Evolution-creation argument:  Creator of the Truth Project, Dr. Del Tackett, releases powerful new movie investigating Genesis account of Creation and the scientific evidence for creation and a creator. Is Genesis History? is in theaters Feb 23rd.

Air Date: 02/22/2017


Guests: Del Tackett, David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast.  However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers.  Additionally, names may be misspelled because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Welcome

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture, this is WallBuilders Live! Where we’re talking about today’s hottest topics on policy, faith, and culture all from a Biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. You apply those three and you’re probably going to come up with the right answer.

We’re here with David Barton.  He’s America’s premiere historian and the founder and president here at WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker and pastor. And my name is Rick Green. I’m a former Texas state rep.

We’re a national pro-family organization here at WallBuilders, presenting America’s forgotten history and heroes with an emphasis on our religious, moral, and constitutional heritage. You can find out more at WallBuilders.com and also WallBuildersLive.com. Both of those websites are new and a lot of great information on them. So, we really encourage you to go check those out.

Especially, WallBuilders.com.  Brand new in the last few weeks and we’re pretty proud of it. We think it turned out really well. And you’re going to enjoy being able to go through there and find out about all the different programs and just learn as you go through the website. It really brings the WallBuilders library to life.

Was The World Really Created In Six Days

Rick:

David, Tim, the topic today is that of creation.  And it’s one that we’ve talked about before but it’s been a little while.

David:

It has been a little while.

Tim:

Do you mean since creation?

Rick

Not quite that long.

David:

Yeah, it’s been several billion years since the big bang happened.

Tim:

Well, it depends on who you talk to because I’ve heard millions and billions.  And it seems like there would be more consensus in the scientific community. And I just can’t find an accurate number. I guess we have six thousand years of recorded human history and so maybe more in the thousand realm. I don’t know.  It’s interesting.

Rick:

Well, David, you were there.

David:

Yeah.  That’s right.

Tim:

So were those literal days of creation?

Rick:

I always enjoyed that Huckabee quote. Do y’all remember that in the 2008 race?  He’s in that debate. Of course, you know Wolf Blitzer and everybody would throw him anything that was a religious question since he was the former pastor.

They asked him about this and he goes to a great answer.  And then Wolf comes back to, “Well, was it six days or not?” And he said, “Well, I don’t know Wolf.  I wasn’t there.” It was great. 

David:

And I’m sorry Rick. I wasn’t there, either, so I can’t help you answer the question.

A Significant And Powerful Film

Rick:

Alright, alright.  Well, later in the program we’re going to have Dr. Del Tackett with us. He’s been doing some research for the last two years all over the over the world. They’ve got a movie coming out tomorrow night. We’ll talk about that a little later. So, he wasn’t actually there at the time but-

David:

One of the things about what we do, because we’ve got this national program, we have people send us movies all the time asking us to preview it. And we get a lot, a lot of them will say, “No thank you.” This one, this was really cool! I mean this was like that kind of stuff you would show the Omni theaters where it wraps around you and you’d feel like you’re right in the middle of it.

It was really some significant stuff.  The cinematography was just fantastic.  The stuff they covered and where they went and what they did was just fabulous stuff. So, this is one that we’re saying, “Hey, yeah, this one comes out tomorrow night.  It’s in theaters only tomorrow night.”

This is a fathom event and those are the events that they’re doing in hundreds of theaters for one night. You get to go see it.  And so this is one we’re telling you upfront, put it on your calendar for tomorrow night. This is a really, really, really cool one. This is one that you’re going to enjoy from a visual perspective as well as an intellectual and spiritual perspective.  It’s really good.

Rick:

That’s good stuff. It’s Genesis History.  And Del Tackett who did it will be with us later in our program. But David, you were beginning to talk about, well maybe you weren’t yet beginning to talk about, but I wanted to ask you about the Founders’ view of creation.  Before we talk about what we’re finding out today. They didn’t have all the research that we’ve had in the last 200 years but they had to have had some views about this.

Evolution-Creation Argument

David:

Well, it’s significant that when you look at that-now I’m going to take it back before the Founders for a little bit or at least set the Founders up. I was asked by a law review journal to write an article because they were doing a series on the anniversary of the Scopes Trial.

The Scopes Trial was the famous evolution versus creation trial that dealt with the Tennessee law that made it illegal to teach anything other than creation. So in that trial they went through and laid it all out. So I was asked to write a historical law review article that went back.

What I found very interesting was that every single thing we hear in evolution today, on all the big arguments, they had all been established 500 years B.C.  Darwin didn’t come up with new stuff. What Darwin did was take 2,300 years of scientific theories and put them into one book and made it pretty easy to go through.

So, the first thing that struck me was the evolution-creation argument, this is really old stuff, back to 500 years B.C.  You’ve already got the big bang.  You’ve got the primordial slime.  And you’ve got the evolution of man through all the stages. That was a long time ago.  So Darwin wasn’t the guy.  He just synthesized what had been out there.

So, if the debate has been there for that long, then clearly there is an opposing side to that debate. As I got back into it, sure enough, you found that great philosophers from years, and centuries, long time, millennia, before the Founding Fathers already had staked out their turf on this.

What Was Before The Big Bang

Then, as I started looking toward how America dealt with that debate from the very beginning, we have things posted on our website that I found very intriguing. For example, the senior paper of Daniel Webster at Dartmouth, when he gave his senior oration 1801, we have it on the website. It’s all about creation-evolution.

You could’ve given it a week ago. There’s nothing really new. Darwin wasn’t out yet but you read that that argument you go, “Wow, same stuff we’ve got today.” And the same when you start reading in about the Founding Fathers. They dealt extensively with the evolution-creation issue.

Tim:

Well, let me let me just point out, there’s only so many ways that you can try to explain God away. So either God created, or something else happened. There’s only so many options for what else could have happened. “It was this big bang.” Well, maybe, but then if there’s a big bang what caused it to bang? “It was evolution.” Well, ok, but if there was this little particle, where did the particle come from?

And actually, there was a particle and then it expanded from this single cell organism to multiple cell. How do you explain this irreducible complexity concept? Where it’s so complex, could it have come from a single form?

Just Not A Good Enough Answer

And so there’s always been people trying to explain it. But there’s always been questions that really could not be explained through this thought of evolution or macroevolution in this case. Or the Big Bang. And really that’s historically where you see so many scientists lining up saying, “This just can’t answer questions well enough.” And so there has to be some great originator, the great cause.  There has to be something the head of the universe out there.  And it’s so much what you see historically.

David:

It’s pretty cool to see why the Founding Fathers came down on the side they did. They had very lucid quotes, very pointed quotes, but the philosophy behind why they came down is what’s really intriguing.

Rick:

Gonna take a quick break. David, when we come back we’ll get that philosophy from the Founders on this question of, “Is Genesis history?” Stay with us.  You are listening to WallBuilder Live.

Moment From American History

This is Tim Barton with another moment from American history.  As the American War for Independence began, the president of Yale was the Reverend Naphtali Daggett. When New Haven, the home of Yale, came under attack about a hundred citizens rushed out to meet the British.

The Reverend Daggett galloped by them on horseback, his clearable robes flowing behind him in the wind. He took up a solitary position atop a hill. The twenty-five hundred British soon put the townsfolk to flight but the Reverend Daggett continued to stand alone firing down on the advancing troops.

A British officer confronted him, “What are you doing there you old fool? If I let you go, will you ever fire again on the troops of his majesty?”

“Nothing more likely,” was the preacher’s reply. America’s early pastors personally confronted danger and courageously led their communities.

For more information on Pastor Daggett and other colonial Patriots, go to WallBuilders.com.

The Founders Thought This Was A Significant Issue

Rick:

We’re back, thank you for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. David and Tim Barton here with us talking about Is Genesis History, a new movie coming out tomorrow night. Del Tackett will be with us after our next break to talk about that. David, you were beginning to give us a little bit of the Founders’ perspective in how they came to their conclusions.

David:

Yeah, the Founders really said this was a significant issue. You had to come down on the right side of this issue or you would get the wrong result in a civilization. This issue would affect civilization.  And that’s what I found very intriguing back in the Scopes Trial in 1925.

In that trial himself, Darrel, who argued for the evolution side, he pointed out that this was a battle of civilizations. I thought, “That’s an intriguing concept.” It’s not a battle of science.  It’s a battle of civilizations.

And they went through and looked at what that would mean, that this is not just a science debate.  This will affect how you run your government.  It will affect the type of laws you have.  It will affect what you do in education.  It will affect how you approach science, and just so many.  It would completely transform the culture depending what side you came down.

So, it’s not a science debate. It’s, as they said, “A clash of civilizations, the clash of cultures.” So, when I got back to the Founding Fathers, looked at what they started saying about it, they had the same viewpoint.

A Created Being Has A Creator

If you came down on the evolution side here’s what would happen to your culture. And if you came down to the creation side this is what it would do in your culture. Just the fruits of each of those made it really easy to choose

Now, Del has gone after this with a scientific viewpoint. They went after it with a philosophical viewpoint, also belief in the Scriptures. But, I’ll start with James Wilson. James Wilson signed the Declaration and the Constitution, second most active member of the Constitution Convention. George Washington put him on the U.S. Supreme Court as an original justice. He started the First Law School and he wrote the first law books.

Listen to what he tells these kids, the first law books used in American law school, the first organized law school we have. He says, “Man, considered as a creature, a creative being, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his Creator. For he is, therefore, an entirely dependent being. A being independent of any other has no rule to pursue but such as he prescribes to himself. But a state of dependence will inevitably oblige the inferior to take the will of him on whom he depends has the rule of his conduct. Consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his maker for everything. It’s necessary that he should at all points conform to its Maker’s will.”

He said, “Now if you’re a created being, you have a creator.  And if you have a creator then you have to follow the will of the Creator.” So your will is not your own. You have to submit and conform to His will.

As he points out, if you don’t, then he says, “You can prescribe to yourself your own conduct.” You get to decide what’s right and wrong.  You get to choose what’s up and down.  You get to choose where east and west is and where north and south is.  You get to make all those choices.

The Tiger And The Shark

That’s what John Quincy Adams called “the law of the tiger and the shark.” But if you have a creator then you have a moral obligation to follow the purpose for which you were created. And he gets to set the rules and laws.

Rick:

Let me ask you, though, what if it is the law of the tiger shark? If you go down that road, what does that mean, though, to us in the culture? How does that change the society we’re in?

David:

“There are no absolute rights and wrongs.  Every person does that which is right in their own eyes.” You will have anarchy.  You will have tyranny.  And you will have high violence rates, because, “What is right for me is not right for you. I think it’s okay for me to take your property. But you don’t like me doing that so you shoot me. But I don’t think you should have shot me so I’m going to shoot all your family.”

Rick:

And then if I’m going to riot it’s ok for me to riot with violence.  Rather, you go back to MLK, he was protesting because of his Biblical worldview. He said that there is responsibility here.  There are consequences. So it is peaceful.

David:

The law of the tiger and the shark. Tell me when there is a wrong that happens in a shark community or tiger community, how did they settle it? Whoever’s got the biggest fangs, the biggest teeth, or the biggest claws.  It is brute force.

There is no right and wrong except what they themselves can enforce. And when you’re no longer the head of the tribe or you’re no longer the big shark out there then you’re going to be meat for somebody else. That is “the law of the tiger and the shark.”  It is pure brute force based on the will of whoever has the most force at that point in time.

When Individuals Decide Right From Wrong

Rick:

And the Founders were wise enough to look at that and go, “That’s not the society we’d want to have.”

David:

“The society we want to have has order to it. We believe there is a creator and he told us things like, ‘Don’t murder and don’t steal, etc.” Now, there’s no law of the tiger and shark that says don’t murder don’t steal. You do all that and you can get away with it.

In a society where there is no maker to give you laws to govern yourself, imagine living in a society where there is nothing except what that person decides is right and wrong. The problem is if you have a society like that then whoever becomes the president becomes the dictator for that four years or until they have a revolution to throw them out.

Which is why across the world the average length of a constitution is 17 years. They have forceful bloody revolutions time, after time, after time. We’ve avoided that because we believed that there was a creator and we were accountable to Him for our behavior and so we acted differently.

Like God’s Word Principles Never Change

Tim:

Also because in the midst understanding that there’s a creator, and what we outlined in the Declaration, is given rights to man, we understand that there’s principles that God made that the world functions according to.

So we said, “If you follow a certain set of principles, of philosophy, it makes a difference.” When you look at so many other national constitutions, constitutions from different nations, they don’t always base it on principles. They get in the nitty gritty in the details.

One of the cool things about our Constitution and the way our Founding Fathers even set up our nation to operate is it was based on principles. And those principles are just like what you see in the Word of God.  Principles don’t change the same way other things do.

That’s one of the cool things even as we’re talking about Genesis.  One of the cool things in Genesis you see God outlines certain principles that he made in the world that the world would operate according to the certain structural principles.

If you understand those principles you can be successful, or you can have a great marriage, and family, and your life can be really good. But it’s understanding those principles which then again goes back to believing that there’s a God who created the world and made principles to operate that way.

David:

Listen to what John Quincy Adams said on this. He said, “The creator, of course, supposes the existence of a God, the moral ruler of the universe, and a rule of right and wrong, of just and unjust, binding upon man.

He said, “I have at all times been a sincere believer in the existence of a supreme creator of the world and of an immortal principle within myself responsible to that creator for my conduct upon earth.”

The Fear Of The Lord

David:

You see, for me, the reason I don’t rob a 7-Eleven is not because I’m afraid of a cop shooting me. I believe that I answer to God if I rob a 7-Eleven. It’s not the cop that keeps me straight. It’s it’s my belief that I will answer, that I am accountable.

As he said, “An immortal principle, I will live after I die here on Earth. And when I do I am responsible to my creator for my conduct on earth.”

What keeps me and so many other people straight is the fear of the Lord.  I believe there is a creator. I believe he gives rules of right and wrong, as John Quincy Adams said.  I believe that I am an immortal person that I will live after I die and I will stand before my creator and I will be judged for my conduct on Earth. That’s what keeps me straight. And you know what? That’s what keeps a society straight.

When you have citizens who believe that principle, they’re not going to steal from their neighbor.  They’re not going to rape their neighbor.  They’re not going to hurt propert.  They’re not going to burn down buildings.  They’re not going to destroy other people’s property.

That goes back to the creator concept.  That’s why what Del is arguing in this movie Is Genesis History, is it just a book of fables or is that a real book? And if it’s a real book then that means there’s a real creator and if there’s a real creator then that changes the course and the direction of the culture of a nation. That’s why this really is an important movie to see.

Rick:

Dr. Del Tackett our special guest today.  Stay with us.  You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

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Scientific Evidence Supporting History In Genesis

Rick:

Welcome back.  Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Our good friend Del Tackett is with us.  He’s a former president of Focus on the Family Institute, and former senior V.P. of Focus on the Family, with a great new movie coming out called Is Genisis History.

You can find out more at the website IsGenesisHistory.com.  We’ll have links today at WallBuildersLive.com. Dr. Tackett, thanks so much for joining us today!

Del:

Hey, it is a pleasure to be with you, Rick.

Rick:

Hey, you did such a phenomenal job with the Truth Project. I mean, hitting so many issues head on and millions of people were educated by that, churches and groups across the country. What made you shift specifically to this question of, “Where did we come from? Is Genesis actually truth?”

Del:

Yeah, I’m not so sure we’d call it a shift really because in the Truth Project we actually spent two tours looking at the whole area of science.

Rick:

So you decided to zero in more on a particular area.

Rick:

Yeah, I think we are really at a point now, especially what’s happening in some of what I would call the hierarchy of evangelical Christianity. I don’t mean higher in terms of quality. You know I mean by that.ur seminaries and professors and some prominent pastors 

Our seminaries and professors and some prominent pastors I think have been persuaded by a current scientific paradigm that is leading us to actually begin to deny that there was a real Adam and Eve, along with a lot of other things that I think a Biblical worldview is rooted in. So, that’s why I thought, “Hey, let’s do this movie and help people see that there is scientific evidence that supports that history in Genesis.”

Two Years Filming This Movie

Rick:

It’s a super well-done broadcast, phenomenal.  You go all over the world program.  And it and it’s going to be in theaters only one night, tomorrow night February 23rd, folks.

So tomorrow night, Thursday night the 23rd, you’ve got to get tickets.  And, Del, you’ve got on your website places they can go.  So this plays once in the movie theater and you want to see this in the theater right? I mean, that type of things y’all have shot here just look great on the big screen.

Del:

Well, we shot it in 4K and so there is something really neat about the visuals at Mount St. Helens, and scuba diving and St. Thomas, the Grand Canyon, and the zoo, the soft dinosaur tissue.  So I think visually it’s going to be quite pleasing for people.

Of course, you get into a movie theater and you’ve got all that sound as well. So I think that theaters is the right place to see it.

Del:

And you actually do all of those things right? I mean, you’re doing the scuba diving and the whole nine yards?

Del:

That’s exactly right. I’ll tell you, the hike when we went to Mount St. Helens we hiked down to the Little Grand Canyon. I’m telling you, that was quite an adventure hiking down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. So yeah, I’m there on location with these scientists. And it was it was an amazing two years.

The Foundational First Eleven Chapters

Rick:

The things you’ll do to get answers to these questions. The questions we’re talking about, you know, “Was the universe created in six literal days? Did humans evolve? Were Adam and Eve real, or is it just a story? Was there a global flood? What happened to the dinosaurs?”

I mean, you’re you’re diving into some big questions that really by answering these questions are seeking truth on the on these questions, it sets your whole paradigm and you and your worldview.

Del:

Well, it really does. I think some people may not be aware of just how deep the roots are of a Biblical worldview into that historical Genesis account, in Genesis 1-11. This is where we understand that man is made in the image of God.

It’s where we understand the basis for male and female. I mean my goodness, we are wrestling if you can believe that, today in our world, about that, about marriage, about why there is evil in the world, sin, the first promise of the Messiah, God’s judgment in terms of his holiness and in response to the wickedness of man and in the flood and the result the geological result that we see all over the world.

So in the genesis of languages and people group.  So there is a huge amount of foundation for a Biblical worldview found right there in those first 11 chapters.

Providing Another Scientific Perspective

Rick:

But it’s such an important time of course for God’s providence. But for you to have started on this two years ago and we’re just in a place in our culture where people are questioning this. I’ve got teenagers that are that are coming up and they’re at that point of you know really starting to figure out what they believe not just what mom and dad have said.

So this is so important to get good information to them not from the standpoint of, “Hey, this is what the Bible says so you have to believe it.” But, “Hey, let’s investigate here and let’s, with reason, prove this evidence so that we’re not just doing this because somebody told us but because we found truth.”

Del:

Right. And that’s one of the things I really hope will happen, Rick, with folks, because I think most of the people who go to this movie are probably the massive evangelical Christians who want to read God’s word as it’s written but they are pounded from academia, media, even signage in the parks and the rangers will say all these things that are in line with the current scientific paradigm.

So I’m hoping that they’ll at least walk out with a renewed confidence that God gets his history right. And that you don’t have to settle for people saying, “Well, you’re stupid or unscientific” if you believe in near time in terms of the earth and the things around us because these are some very very, smart scientists and some very credible scientific evidence.

Spread The News

Rick:

It’s incredibly well done, Dr. Tackett! Thank you for taking on this project! We’re really wanting to encourage our listeners to go to the movie theaters tomorrow night. Again, on the website you can get a list of all the theaters right there. IsGenesisHistory.com, click on the on the ticket button.

Hundreds of theaters across the country.  Go check it out.  Encourage your friends and family.  If your folks at your church don’t know about it, send e-mails, Facebook, the whole nine yards. Dr. Tackett, God bless you, man.  Appreciate what you’re doing.

Del:

Hey, thank you, Rick! And God bless you guys are doing there!

Rick:

Well, that was Dr. Del Tackett. Really encourage you to check out that website and go check out the movie tomorrow night. Back with David and Tim, now. Hey, David, you’re a scuba diver too.  You should have been over there with him.

David:

Oh man, that would have been cool. I’m telling you, when you look at the quality of photography they have, you actually kind of feel like you were with them. It was it was just really fabulous stuff. And so I think people will really enjoy this tomorrow night. It’s a great movie you can take people to see it with you. It’s real good.

Jesus Spoke About Adam, Eve, And The Creation

Some of the things Dale said there really struck me. He said, “It’s significant even pastors and seminaries are moving away from believing that there’s a real Adam and Eve and a real creation.” Now the problem is, if you do that, then you have thrown out all of the Bible because even Jesus in the New Testament talked about Adam and Eve and the creation.

So, if that didn’t exist then now you have Jesus the liar, Jesus the guy who believes mythology, and you can’t follow anything else Jesus says. So the fact that you have pastors and seminaries teaching against the book of Genesis, that’s a significant fatal shift for Christianity.

Tim:

How does he start the book of John? In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God the Word was God. He was the beginning and through Him all things were made. Without Him nothing was made that has been made.

So not just Jesus quoting but the whole foundation of Jesus and the Gospel is built on back in Genesis and creation. So this really is a significant deal and how many doctrines of the Christian faith are based on the foundation of Genesis?

Rick:

Well you know, I love the fact that Del said, “Genesis 1-11, those are key chapters. Genesis has 50 chapters.  They’re all important, but he pointed 1-11 because that’s where you get so much of the creation and what that worked out.

There’s a reason that the book of Genesis is called, “The Seed Plot of the Bible.” That is every major doctrine Christianity is planted, it’s a seed plot.  It’s the plot of land where you plant the seeds for a garden.  It’s a seed plot of the Bible every major seed of what we believe as God fearing people of faith, Jews, Christians, whatever, it grows out of that garden of Genesis 1-11. So that’s key to everything in the Christian or Jewish faith is that part and that’s what this movie deals with tomorrow night is Genesis 1-11 and what the Bible says.

Rick:

Check it out at their website tonight. You can find out which theaters are close to you.  Go see it tomorrow night in theaters.  You will enjoy it. Thanks so much for listening today.  You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live!