Foundations Of Freedom Part Two- The Foundations Of Law: Foundations of Freedom is our latest television program. We are so excited to get share it with you here on WallBuilders Live! In this series, will be discussing The Founders Bible, what kind of influence the Bible had on America, and we also discuss the foundations of law! Tune in now for the second part of this five-part series!

Air Date: 08/27/2019

On-air Personalities: Michele Bachmann


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

 

Faith And The Culture

 

RICK (in studio):

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we”€™re talking about today”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture, always doing that from a Biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

And, this week, it’s a little bit special since we’ve got four of our Foundations of Freedom television programs that we’re sharing. You can get the full series on our website at WallBuildersLive.com. You can download this week’s programs and share them with your friends and family.

Foundations of Freedom TV Programs

If you’d like to see the DVDs of the television program itself, just visit WallBuilders.com and click on the links provided.

Now, yesterday we started with the first episode from Foundations of Freedom called “€œThe Founders”€™ Bible,”€ and that was with David Barton and myself, Rick Green. And, we’re going to get the final conclusion of that here today as we start. Then, we’re going to roll right into that second episode of Foundations of Freedom.

This one is with Michele Bachmann. So, it”€™s a great program lined up for you today. You are going to hear a little bit about the Founders”€™ Bible and then the foundations of law. Here”€™s part of Foundations of Freedom with David Barton.

RICK:

We saw the result and had so many years and generations of the greatest nation in history.

Check the Sources

DAVID:

And, by the way, if you want to know where they’re getting their material, you go to the back of the book to check footnotes. But, it’s not just footnotes. You also want check sources.

If you’re looking in the 1760s, you don”€™t want to be quoting books from the 1960s; you want be quoting books from the 1760s.

RICK:

Yeah.

DAVID:

Because there’s a lot of revision of that happens over history, go back to the original, eyewitness documents. So, go to the back of the book; go to footnotes. And, as we start looking for footnotes, there are no footnote numbers here.

It’s a very short section, just a few pages. Then, we see this quote: “€œWe have dispensed with the usual scholarly apparatus of footnotes.”€

RICK:

So, wait. They’re going to completely change history and what happened in the founding of America, and then not give any evidence?

DAVID:

Not a single footnote. But, I’ve seen court cases where the court says, “€œOh no, you can’t have religious activities in public because we have a godless”€”,”€ and they cite this book as the proof. Hey, how about going back and citing the Founding Fathers?

But, let’s take their speeches and just put the Bible verses in that you don’t recognize anymore.

The Father of Public Schools Wanted the Bible in Schools

RICK:

Or, as you said earlier. the “€œFather of the public schools”€ saying we should have the Bible.

DAVID:

That”€™s right. Or, even Fisher Ames, who did the First Amendment. Why don”€™t we quote him in the courts when he says, “€œDon’t let the Bible get out of schools.”€ Now, we don’t have in schools today.

No worries. You just start reading the Bible for yourself wherever you are. You get into it right now and start knowing the Bible.

RICK:

Yes, and it’s no wonder then, that our foundations are falling apart, we’re losing freedoms , and have forgotten what the foundations are. If we don’t have this in the classroom, as you said, so that they’ll read it later in life, then we’ve got to do something different. We have a situation now where our public schools no longer do what the Father of public schools said to do.

If we want to restore the foundations of freedom, then we’ve got to come back to the biblical foundations. You’re saying we personally need to read it. What else can we do for the culture to get the Bible back in and recognized so that we can have those strong foundations of freedom ?

Roger Sherman

DAVID:

Go back to John Quincy Adams right here. In this little book he did for 10 year olds, he pointed out to them; he said, “€œI read the Bible once every year.”€ Now, that was very common for the Founding Fathers. As a matter of fact, one of our Founding Fathers we rarely talk about today, is a guy named Roger Sherman.

Roger Sherman is the only Founding Father to sign all four founding documents. He’s the guy credited with giving us the bicameral system, whereby we have a House and Senate. He came up with the wonderful innovation of the Electoral College, whereby states and people get a voice in choosing the president.

It’s a great system.

RICK:

He was instrumental in the founding, then.

DAVID:

Yes, he’s a key founder, and nobody knows him today. Now, I have here a newspaper from Washington D.C. This goes back old–and, by the way, Roger Sherman also helped frame the Bill of Rights.

So, he’s in the early Congress and spent several years in Congress. And, this is an early newspaper from back in the 1830s that talks about Roger Sherman in Congress. And, I’m just going to turn to the bottom here to this little note they’ve got about him.

So, look what it says about Roger Sherman: “€œThe volume which he consulted more than any other was the Bible. It was his custom at the commencement of every session of Congress to purchase a copy of the Scriptures, to peruse it daily, and to present it to one of his children on his return.”€

Now, he’s got a famous congressman. And, his habit is, every time he goes to Congress, he takes a new Bible with him. And, as he’s studying the Bible and reading through it every day, he makes annotations in the margin about what the Lord is showing him.

Now, by the way, he had 15 kids. I mean, you have to read the Bible a lot to give a Bible to all of your kids.

RICK:

You”€™ve got a lot of Bibles to pass out.

The One Year Bible

DAVID:

But, these guys read the Bible once every year. That was what they did. Now we need to do that today.

RICK:

Yes.

DAVID:

There are easy ways to do it. Here’s a way anybody can do it: The One Year Bible. Go to any bookstore, get a copy of The One Year Bible. And, if you want to be lazy like some of us do”€”

RICK:
It’s right there on the app.

DAVID:

We”€™ve got an app with it. You can just hit the app, and it’ll read it to you. So, when you”€™re brushing your teeth and getting right in the morning, it will read the daily. All you have to do is read three chapters a day of the Bible, and you’ll cover the entire Bible in a year. That’s easy.

RICK:

So, are you saying to folks out there that might be watching, who want to restore foundations and have started studying the Founding Fathers and the founding documents, that it is just as important to study that founding document, the Bible, as it is to study the Constitution?

DAVID:

You want to understand their speeches if you don’t understand where they got their ideas.

RICK:

Yeah.

DAVID:

And, we’re told by Jesus in Matthew 12:34 that “€œout of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.”€

RICK:

Okay. So, read the Bible at home.

DAVID:

Make it a family thing. Once year”€”

RICK:

And individually, read through the Bible. That’s following in the footsteps of the Founding Fathers.

DAVID:

And, if you want to see how the Bible applies, that’s what the Founders”€™ Bible does.

RICK:
Yes.

DAVID:

It takes all these Bible verses the Founders used and shows you where they took Bible verses and applied it in government. So, read the One Year Bible, go through it once a year. If you and see how it applies, read the Founders”€™ Bible.

Memorize Scripture

The second thing you do is, start memorizing Scriptures. It is an easy thing to do. Memorize, as a starting place, Psalm 119:10-11.

That verse ends up by saying: “€œThy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against you.”€ Start by hiding His Word in your heart. It is a really simple thing to do.

RICK:

And, I’m assuming that the Founding Fathers did that, because these speeches you shared with us, they were getting up, off the cuff, and were giving those speeches.

DAVID:

That”€™s right.

RICK:

And, they were quoting verse after verse after verse.

DAVID:

Yes, just spontaneously giving a speech. Whatever they saw happen, they addressed– Patrick Henry’s in the debate. He’s in the heat of the debate; guess what came out of his mouth.

RICK:

Yeah.

Speak the Word

DAVID:
See, that’s the third thing: start speaking the Word. But, you can’t speak the Word if it’s not inside. So, you start by reading the Word, then memorizing it so it’ll start coming out when you speak.

And, that’s one of the things we can do to restore the Foundations of Freedom in America.

Biographical Sketches 

TIM:

Hi friends! This is Tim Barton of WallBuilders.This is a time when most Americans don’t know much about American history or even heroes of the faith. I know, oftentimes as parents, we”€™re trying to find good content for our kids to read.

If you remember back in the Bible, the Book of Hebrews it has the Faith Hall of Fame, where they outlined the leaders of faith that had gone before them. Well, this is something that as Americans we really want to go back and outline some of these heroes not just of American history, but heroes of Christianity and our faith as well.

I wanted to let you know about some biographical sketches we have available on our website. One is called, “€œThe Courageous Leaders Collection“€ and this collection includes people like Abigail Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Francis Scott Key, George Washington Carver, Susanna Wesley, even the Wright brothers.

There’s a second collection called, “€œHeroes of History“€ in this collection you read about people like Benjamin Franklin, Christopher Columbus, Daniel Boone, George Washington, Harriet Tubman, the list goes on and on.

This is a great collection for your young person to have and read. And, it’s a providential view of American and Christian history. This is available at WallBuilders.com.

LAWS

MAN:

Laws: They are designed to protect our freedoms; but, not all laws are created equal. How do we know the good from the bad? Where does the concept of law originate?

What laws stand the test of time? Who should be writing our laws today? Join historian David Barton with special guests Glenn Beck, Congresswoman Michele Bachmann, and more, as they explore the America our Founding Fathers envisioned.

What if America’s story is bolder, more colorful, and more compelling than you ever imagined? This is Foundations of Freedom.

Welcome Michele Bachmann

DAVID:
Welcome to the Foundations of Freedom where we look at important aspects of our common heritage, about which most Americans today have been told absolutely nothing.

Joining me today is Congresswoman Michele Bachmann. Michele is a federal tax attorney and successful businesswoman. She’s a very successful mom, having raised five of her own kids and 23 foster kids.

She’s also a member of Congress where she serves on some of the most important committees, such as the House Intelligence Committee, which is in charge of our national secrets.

Michele, great to have you with us. Thanks for being here.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Great to be here today. And, I’m looking forward to unlocking some secrets here, as well, that a lot of Americans are unfamiliar with. This is so interesting because it’s an area that every American is impacted by today.

Really, people around the world are impacted by this.

DAVID:
It’s really practical.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

It’s very practical, because the law isn’t just some dry subject. This is a topic that was created in the mind of an Almighty God. And, it isn’t just one area but multiple areas.

We see in the Bible the ceremonial laws; but then, it’s also the moral law. And, all of us know a little bit about that. Then, it”€™s judicial law, which I have to deal with as a lawyer but also as a legislator, a member of Congress.

We also deal with the social compact. And, those are the laws between people horizontally to help our society work.

DAVID:

Yes.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

So, this is going to be great. I think people are going to learn a lot. I’m going to learn a lot; so, I’m really excited to hear what you have to say today.

DAVID:

Great. Let’s see what some questions are that we’ve got from the audience.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

OK very good.

Has Government Always Been This Way?

MAN 2:

It seems like we have laws regulating everything these days. How businesses are run, who they can hire, how clothes are made, what food we can buy, and even what happens in churches. Is this the way government has always been?

DAVID:

An easy answer to that: No. That’s the way secular government hasn’t always been.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

That”€™s true.

DAVID:

When you get to a God-conscious government and look at that, we have great guidance on this in the Scriptures.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

But, don’t we have a secular government? That’s what we”€™re told.

DAVID:

That’s all we hear.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Talk about that.

We Don”€™t Have a Secular Government

DAID:

Well, we really don’t have a secular government. And, the reason we don’t have a secular government, is because God”€™s the One Who ordained it. Now, we do have a separation between the institutions of Church and State; but, we never separate God out of anything.

And so, the notion that God is to be separate from government, He doesn’t buy that because He is the One who ordained government. Genesis 9 is the first government in the history of the world, and it came from God at His ordination. The Noahide Law–seven categories of civil laws.

God is into civil laws. The Bible has 613 civil laws in it. God’s really good on everything: immigration, taxation, military, family, business. You name it; He’s got it all.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

So, here you have God and God’s laws. And, here you have a civil government that you just talked about. How do you have a civil government and yet, God’s a little bit a little bit a part, of it a lot a part of it, no part of it?

DAVID:

Well, because God ordained it, He knows best how to run it. A great passages is in First Timothy 1: 8-10. And, this is where the Bible tells us the purpose of law.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Let’s look at that.

Laws Should Regulate the Bad Guys

DAVID:

It says: “€œWe know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for law breakers and rebels.”€ Now, that’s the second thing: government”€™s not supposed to pass laws to regulate the good guys.

It is supposed to pass laws to regulate the bad guys.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

But, that’s all we do is law, pass laws. I remember in Congress one day when we voted 53 times.

DAVID:

Wow.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

I think people would be shocked to hear that. How often–this plethora of laws. We stack laws upon laws.

But, that’s interesting when you say that the Scripture says that the law is not made for the righteous but for lawbreakers.

DAVID:

And, look at lawbreakers. It’s made for, as it says: “€œ”€¦for: law breakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, those who kill their fathers and mothers, murderers, the sexually immoral, those practicing homosexuality, slave traders, liars, perjurious, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine.”€

Now, those are the bad guys, the ones you’re supposed to be regulating.

The problem we have today is that–as you just mentioned 53 votes in one day–any given session of Congress, you guys have between 10,000 and 13,000 bills introduced every session. And, by the way, just as with the health care bill, you have 2500 pages in the bill; but, then you have {55,000 pages of} regulations.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

And, it’s a law that will never finish being written.

DAVID:

That’s right, because of regulations.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

It goes on and on and on.

DAVID:

That’s right.

People Crave Certainty

MICHELE BACHMANN:

That’s one of the beauties of law, is certainty. People need to know What’s the behavior expected of me? What do I need to do in response to my government?

And so, when law is malleable, when it can mean different things, then there’s no certainty. People don’t know what to do.

DAVID:

And, there’s no limit to government control at that point, because they can reshape it into anything. As Thomas Jefferson said, “€œIt becomes a thing of wax with which they can make anything they want,”€ and it gives more and more control.

Now, let me kind of back up here to say that we all know that ignorance of the law is no excuse. You’re from Minnesota; I”€™m from Texas.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Yes.

DAVID:

So, if I go to Minnesota, rent a car at the airport, start driving north  going 85 MPH, and get pulled over by highway patrol of Minnesota, he says, “€œYou can’t do that.”€

I say, “€œWait a minute; 85 MPH is the speed limit in Texas.”€

“€œWell, it”€™s not in Minnesota.”€

MICHELE BACHMANN:

That”€™s right.

DAVID:

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

That’s right.

DAVID:

So, that tells me I should know the law. Which, every single person in America needs to know federal law because you can be arrested for breaking federal law. It doesn”€™t matter if you know it or not.

It”€™s Impossible to Know All Federal Laws

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Well, that’s an impossibility because we’re all trying to lead our lives. And, I can tell you for a fact, I’ve been in the law libraries where there”€™s a federal law that is stack after stack, shelf after shelf, page after page. No one could read whole thing; it”€™s impossible.

DAVID:

If you made a commitment”€”let”€™s talk about that library and all those books of federal law with the federal regulations that come with it.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Right”€”but,that doesn’t include the regulations. Congress will pass a law; and then, we’ll tell the federal agencies, “€œWell now, you need to implement that law; so, you write all the additional requirements.”€

Well, that’s usually where the mess is, in all of the regulations. And, that’s considered law just as much as the law is.

Jailhouse Attorney & God”€™s Moral Law

DAVID:

You know, I’ve got a friend. She was a 95 year-old lady, Esther Armstrong, who loved prison ministry. I mean, she was everybody’s favorite grandma.

She was small and diminutive with white hair. Esther would go into the county, state, and federal prisons to mentor these guys and just talk bluntly to them. And, she was in one of these prisons one day when what we call a “€œjailhouse attorney,”€ somebody who has got such a long sentence they get their law degree while in jail to sue and get out.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

I’ve met them.

DAVID:

You have. Well, one of these jailhouse attorneys came up to her and put his arm around her, saying, “€œMomma Esther, did you know there’s 100,000 laws that put you in jail?”€ And, she looked at him and said, “€œ Did you know there’s 10 laws that’ll keep you out of jail?”€

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Yeah, baby. We know where that is. That”€™s right: the moral law.

DAVID:

The moral law.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

God’s moral law.

It”€™s So Simple in the Bible

DAVID:

And, that’s why it’s so simple in the Bible. You don’t have all these regulated behaviors, because if you deal with the inside, the outside is under control. But, when you have a secular government, they think that they’re God and at that point, they want to control every aspect of your life.

Only when you have a God-conscious government do you have limited government because you deal with the inside, not just the outside.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

You know, I had two great, godly law professors when I went to law school. And, they had pointed us to Blackstone, who was the great English jurist. And, Blackstone had written that all of common law is based upon the Ten Commandments of the Bible, God’s moral law.

DAVID:

That”€™s right.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

And, I know that different commentators have said that all of law can be reduced to the Ten Commandments. How important that is. So often years ago, in our churches or in synagogues, children learned the Ten Commandments.

They learned, understood, and memorized them. And, all throughout their lives, God would give further illumination to them of what those laws meant. Could you talk a little bit more about the importance and the primacy of moral law here in the United States– all over the world–but what it means here?

Four Types of Law

DAVID:

You know, it’s an interesting thing because when you look in the Bible, there are four types of law. There is a ceremonial law, which”€”

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Explain that, ceremonies. Is that like my wedding, my baptism? What is that?

DAVID:

That would be like the temple sacrifices and what happened there.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

So, Old Testament.

DAVID:

Old Testament that’s. And, it’s not necessarily a problem that it”€™s Old Testament; but, it’s been replaced by the sacrifice of Christ.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Yes.

DAVID:

The way we become righteous now is not but the sacrifices in the temple, buy by what Christ is. So, we say”€”

MICHELE BACHMANN:

That’s an important point, because under ceremonial law in the Old Testament, people would try to keep the ceremonial law, because they saw that that would give them personal righteousness.

DAVID:

That”€™s right.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

And, that would be their future salvation, if they followed the law. What a radical difference–

DAVID:

It is.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

–between the Old and New Testaments.

DAVID:

And, it didn’t work in the Old, and that”€™s why we have the New.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

It didn’t work and because we”€™re sinful.

DAVID:

That’s right. Now, you have a perfect Savior, a perfect sacrifice, Who completely fulfills the ceremonial law of the Old Testament. So, that’s kind of wrapped up with a bow now.

Avalon Project 

Tim:

Hey, guys, this is Tim Barton with WallBuilders. I know you hear my dad and Rick talk a lot about our Founding Fathers, about the original intent of our nation, a constitutional heritage that we have. And, really we’ve seen how far we slipped away from that.

And, I know a lot of us as we hear my dad and Rick talk think, “€œI wish there was a place that I could go where I could see these documents and I could read and learn about the Founding Fathers firsthand.  See the things they did.”€

I want to give you some websites today that can help you accomplish that very thing. If you get online you can go to places like Library of Congress and you can look under their century of lawmaking or historical documents. You can go to the Avalon Project, to the Founders Constitution, Google Books, or even the internet archives.

Or you can just go to WallBuilders.com. We have a section for our WallBuilders Library. And, under that section we have different subgroups for historical documents, historical writings, even a place where you can get helpful links to find out more information about other websites.  Where you can do research for yourself and find the truth for yourself. Friends, this is the time that we need to know who we are and where we came from. WallBuilders.com is a great place to go.

 The Moral Law

DAVID:

The next law is the moral law.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Which we just talked about.

DAVID:

This is where God tells us what’s right and what’s wrong. This is an important thing because I had a call recently from a state senator who said, “€œYou’ve got to help me. I”€™ve got a friend here that is a Christian guy, and he keeps talking about How can you be pro-life and be pro-death penalt?”€

How can you do that? Because the Bible says, “€œDon’t kill.”€ And, I said, “€œWell, he’s into the New Testament misunderstanding. The Bible actually says: “€˜Don’t murder.”€™

“€œIt doesn’t say: “€˜Don’t kill.”€™ You don’t shed innocent blood; you can shed blood. God ordained civil government to shed blood if it’s guilty blood, Romans 13.”€

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Well, you just got into a great point because it’s who is allowed to shed the blood.

DAVID:

That’s right.

Government is Allowed to “€œWield the Sword.”€

MICHELE BACHMANN:

There’s only one entity that God has created. And, that’s the civil government.

DAVID:
That’s right.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

It’s allowed to “€œwield the sword.”€

DAVID:

Yeah.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

So, if I do something terrible and murder someone else in a fit of rage, it’s not up to my brother to bring justice or someone else. There”€™s a very specific entity that God ordained: the civil government.

DAVID:

That”€™s right.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

They’re the only one that can do that.

Castle Doctrine

DAVID:

Civil justice belongs to the civil government. Now, the sword of self-defense we can wield.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Sure. If I’m on my house and someone breaks in, I have that right.

DAVID:

It”€™s my house, my family, my possessions.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Again, our law tells us we can do that, too.

DAVID:

That’s right, yes. And, Blackstone, as you mentioned, that’s called the “€œCastle Doctrine.”€ Your house is your castle: all your possessions, all those who live there. You’ve got the right to defend your castle.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

That”€™s right.

DAVID:

So, that’s moral law. And, I asked the senator, “€œDo you believe that arson is a sin?”€

“€œOh yeah.”€

“€œDo you believe that infanticide, killing a born child, is a sin?”€

“€œOh yeah.”€

“€œ Do you believe that bestiality, sex with animals, is a sin?”€

“€œYeah.”€

“€œShow me anywhere in the New Testament it’s a sin. All that–you can’t even show in the New Testament that abortion is a sin. That’s a sin in the Old Testament.”€

MICHELE BACHMANN:

You just don’t talk about it. It’s just not brought up.

DAVID:

And it doesn’t need to be, because once God said it”€”

MICHELE BACHMANN:

It”€™s settled.

DAVID:

If it”€™s wrong, it stays wrong.

It”€™s Written On Our Hearts

MICHELE BACHMANN:

That’s right. That’s a very important part of the law: settled doctrine.

DAVID:

That’s right.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

And, it’s done because the Ten Commandments are the Ten Commandments, are the Ten”€”

DAVID:

The Old Testament and the New Testament, this is God”€™s moral law.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

And, not just for the Hebrews.

DAVID:

That’s right.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

And, not just for Gentiles.

DAVID:

It”€™s behavior”€”

MICHELE BACHMANN:

–for all people, for all time. In fact, the New Testament talks about how God put the Ten Commandments in our hearts. He put them within.

DAVID:

Yes.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

So, that’s why we have a conscience. We wonder why we feel guilty. Or, when a little child does something wrong, they know; it’s all over our faces.

It’s because He puts it in our heart.

DAVID:

That’s right.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Unless our conscience is seared unless we continually turn away from what our consciousness tells us is wrong.

DAVID:

But, you’ve got to say, “€œThis is the Ten Commandments: You don’t murder, commit adultery, steal, purge–but, there’s no penalties attached to this.”€

MICHELE BACHMANN:

That’s telling us what to do and what not to do. But, it doesn’t say what’s the penalty if you violate.

Judicial Law

DAVID:

That’s right. And, that’s the third type of law, which is judicial law. Judicial law comes in.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

So, ceremonial law, moral law, judicial law. Moral Law tells us what’s right and wrong.

Judicial law tells us the penalties. If you murder someone, maybe it’s 40 years, life in prison, or the electric chair.

DAVID:

And, then you said “€œmaybe,”€ and that’s a key point because judicial law changes over time. Moral law never changes. Back in the beginning, with adultery, you got killed in the Hebrew tradition.

Jesus comes along and says, “€œThat’s a sin; don’t do it anymore.”€ But, he didn’t stone the lady. Today it’s just approbation; but, it’s still a moral wrong.

You know, here we are in Texas, and in Texas, we used to hang horse thieves. We don’t anymore; it’s still a crime to steal horse, but you don’t get hung for. So, judicial law can change over time.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Moral law doesn’t; it never changes ever, ever, ever. Judicial law does change because it may be different in England, Australia, the US, or Ukraine.

The Laws of Nature and Nature’s God

DAVID:

But, it has still got a right and wrong attached to it. And, you can never get  away from the right and wrong. And, those are what the Declaration of Independence called “€œThe Laws of Nature and Nature’s God.”€

They”€™re rights and wrongs that became part of the Seventh Amendment the Constitution, the common law that establishes what’s right and wrong. We live in a culture now where we’re trying to redefine what we think is right and wrong. And, we’re redefining the moral law on a regular basis; you can’t do that.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

In other words, we”€™re turning it upside down.

DAVID:

We”€™re turning it upside down.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

And, that’s when you’ve got trouble.

DAVID:
Instead of God telling you what’s right and wrong, we’re now having the government”€”and, that’s the problem we get into. Instead of government being limited and going after law breakers, like the Bible says, we’re going after the good guys.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Preach it. That’s right.

DAVID:

And that’s the problem.

Social Compact Law

MICHELE BACHMANN:

That’s the beauty of our government; it was limited. The jurisdiction–we need to talk about that a little bit; but, I know that there’s another fourth area of law that we really should touch on. And, that’s social compact.

DAVID:

And, you talk about social compact law: all the things that fall under the moral law. And social compact law is where the will of the majority wins.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

These are the biggies that are immutable; that you cannot disagree on. You shouldn’t be murdering.

DAVID:

And, there are more in the Bible. You know, we talked about bestiality and arson. Rape is a crime in the Bible. It is not in the Ten Commandments but is a moral crime.

God lays all that–the laws of consanguinity: who you can marry, who can’t marry you can’t marry. You can”€™t marry first cousins or your sister. So, all of that is part of the moral law, which is all laid out.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Yes.

DAVID:

But, then you get into things that say: “€œDo we want the sidewalks to be four, five, or six feet wide?

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Yes, and speed limits.

DAVID:

Yes.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

What are the load limits on turnip trucks?

DAVID:

That’s right.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

You know, all this kind of regulation. And, it really has to do with the whole idea of we can kind of do whatever we want, other than, I can’t take my fist and plant it on your nose.

DAVID:

That”€™s right.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

So, anything short of that, you should be able to have freedom. In other words, when my behavior hurts you, then that’s when you have to have a social compact law.

That’s right.

DAVID:

That’s right.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

You got to do something.

DAVID:

It”€™s to give you an orderly society. You can have social compact laws if you’re not voting on the moral law. You don’t get to vote on whether murder is a crime or not.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

No because it’s done.

DAVID:

God”€™s already said it.

MICHELE BACHMANN:

Because there can never be a dispensation to do what’s wrong. That’s why I think we continue to see in the United States today, the ongoing debate about the issue over abortion.

Foundations Of Freedom Part Two- The Foundations Of Law

RICK:

We’re out of time for today, folks, you’ve been listening to Foundations of Freedom with David Barton. Today’s episode was with Michele Bachmann, and we haven’t quite finished it. We”€™ve got a few minutes left that we”€™ll finish up tomorrow.

So, you”€™ll get the conclusion of that first episode on the foundations of law with Michele Bachmann. Then, we”€™ll roll right into the part 2, the second episode, and get most of that knocked out tomorrow. So, don’t miss tomorrow when we”€™ll share a lot of great information for you from Foundations of Freedom with David Barton.

You’ve been listening to it on WallBuilders Live!