Former Muslim Warns Christian Leaders: In today”€™s episode, we have the privilege of interviewing Mark Christian on his experience growing up in an Islamic home and the rising capitulation that Americans feel towards Islam.   Today”€™s broadcast is really a wake-up call and warning to Christians.  We discover how we”€™re actually submitting to and furthering Islam through appeasement. We must stand up!  

Air Date: 01/17/2018

Guest: Dr. Mark Christian

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton

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Faith And The Culture

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture.  This is WallBuilders Live! Where we”€™re talking about today”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture, sometimes international topics as well. Today”€™s topics is both international and it applies here in the U.S. as well.

We’re here with David Barton, he”€™s America’s premier historian and our founder at WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, he”€™s the president of WallBuilders and a national speaker and pastor. And my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator. We’re always looking at these topics from a Biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

And you can get more of our programs at our website WallBuildersLive.com. Or you can go to WallBuilders.com  and get a wealth of information, and DVDs, and books, and articles. So, check that out to help equip your family on these various issues.

We”€™re Dealing With Islam Today

Rick:

David, Tim, talk about a hot topic, we’re dealing with Islam today. And the capitulation sometimes not only to living in an Islamic state, like territory that ISIS used to have or other Islamic states. But sometimes capitulation here in the U.S. with the way we treat Islam or the way we even speak about Islam. Later in the program, Mark Christian will be with us to talk about this. He grew up in it so he knows of what he speaks.

David:

I was going to say, Rick, that you, me, Tim, we can say what we think about Islam, but Mark is just a little bit different. Mark’s resume is fairly impeccable on what Islam believes. He was really, really, really, deeply steeped in Islam, was a teacher in Islam. Actually, he’s from Egypt and his father was a lieutenant general in the Egyptian military. His father was the personal physician for Anwar Sadat, the President of Egypt.

And Anwar Sadat course goes back to the peace accords with Israel. But his father is one of the governing People of the Muslim Brotherhood. And his uncle was one of the founders of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Tim:

Wow. Now, for his family being so seemingly dedicated Muslims to have the name Mark Christian seems kind of–

David:

In your face.

Tim:

— not Muslim.

Rick:

That does seem a little.

He Needed to Disappear

David:

That’s the name he took after he became a Christian because he needed to disappear and he needed he needed his name to disappear.

Rick:

Well, I would imagine. You’re in– there are threats against your life just for converting to Christianity.

David:

Yeah.

Rick:

In his case, he’s in the thick of it, right. If his family is that well connected to the Muslim Brotherhood and all these things.

David:

Yep.

Rick:

I would think for him it’s ten times worse.

David:

Well, it is worse and he still has a lot of security stuff he has to watch with. And that’s why his name, his address, his phones, what he uses, he goes through security measures that most of us never think of. But we’ve had him here at WallBuilders.

Tim:

Well, why would he do that? His family believes in peace, right? They”€™re a religion of peace.

David:

You”€™re right, I forgot it”€™s a religion of peace.

Tim:

He shouldn”€™t need to change his name because they”€™re loving people I’m sure. It”€™s his father, it”€™s his uncle, surely they like Christians.

David:

Yeah, it”€™s got to be. You’re right, I forgot they were a religion of peace.

It”€™s a Little Oxymoronic Sometimes

Tim:

Yeah, it does seem a little oxymoronic except when you are a real-life person. And I can only imagine with his family being so heavily involved in this, the things that he sees, the things that he has known about, that he knows that have gone on. And really, the fact he converted to Christianity is just an amazing testimony of itself with how heavily he was steeped in this. But certainly, he would be a fun guy to talk to if you asked, “€œHey, so isn’t Islam a religion of peace?”€ He might have some very interesting stories.

David:

Oh, He would. By the way, it’s not just stories. He is a, in Christianity, we”€™d call him a Piqué preacher’s kid. His father was one of the leading Ammans in Egypt. So, he grew up not only as is knowing this stuff, but right in the family with one of the guys who teaches it across the nation.

And so he does have different perspectives which is part of what caught our attention. When here you have a guy with this background kind of saying, “€œHey, Christians, little heads up here, you”€™re getting a bunch of stuff wrong.”€ And it’s a great article that he came out with as a warning to Christians.

Tim:

Yeah, it really was a great article.

David:

And he”€™s a Christian.

Christians, “€œYou Need to Wake up and Pay Attention.”€

Tim:

Yeah, it was a great article telling Christians, “€œYou need to wake up, pay attention.”€ And certainly, there’ll be a link on our website. But really powerful stuff challenging Christians to pay attention.

David:

And by the way, one of the good news pieces that we’ll throw out there, and obviously this is a big concern for Mark, is the Trump administration has now restored words like “€œjihad”€ back into federal documents again. Under Obama, you were not allowed to say anything about jihad, or about radical Islam, or anything else. This is the kind of stuff that Mark watches very intimately. And he sees that is a really, really, good thing because you can’t fight radical jihad if you don’t even know who your enemies are. And so the fact that we’re starting to call them by name again is really good news.

But Mark is just– he is so steeped in this and what he’s got to share to Christians is really significant stuff.

Rick:

Dr. Mark Christian, are our special guest today. Stay with us. We’ll be right back on WallBuilders Live.

Share a veteran’s story

We Want To Hear Your Vet Story

Rick:

Hey friends! If you have been listening to WallBuilders Live for very long at all, you know how much we respect our veterans and how appreciative we are of the sacrifice they make to make our freedoms possible. One of the ways that we love to honor those veterans is to tell their stories here on WallBuilders Live.  Once in awhile, we get an opportunity to interview veterans that have served on those front lines that have made incredible sacrifices have amazing stories that we want to share with the American people.

One of the very special things we get to do is interview World War II veterans. You’ve heard those interviews here on WallBuilders Live, from folks that were in the Band of Brothers, to folks like Edgar Harrell that survived the Indianapolis to so many other great stories you heard on WallBuilders Live.

You have friends and family that also served.  If you have World War II veterans in your family that you would like to have their story shared here on WallBuilders Live, please e-mail us at [email protected].  Give us a brief summary of the story and we’ll set up an interview. Thanks so much for sharing here on WallBuilders Live!

Rick:
Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Our guest today, Mark Christian, great article in The Washington Times Seeking Refuge by Submission. Mark, thanks for joining us today.

Dr. Mark Christian:

Thanks so much for having me.

Rick:

So, you make the point that, no different than if you”€™re actually living in an Islamic state when we seek to not be called Islamophobia by just basically giving in to whatever their wishes are, we’re no different than what you call– and I don’t know if I’m going to pronounce this right, describe, is it, dhimmi?

Dr. Mark Christian:

Dhimmi, yeah.

Rick:

Dhimmi. Okay, so describe what that is, how that works when you live in an Islamic State and the comparison that you’ve made.

Dr. Mark Christian:

Well, I grew up in Egypt and I lived up to the early 30s in Egypt. So, I’m out of experience. I can tell you how it works. And I was on the other side, I grew up as a Muslim. So, I have been on the other side.

We”€™re Subjugated Into the Intimidation of Islam

Dr. Mark Christian:

Unfortunately, since I moved to the United States and I have seen an upgrowing trend of a trend where Americans, and *, and politicians, and everybody else, is kind of subjugated into the intimidation of Islam. And kind of the status is changing towards submission. By submission to everything Islamic and to be afraid to be called anything. The same tactics, but it has a different kind of way of doing it. But at the end of the day, is giving the same results.

That everybody has submitted to the authority of Islam and afraid to get out of the line of how Sharia law and the **.

Rick:

Yeah, there’s a definite, everybody tiptoes around it even in the in the U.S. now. What would be some examples of that kind of– where we might have acted differently? Well, of course, you point out in your article, President Trump recognizing Jerusalem is the opposite of this. He”€™s saying, “€œNo, we’re not going to tiptoe around this issue. We’re going to do this do this right regardless.”€

What would be some examples of how we’ve acted in the last decade or two where we have given in and just said, we just do almost an appeasement type, feel like Chamberlain is back in charge type thing.

Stand for Truth First

Dr. Mark Christian:

Yeah, and there is an enormous amount of examples. Two in particular that comes to mind is when you listen in the media, and you say, “€œYou cannot say that you cannot do that because that will stir up the pot and cause some kind of problems.”€ and so forth. So, since when in America we kind of trade our safety for the truth. That doesn’t work that way. We stand for the truth first and try to make sure that we are safe doing it.

But we do not cower in. This is one of the examples and you can hear that all the time whether from politicians, on media outlets, or in general. But one thing that really breaks my heart the most is the status of the church in America. You know I paid a big price and it is not even close to the prize that I gained through my faith in Jesus Christ. I left Islam and become a Christian and I put my life and faith in the hands of my Savior, Lord Jesus Christ.

And when I see the status of the church in America right now, don’t get me wrong, there are churches who are standing up too, there are churches who are claiming the truth every day. But there is an enormous amount of churches in America right now that is afraid to open its mouth and to say what they should say about Islam. It”€™s a false religion, it”€™s a false prophet, it”€™s a complete opposite of Islam, that Christians are dying in the Middle East and across the globe. And they have been under the authority of Islam for many, many, years and standing for the oppression of the Christians. There is many churches that don”€™t want to say that.

And actually, there is a growing number of churches right now that they want to say, “€œWe worship the same God.”€ And I see that coming out of the pope of the Catholic Church or even some of the leaders in different kinds of denominations in America. Well, that’s all of it. Nothing other than fear of what Islam can do, and the wrath of Islam, and so forth.

Giving Up the Most Important Tenet of the Christian Faith

Rick:

Yeah, even that last part that you were just talking about was what I was thinking about earlier. This whole idea of the capitulation of not even saying, Jesus was right when He said He was the only way. We’re going to go ahead and say that there are other ways. And in an effort to appease, and not have a problem, basically, give up the most important tenet of the Christian faith.

Dr. Mark Christian:

I speak a lot across the country and lately, I have, exactly what you said. One pastor told me that, “€œWe cannot say that Jesus is the only way.”€ I”€™m talking about a pastor in a church telling me that. And then the other priest from a Catholic Church who told me that we cannot share our faith with Muslims because it is offensive and wrong.

Rick:

Wow.

Dr. Mark Christian:

Imagine that coming out of the priesthood and the leadership in the church. And I’m not kidding you, that was a stab in my heart.

Rick:

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Christian:

Because I’m praising the Lord every day that this was not the kind of fashion or Christian leaders when I was seeking my way out of Islam and finding the truth in Jesus Christ. Those are not the kind of leaders I met. God provided me with real Christian leaders who led me in the right direction, and guided me, and answered my questions. I’m praising the Lord. But here’s the thing – what about all of those lost out there–

Rick:

Yeah.

What Do We Believe Now?

Dr. Mark Christian:

— whether they are from the Muslim faith or others. When we are trying to water down our faith to say we all worship the same God, and everybody has his own God, and we have different ways to heaven and so forth. So, what is it that we believe then as Christians now?

Rick:

Yeah, so true, so true. Hey, I”€™ve got to get– back up a little bit here because I didn’t ask you enough about the dhimmi and how that works. When you live in the Islamic– you explain it in the article, we’re going to have a link so people can go and read in the article.

Dr. Mark Christian:

Thank you.

Rick:

But give us a quick explanation of this. So these are people that live in an Islamic state that are not Muslim, but yet the Muslims let them stay there. Which I didn’t think they would typically allow.

Dr. Mark Christian:

Oh, they typically allow it, absolutely. That goes back to the days of Muhammad, the founder of Islam.  Right after his death, by nine years, the establishment of the status of dhimmi is started by his successor Omar.  Back to Omar, he explains very clearly if you want to live as a Christian or a Jew under the authority of Islam in a Muslim country, you have to follow the rules.   It’s spelled out in a document.

Basically, you have to pay your way, you have to pay the jizya, even though the jizya is not applicable right now or it”€™s not actually implemented right now. But the mentality of Muslims is the same. If you are a Christian in my Muslim country, if you’re a Jew in my Muslim country, you have to abide by the rules and regulations that I put on you. You are not supposed to preach. Like, for example, proselytization is against the law in every Muslim country and many other things.

Regulations to Follow

Dr. Mark Christian:

So, if you live as a Muslim or a Christian, if you live as a Jew or a Christian in a Muslim country, there is a set of rules and regulations that you have to follow. Which is put in that document and also under the guidelines of Sharia law and so forth. And if you step outside, then you get killed. You know what inspired me to write this article if you allow me for a second?

Rick:

Sure.

Dr. Mark Christian:  

Is I was looking at– I look at the news in the Middle East all the time and in my home country, Egypt. I’m an American citizen, but I still every now and then look at where I grew up and so forth. And you don’t know this, but having a Bible study at home is forbidden in Egypt. Why? Because it’s considered a home church.

And if you have a church without the right approval from the government, then they have to bring you down. So, that is what happened in Egypt. In a small town, a group of Christians gathering together to have a Bible study in their home. A group of Muslims in a mosque nearby got wind of what’s going on and they were suspicious that that is actually a home church or somebody is having the church in their own home without the right permission. They stormed the place, two people died and ten of them went to the hospital because just having a Bible study at their home.

Rick:

Wow.

Being a Dhimmi

Dr. Mark Christian:

So, if they followed the rules and they went to their own church, then they will be okay. But because they are breaking the law, having a Bible study in their home, which is offensive to Muslims, in a way, then they are under the scrutiny of Islam. And they crossed the line of being a dhimmi and that inspired me to write that article.

Rick:

And you pointed out several other examples. If you’re going to live in that Islamic state like that and there are honor killings, there are all the “€œcultural norms”€ as you put it, you give more description there. You have to close your eyes to that if you’re a dhimmi living in that. And so that’s what you see us doing on a more global scale, is basically capitulating and tolerating these things out of fear that we’re going to stir up the beast.

Dr. Mark Christian:

I’m hoping when you read this article, your eyes will be open to the ideas of dhimmi according to Islam.   Start examining the actions of the media, and the politicians, and the church in America, and every other people around you. And to see if they are acting in a way that is submissive as a dhimmi or they are really doing out of truth and real conviction. You will see many examples around you that have never been before that clear to you. And that’s my hope with this article–

Rick:

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Christian:

— that we need to be aware. Where are we going with this country and how we are leading our church in America right now?

Rick:

Dr. Christian, where can folks connect with you if they’d like to have you in to speak or to get more of your writings?

Being Ignorant is Not an Option Anymore

Dr. Mark Christian:

They can go to the GlobalFaithInstitute.org. The website is up and running and we have a whole bunch of resources. They can reach me directly at [email protected]. And I am more than happy to answer any questions and I am more than happy to be at any events to share my story and different classes that we put together.

It is very important to get educated. Being ignorant in this age is not an option anymore.

Rick:

It’s not, you’re exactly right. And we’ll have a link to that as well – GlobalFaithInstitute.org on our website today at WallBuildersLives.com. Dr. Mark Christian, appreciate your time today. Thanks so much for coming and sharing with us.

Dr. Mark Christian:

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Rick:

Stay with us, folks. We”€™ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.
Biographical Sketches

Hi friends! This is Tim Barton of WallBuilders.This is a time when most Americans don’t know much about American history or even heroes of the faith. I know, oftentimes as parents, we”€™re trying to find good content for our kids to read.

If you remember back in the Bible, the Book of Hebrews it has the Faith Hall of Fame, where they outlined the leaders of faith that had gone before them. Well,, this is something that as Americans we really want to go back and outline some of these heroes not just of American history, but heroes of Christianity and our faith as well.

I wanted to let you know about some biographical sketches we have available on our website. One is called, “€œThe Courageous Leaders Collection“€ and this collection includes people like Abigail Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Francis Scott Key, George Washington Carver, Susanna Wesley, even the Wright brothers.

There’s a second collection called, “€œHeroes of History“€ in this collection you read about people like Benjamin Franklin, Christopher Columbus, Daniel Boone, George Washington, Harriet Tubman, the list goes on and on.

This is a great collection for your young person to have and read. And it’s a providential view of American and Christian history. This is available at WallBuilders.com.

Rick:
Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. Special thanks to Marc Christian for joining us as well. We’re back with David and Tim.

Guys, what a great resource. To have somebody, like you described in the first segment, that grew up in this and you can hear the conviction and the sincerity in his voice when he’s talking about these things.

 

Submitting to Islam By Not Standing Up

Tim:
Well, especially the way he ended the interview talking about how if you look at these nations, things that are not tolerated in those nations. Whether it’s, he mentioned home Bible studies in Egypt, or proselytization, if you speak out against honor killings you get in trouble. And just looking at the way that Islam operates, he says now it’s happening in America. And people are afraid to speak out against it because they don’t to be labeled a hater, right, they’re intimidated. But part of what Islam does is it tries to get you to submit to Islam.

And part of how they’re doing it in America is they’re keeping you afraid of being labeled. And therefore you are submitting by not standing up and saying, “€œWait, we shouldn’t do this, that’s wrong. No, women shouldn’t have to walk behind.  No, they shouldn’t do this. And, no, it shouldn’t be that.”€

It just starts a powerful interview and thought. But especially, as he pointed out, the idea that Americans are yielding to Islam by not standing up and speaking out. I started thinking about just all the areas around me, and all the others institutions, or organizations, or business, or media outlets, and how few of them want to talk about Islam. Or if they do, they always put the caveat, “€œOh, well they”€™re extremists, but really, it’s a religion of peace.”€ And right now Islam is winning the battle of definitions of even itself.

Where they’re saying, “€œHey, don’t judge the fruit of what people actually believe us practice and what they do. No, really, this is who we are. Trust what we say we are, not what you see us do. We’re really a religion of peace.”€ And I thought, “I’m really seeing this around the nation.”

This is a very common thought that you can’t say something is Islam because then you’re intolerant, you’re bigoted, you’re hateful, you’re all these sayings. Well, if you don’t say it’s a religion of peace, then you’re wrong. He just really does a great job pointing out how foolish that is and how as Christians, and really Americans in general, we can’t sit back and watch that happen.

Christians Get Beat Over There and Here We”€™re Afraid They”€™ll Beat Us With Words

David:

Well, and I thought the point made like, for example, home Bible studies. You get beat over there and over here we’re afraid they’ll beat us up with words. They’re physically in fear of their lives and we’re afraid of somebody saying something bad. And so–

Tim:

And by the way, not just in fear of being beat up, right. He talked about that many of them died–

David:

That’s right.

Tim:

— when they showed up. So, for having a home Bible study they showed up and killed people. And that’s not considered the extremists of the nation.

David:

That’s right.

Tim:

Those are not Islamic extremists.

David:

That”€™s the normal stuff.

Tim:

That is under Islam. And this is not me being a hater saying this, this is the reality of the situation. One of the great ironies when people talk about Islam and say, “€œWell, there are extremists and there are peaceful people.”€ I always want to ask the question if there’s a Muslim that I talk to or a Muslim listening, I just wanna know, do you believe in Islam? Because if you believe in Islam, then by definition you are an extremist because Islam is an extremist position.

Tim:

So, you could be a Muslim who doesn’t believe in Islam. Well, then arguably you’re not really a Muslim. It’s like a Christian who doesn”€™t believe in the Bible. Well, then you’re probably not really a Christian. But if you are a Muslim who believes in Islam, then you are an extremist because Islam is extreme in their beliefs, in their behavior, in what they require of the adherents, of those that follow.

And so as we talk about in Egypt people being killed for having a Bible study, those aren”€™t the extremists killing them, those are the people that believe and follow the teachings of Islam.

A Political Philosophy – Not a Religion

David:

See, what you’ve got with Islam is, Islam is not a religion it is a political philosophy that has a religious arm to it. This is a state-established Church of England saying, “€œYou’re going to do this or we will kill the pastor of the pilgrims, or whoever it is.”€ It’s a state-established church. In other words, it is a–

Tim:

Well, and not just church, life philosophy, life *.

David:

That”€™s what I”€™m saying. It is the government telling you what to do, including in your religion. And so they are a philosophy of life that has a religious element to it and they use religion as a cover a lot of times. But I thought what he said about America is, our appeasement over here in churches is, “€œWell, we all worship the same God.”€ No, we don’t.

That ain’t going to be it. When we get to heaven, we’re not going to be standing there with Muhammad and Jesus hugging each other. It’s not that. We don’t worship the same God. It is not– if you think that, you’ve not read the Bible or the Koran.

And so churches need to get a little backbone here and stand up and make things clear. And that’s probably the other thing I would point out is, on the poll that Barna did for us, it”€™s on the website–

Rick:

David, hold that thought on that poll. Folks, we”€™ll get it when we come back from the break. Stay with us. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

Bring A Speaker To Your Area

Tim:

Hey, this is Tim Barton with WallBuilders.  And as you’ve had the opportunity to listen to WallBuilders Live, you’ve probably heard a wealth of information about our nation, about our spiritual heritage, about the religious liberties, and about all the things that make America exceptional.

And you might be thinking, “€œAs incredible as this information is, I wish there was a way that I could get one of the WallBuilders guys to come to my area and share with my group.”€

Whether it be a church, whether it be a Christian school, or public school, or some political event, or activity, if you’re interested in having a WallBuilders speaker come to your area, you can get on our website at www.WallBuilders.com and there’s a tab for scheduling. If you”€™ll click on that tab, you’ll notice there’s a list of information from speakers bio’s, to events that are already going on. And there’s a section where you can request an event, to bring this information about who we are, where we came from, our religious liberties, and freedoms. Go to the WallBuilders website and Bring a speaker to your area.

Rick:
Welcome back, thanks for staying with us. I had to cut David off there, sorry about that, bro. You were just about, as we were going to the break, going to share that poll from Barna, go ahead.
David:
The poll from Barna, one of the top things that people going to church want to hear about, 72 percent of churchgoers said, “€œWe want to hear the pastor teach us about Islam. We don’t know enough about it. We want that.”€ I wonder if 72 percent of pastors are teaching about Islam?

Poll – Christians Want to Be Taught About Islam

Tim:

Well, and let me be even more specific with that Barna poll. It’s 72 percent of Bible-believing Christians.

David:

That’s right.

Tim:

Because there are people who go to church and don’t believe the Bible. And so if you started teaching them Biblical truth, Biblical principles. Or even how Christianity relates to other religions, how they’re different, how it”€™s not all the same God, how that coexist bumper sticker won’t actually work in reality. Well, that would offend a lot of people, but it wouldn’t offend a lot of Bible-believing Christians.

David:

Yeah, and that is the case is, Bible-believing Christians are asking to be equipped on this. Because they do hear that we all worship the same God, it”€™s a religion of peace, etc.. They want their pastors to teach them something. And so we have an opportunity, but Mark’s whole point on appeasement, that we’re doing so many things to appease and when you do, you lose ground.

Tim:

And even with his idea of appeasement, we should love people. And as Christians, we’re supposed to be motivated by love. They would know we”€™re Jesus”€™ disciples by our love for one another. But love and peace aren’t the same thing, right. As a parent, if you have kids, the reason you discipline them is because you love them.

The reason you tell them they’re wrong is because you love them. And we confuse that, well if you love, we’re supposed to be tolerant, we’re supposed to accept all their behavior. Love does not mean tolerance and acceptance. It doesn’t mean this appeasal, it doesn’t mean we sit back and watch and, “€œWell, I don’t want to be confrontational.”€ Jesus was confrontational much of His ministry.

But walking in love is not a contradictory statement. We love them, but because we love them, we want to tell them they’re wrong and we want to lead them to Jesus.

Where Appeasement is Actually Enabling That Which is Wrong

David:

And that’s where appeasement is actually enabling that which is wrong. Rick, you made the comment that “€œChamberlain’s back in charge”€ and folks may not know what that is. But Neville Chamberlain in World War II said, “€œLet’s appease Hitler because we’re just a small little island over here.”€ And so he went over and had this smiling photo op with Hitler, and signed this little agreement that says, “€œOh, we think you guys are great over here and you promised to leave us alone.”€ How did that work out getting bombed every day in London?

Muslim Appeasement

Appeasement actually enables them to do more evil. So, Churchill is the one who came in and said, “€œNever, never, never, never, never, never.”€ And Neville Chamberlain is appeasement and that only enables the wicked to have more strength and more power.
Rick:
Folks, thanks for listening today. Thanks to Dr. Mark Fisher for joining us. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.