to report on. Our church here in Southern California loves the word of God. If I or any of our pastors depart from it they would expose it. It’s not for them to follow a man, a pastor, a committee, a group. We give them the word of God, they fall in love with Jesus, and that marriage is not going to separate. They’ll hear false doctrine and, Rick, they’ll run from it. And that’s what we need to do – get back to the purity of the church.
Man, brother, that”s why I love having you on. You’re always so encouraging and it’s encouraging for our listeners to know, look, you’re in southern California. You’re out there where some of the crazy stuff is happening and then going to the rest of the country. And yet right there in the middle of all of that a 10,000 member church where the truth is taught, where your members and you are steeped in God’s word. That’s encouraging to all of us across the country and what we should be looking for in our communities in every state across the country.
Pastor Jack Hibbs:
It’s liberating, it’s joy, and it’s faith in Him alone.
Amen, amen. Jack, God bless you, brother. Always great to have you. Let’s get you back again soon.
Pastor Jack Hibbs:
Amen, Rick. God bless you guys.
That”s pastor Jack Hibbs out there in Calvary Chapel Chino Hills. Stay with us, folks. We’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.
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Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Thanks to Pastor Jack Hibbs for joining us today as well. We’re back with David and Tim Barton. And of course, David, you’ve got a whole book on this with George Barna talking about how far off the rails we’ve gone in a lot of our churches across the country teaching the exact opposite of what the Bible actually teaches. And why we need, actually, a true u-turn to get back to those truths.
If You Don”t Know Where You Are
Yeah, we have to get back there and I encourage people to grab that book. It really does give some good ways on how to get back, but it also helps establish where you are. And if you don’t know where you are you don’t know where you need to go. You can imagine trying to navigate a map, and if you have a compass and a map, but don’t know where you are on that map, you’ve got no clue what you’re doing. And so U-Turn is a really good book to help get grounded, help see where we are, help see what so many around us believe.
Even those in our own fellowship that may call themselves Christians, this gives you the statistical probabilities of what they believe because it shows what most Christians across the nation believe by percentage wise. And granted, there’s exceptions to all that and we recognize that. But it is a good guide book for that. And Jack kept going– and by the way, I’ve got to say he used some verses I haven’t thought of in a good while.
Tim, Rick, all of us we try to read through the Bible from cover to cover once a year. But I had flat forgotten, or just not recently noticed, that verse that Paul gave when he was warning the church and when he said, “Alright, guys, from your own cells will men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them.” I thought, “Now, that’s interesting – out of our own midst as Christians there are going to be people who arise as Christians speaking perverse things to draw away people away from the gospel truth.”
And that really is where the problem is coming right now. It’s not outside. Hollywood’s got its own problems, but that’s not why people are leaving the faith. They’re leaving the faith because Christians are giving perverse things, or twisted, or perverse in the sense of if it”s twisted it”s not accurate, it’s not on point. We’re giving, like that preacher we read at the beginning, 10,000 people in his church.
Hey, if you think that Jesus said, “If you don’t go to heaven through Me than you’ll go to hell.” He said, “Jesus didn’t teach.” Yes he did. All over the Bible. So, I thought that was a really good verse that Jack brought out on that. I hadn’t even thought about that verse, but that really is where the church is right now.
Not the Only One
Well, at least Jack”s an example. And, of course, we say Jack’s a good example – he’s not the only one, right. These pastors briefings we have we deal with pastors all over the country that are returning, not returning, they’re sticking with those truths and not being swayed by the cultural shifts that are happening right now.
Yeah, Rick, I’m glad you pointed that out because it is something that it’s easy to look at these numbers and statistics and even be discouraged like, “Oh my gosh. What is happening to the church? What’s happening to Christians in America?” And we can lose sight of the fact that in the midst of– as you read the Bible, in the midst of everything God did when there was judgment, when the people fell away, there was always a remnant that God protected, there was always a remnant that was seeking after God.
And I would say in America we don’t just have a remnant, we have some really good strong leaders.
Certainly, they’re outnumbered, right. We can look at a lot of pastors and a lot of denominations and see, man, the doctrine their following is just not biblical. But there are some great pastors out there. It’s just that there is a battle in front of us for what is truth. Which ultimately, even goes back to the beginning in the garden where where the surf comes up to Eve and Eve says, “Well, God told us this.” “Well, did God really say that?” This is kind of the battle is is that really what the Bible says, is that really what the Bible means.
And this is where we have to defend this this line of truth because if the Bible is not true well then there’s not a foundation for belief in Christianity. Christianity makes no sense to believe in if the Bible is not true. And, fortunately, there are some really great guys defending truth. It”s just, there”s not enough Christians know the truth yet.
It Goes Back to Individual Christians
Yeah. Tim, you’re exactly right. Which, really leads me back to something that is really good about what Hibbs said. Because he said, “If I tried to say that stuff in my church my congregation would throw me out of the pulpit.”
And I thought, “Hey, that’s exactly right, we can blame lots of stuff, but you know what? It ultimately goes back to the individual Christian. If they do not know the Bible themselves, if they’re waiting on someone else to spoon feed them instead of feeding themselves, that’s not a healthy position to be in. And Jack is right, his church would throw him out if he were to do something like that. And Tim, you were talking about a remnant–
And it”s probably worth noting that is the position churches should be at. So, why aren’t they there? And one of the things that Jack pointed out I thought was great is– and, Rick, you brought attention to this with your question is, what’s up with the seminaries? Because shouldn’t pastors be learning biblical theological truth, right? The inerrancy of Scripture, the infallibility of Scripture, shouldn’t that be something they’re learning in seminary?
And frankly, a lot of seminaries are not presenting the Bible as absolute truth, they”re not presenting absolute moral truths as being revealed from God, and Jesus is the Savior of the world. They are not teaching what the Bible teaches anymore. And that’s why not only do we have pastors going the wrong way, we have Christians going the wrong way, because we’re not learning truth anymore.
Training Young People on Truth
And, Tim, even if the seminaries aren’t doing it right, part of the reason we work with youth is to raise the next generation to know that. In fact, that’s why you’re calling today instead of being in studio – you’re working with young people right now at High Point. So, you’re spending a whole week with these other leaders training these young people on truth. That’s got to be encouraging for you as you see their reactions and see them absorbing that. And frankly, articulating it back to you.
Yeah, Rick, just like we talked about with Jack Hibb”s church where he has a church that is standing on biblical truth. And we talked about at the very beginning that his church is growing because people are hungry for truth. We see it with young people. We have conversations and we’re real – we talk about real issues. Whether it be pornography, or relationships, or science, or evolution, or abortion.
We talk about things that are real issues in these kids lives, things they deal with. And we address it from a biblical perspective and say, “What does the Bible say? So if the Bible says this, then what should we do? And what’s true? And what’s right?” We give them an apologetic – not only of what the Bible says, but of why we believe what the Bible says, why we follow what the Bible says, why the World’s ways are empty and don’t work.
Even though there might be temporary pleasure there is long term pain. It’s a world of brokenness and not going to be successful doing it that way. And we see these kids, the eyes that are opened, and they get fired up, they get passionate about truth, they get passionate about the word of God, and they’re forever changed. There”s a transformation that takes place when truth is presented because people want truth.
Jesus Is No Longer The Only Way For American Christians
Well, they want truth and they can get more of it at our website – WallBuildersLive.com. Go into those archives of the program, but also just by getting some of the WallBuilders material and using this at home, teaching yourself and your family. Go to WallBuilders.com to find more of those things. I’m telling you, you will see results in your own family and in your own life. David was talking earlier about reading through the Bible once a year, it’s vital that we do that. Get the Founders Bible, all these fantastic tools. Go get them at WallBuilders.com.
And then help us spread the word. Join us. Come alongside us at WallBuilders.com. You can make a one time donation, or a monthly donation, that helps to spread the word. It helps us to expand the reach of this radio program and the entire WallBuilders ministry. We appreciate you coming alongside us. Thanks for listening to WallBuilders Live.
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