Foundations Of Freedom Part Five- The Bible And Civil Justice: Foundations of Freedom is our latest television program. We are so excited to get share it with you here on WallBuilders Live! In this series, will be discussing The Founders Bible, what kind of influence the Bible had on America, and we also discuss the foundations of law! Tune in now for the last part of this five-part series!

Air Date: 08/30/2019

Guest: Dr. Carol Swain

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture 

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we’re talking about today’s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture, always doing that from a Biblical, historical, and Constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker and President of WallBuilders, and my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator, national speaker, and author. You can get more information from our website, WallBuilders.com, where we have all kinds of great DVDs, and books, and resources there. And one of those is a television series called Foundations of Freedom. 

It’s a recent series, just airing nationally. It includes Glenn Beck, Michele Bachmann, all kinds of other great guests and a in a wide array of topics involving the culture today and how faith has influenced that. 

This week on WallBuilders Live we’re sharing four of those programs with you. We started early this week with the Founders’ Bible, and yesterday we drove into the Foundations of Law with Michele Bachmann. We got most of that first episode on Foundations of Law with Michele yesterday, and we’re going to get to a conclusion right now. 

So let’s pick up right where we left off yesterday with Foundations of Freedom. Here’s David Barton and Michele Bachmann.

Michele:

We’re talking about something that is fundamental. We’re talking about the intentional taking of a human life, and you can’t put into law something that God has already called unnatural evil. 

David:

That’s right.

Michele:

Because moral laws immutable. 

David:

The difficulty we have is people faith, as we know right now in polling, only one out of three Christians believe there’s absolute moral truth. And that’s a problem. 

The Infallible Word of God

David:

That’s a problem, because the Bible is full of absolute moral truth. I guarantee when you stand before God, He has absolute moral truth. 

Michele:

That tells you what believers think about the in infalible, true Word of God. They don’t know what’s true or isn’t it true. Remember in the Old Testament after the scripture been hidden for so long, and it was brought out, and it was read before the people? The people wept with joy because there’s freedom in law.

When we think of the law.

We think of something scary, and how we don’t want to see the police officer pull us over—I mean, who would? You know you’re going to get a ticket—But the law is for freedom. It’s to free us, to free us to do what is right and it’s for our benefit, and for the benefit of our fellow man.

David:

That’s what the Bible calls itself: the Law of Liberty. If you will live by the law, you’ve got freedom. That’s why Esther Armstrong says, “Hey, there’s 10 laws to keep you out of jail. This will keep us alright. One hundred thousand laws will put you in jail.” 

That’s not freedom. These laws of God will keep you safe. That’s freedom.

Michele:

The New Testament says, “Now the Lord is that spirit, and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.”

David:

That’s liberty, and that’s why I’m going back to, “The moral law is not restricted, it gives lots of freedoms,” it gives lots because, if you live by the moral law, you have control of yourself, and you don’t need external controls from the outside. 

Bible or Bayonet

There’s there’s a great quote from Robert Winthrop that I love, and he says, “Man will be controlled, be it by power within them, or power without them. Be it by the Bible, or by the bayonet.” 

If you’ll do what the Bible says, you don’t need the bayonet. You don’t need somebody trying to control you outside.

And the other thing that we really get goofed up is jurisdictions. What Jesus said in Matthew 22:21, He says, “Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” There is a jurisdiction where Caesar has control, there’s a jurisdiction where God has control. The problem we’ve always had the secular governments think they’re God and they don’t recognize jurisdiction.

Mischele:

Isn’t that so true today!

David:

A great example is the issue of marriage, because God created marriage, not government. In Matthew 19, the Disciples were asking about marriage, and Jesus said, “Guys, don’t you remember? At the beginning, He said man and woman, God has joined together.”

So Jesus took them back to the original, and that the deal is that was God’s jurisdiction.

That was before civil government ever existed. Civil government came in Genesis 9, and marriage came in Genesis 1. 

Michele:

If you look at sociology and human interaction, its first man and woman. Then from Man Woman descends children, and then extended family. You don’t need civil governments until you have a society, until you’ve got so many families, and then at that point that’s what God did with Noah.

“We’ve got a world full of people now let’s establish how we do horizontal stuff.”

That’s what’s so brilliant about our form of governance and God’s form of government, that we are equal before the law. We recognize individuals.

Where Secular Government Gets it Wrong

Because God says he’s not a respecter of persons. He’s not partial. 

So why should we be? Why should government be partial, or respecter of persons? It shouldn’t. 

That’s what I love about the Declaration of Independence, is because a creator God created us equal. 

That is as revolutionary. Even today across the world with world governments, it is still a revolutionary idea and except. It shows the worth of you. It shows that when God made you, when God made me, when God made the viewers, we are so valuable to Him! He lifted each one of us up before Him, but yet equal. This is where secular governments get it wrong.

David:

When we had the American Revolution and the French Revolution, in the American Revolution, we said all men are created equal, they’re endowed by their creator. In the French Revolution, their motto was liberty, equality, and fraternity. So they were into groups, and whatever fraternity—whatever group people. 

Michele:

That’s what we do today. 

David:

We have hate crimes.

Michele:

That’s where we are. We do not protect these guys.

David:

I remember one of your cohorts in Congress, when they voted on the hate crime law to protect lesbians and homosexuals, one of your guys in Congress said, “Well, let’s also protect seniors and veterans.” 

They said, “No, no, no! Those aren’t the groups we’re trying to protect!” 

Michele:

I remember that! That’s right.

David:

So, “No, no, we’re protecting this group, we’re not protecting that group.” 

Well, see, under the American system, when you recognize God as the creator, then every individual has the rights for equal protection. You can’t recognize specific groups.

Michele:

Why that distinction is so important between the United States system and the French system is this: It’s tyranny. 

Marriage is Not the Government’s Jurisdiction

Because it puts government in charge. Because it’s political correctness that rules today. So when you’re part of a favored group, then you get special benefits that nobody else gets. That’s the very form of tyranny. 

When government supposedly gives something—which the government has nothing to give. They do have to take it away from other people. So when they give it to that certain group, that means by definition they’re taking it away from you. 

That’s why we had some Supreme Court cases recently that dealt with this issue. 

“You can’t take away my right of religious conscience.”

Because the First Amendment has protected our God given right that didn’t come from government. 

David:

This is where the marriage issue is so important on jurisdictions. 

In 1913 the question before the court was, “Hey, you religious people have your religious marriages, we secular people let us have a secular marriage. Let us define it.” 

Michele:

Sounds like France. 

David:

It sounds like America. 

“You know, we want a definition of government that includes us. You religious guys haven’t included us and homosexual marriage.” 

And so the issue before the court was, “Can you have a religious marriage and a civil marriage?” 

In other words, “Can government create and regulate marriage?” 

And here’s what the court says: 

The Supreme Court in 1913, in a case called Grimsby versus Reeves, the Supreme Court of Texas said, “Marriage was not originated by human law. When God created Eve, she was a wife to Adam, and they then and there occupied the status of a husband and wife. The truth is civil government has grown out of marriage, which created homes and population society from which government became necessary. 

Three Dogs, a Horse, and Two Men

It would be sacrilegious to apply the designation, quote, “‘A civil contract,”’ to such a marriage. It is that and more a status ordained by God.”

So you’ve got government saying, “We can’t touch marriage. God defines that’s not our jurisdiction. We have to stay in our truck man. It lowers the value of it.” 

Michele:

Honestly, when you put government in, it lowers it. 

David:

Oh, it can become anything then. Three dogs, and a horse, and two men. It can be anything.

Michele:

We’re going to get into more of that later. But we’ve got some really important things that we have to remember to do. We’ve talked about really important topics. One thing, I think, especially for every parent, but for every individual, is to make sure that each one of us learn the Ten Commandments. 

Not just read them, memorize them. 

I know in our house, we have them hanging on the wall. We bought the biggest copy we could get so that it would be before our face every day, so that before the kids left the house, we saw it.

David:

We’re talking about how only one out of every three Christians believe in absolute truth. Some years ago they had the Promise Keepers rally in Washington D.C., and I was there, and it was interesting. The public numbers were about one to one point two million. I talked to the park police, they said they counted three point two million. So let’s say there were 2 million men there. 

A camera crew went around and asked 500 men, “Can you name the Ten Commandments?” 

One in Five Hundred

Only one out of five hundred men could name the Ten Commandments.

And this is at Promise Keepers, committed Christian men, only one out of five hundred. So what you’re saying about memorizing the Ten Commandments, that is important. 

Michele:

When I was thinking about what we were going to talk about, I sat down and made myself write them out. It’s easier for me to write it out than say them. 

Just that exercise of going through it, and I have it in my kitchen. I have it in my house so the kids could see it everyday, and I just want to encourage people to do that. Especially for your children. 

You’ll be amazed by what they take away. 

The second thing is another scripture, and that’s to know the purpose of law. We’re Talking about that on this show, and that’s where 1 Timothy 1:8-10 memorize it. Because really, what is the purpose of government? What is the purpose of law? 

David:

To regulate the bad guys, not the good guys. 

Michele:

That’s right. 

And the purpose of government is to punish evil doers and reward those who do well.

David:

That’s the part that doesn’t get done. We don’t reward the righteous, we punish the bad guys, but we also punish the good guys. 

Michele:

Our government has been busy doing just the reverse any of. Why do we have a problem, huh? 

So the other one is to learn to distinguish the four types of law. There is Ceremonial Law, which has been completed. That’s the Old Testament temple worship. Jesus fulfilled that law. 

The Moral Law, of which we just talked about. Hang a copy up in your kitchen, have one at work, have one on your wall.

Moral Rights and Wrongs

David:

And read the Bible looking for rights and wrongs.

I mean, gossip is also a moral wrong under God. Tell bearing, always tell the truth.

All of that, read the Bible looking for rights and wrongs.

People say, “Well, that doesn’t apply today.” 

Yes, it does.

Michele:

It’s amazing how everything that you’re trying to tell your kids, it’s all contained right then. 

The next one is judicial law, and really all that is the punishments for violating moral law. 

David:

That can change as long as you don’t change the moral law. You can change the punishment, but don’t say, “Homosexuality is no longer a violation of moral law.” 

It is to God. 

Michele:

That’s right. But that’s not social compact laws. Speed limit, load limits on trucks, etc.. 

So those are the things that we do have variation, and we can or can’t do, and that’s why it’s so important.  

Another topic that we need to discuss and stretch out another time is the issue of jurisdiction. And separating the powers of government. 

So it’s important to know the basics. You’ve got ceremonial law, moral law, judicial law, and social compact law. Understand what they are and what they aren’t, understand and memorize what the basis of law is, what moral law is, and we’ll all be better off. 

David:

That will defend our foundations of freedom, and that’s what we want to do is preserve this foundation.

Michele:

This is a great start today.

Biographical Sketches 

Hi friends! This is Tim Barton of WallBuilders.This is a time when most Americans don’t know much about American history or even heroes of the faith. I know, oftentimes as parents, we’re trying to find good content for our kids to read.

If you remember back in the Bible, the Book of Hebrews it has the Faith Hall of Fame, where they outlined the leaders of faith that had gone before them. Well, this is something that as Americans we really want to go back and outline some of these heroes not just of American history, but heroes of Christianity and our faith as well. 

I wanted to let you know about some biographical sketches we have available on our website. One is called, “The Courageous Leaders Collection” and this collection includes people like Abigail Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Francis Scott Key, George Washington Carver, Susanna Wesley, even the Wright brothers. 

There’s a second collection called, “Heroes of History” in this collection you read about people like Benjamin Franklin, Christopher Columbus, Daniel Boone, George Washington, Harriet Tubman, the list goes on and on. 

This is a great collection for your young person to have and read. And, it’s a providential view of American and Christian history. This is available at WallBuilders.com.

Why So Many Laws?

David:

Joining me today is Congresswoman Michele Bachmann. Michele is a federal tax attorney. She is a successful businesswoman, she’s a very successful mom, having raised five of her own kids and 23 foster kids, she’s also a member of Congress and in Congress she serves on some of the most important committees, such as the House Intelligence Committee, which is in charge of our national secrets. 

Michele, great to have you with us. Thanks for being here.

Michele:

Great to be here today. I’m looking forward to unlocking some secrets here a lot of Americans aren’t familiar with, and that’s really dealing with important issues and a scary word called jurisdiction, but it’s actually such a blessing, and not only for Americans. 

That issue—we’ll unpack during the course of this conversation—but people will learn how this gives us freedom and how this gives us the ability to be able to take what our talents are, and be creative, and build up the society, and how where you have violations of jurisdiction in other countries, people aren’t quite so free, and now we see even see that impact here in the United States. I can’t wait to hear what you have to say about it. So I’m looking forward to this. As a matter of fact, do you mind if we start with the first question?

Question:

There seem to be so many laws addressing moral, and religious issues, where you can’t and can’t pray how you can pray, the marriage issue, all those things. What’s up with all these laws?

What is Jurisdiction?

David:

Very simple, the answer is: jurisdictions. Let’s define it, jurisdictions. Probably the best way to define it is—let me let me give a couple examples—I’m from Texas. You’re from Minnesota. I’ve got a pickup. You probably don’t. Mine is red, yours probably isn’t.

I decide I really like red. 

So I go over to your house and spray paint your car red. I can’t do that. That’s not my jurisdiction. That car belongs to you, it doesn’t belong to me. I can spray paint anything that belongs to me, but I can’t spray paint stuff that belongs to you.

Michele:

So jurisdiction it’s an area. 

David:

It’s a fence. It’s your neighborhood, and it says, “I have authority right here. This is my stuff. I’m in control.” 

Michele:

I don’t have authority here. 

David:

That’s right. Neighborhood with all those fences, right there. 

Michele:

But it’s not geography.

David:

Oh no. It’s more than geography. It’s responsibilities.

Michele:

What’s your jurisdiction? Give an example of your jurisdiction in your own life. 

David:

I have jurisdiction over what I learn. I’m responsible for what I learn. I’m responsible for what I say, I have jurisdiction over my words. I have jurisdiction over my behavior. I’m accountable to God for my behavior. I’m accountable to civil laws for my behavior. Those are all things that I can control. No one else can control that. 

I can’t control your behavior. 

I can punish you if you do something wrong, because that’s the jurisdiction of government, but I can’t control your behavior.

Everyone has Jurisdictions

Michele:

Here’s another example: One night I was watching a show—and they have 19 children in this homeschooling family—and one of the little boys said that he had to go. He had an area of jurisdiction, he was a 5 year old and he had to go—I think take the laundry out of the washing machine put it in the dryer. 

He understood that this was his area of authority, he had something to do. So it isn’t just a government official, it isn’t just an adult, each one of us has an area of authority, an area of responsibility. 

If you’re a husband, if you’re a wife, if you’re a child, if your employee or employer, if you’re a neighbor, if you’re a government official, you have jurisdictions. 

So where it impacts all of us, this issue of jurisdiction? Because the government is supposed to be limited to under our form of government. 

So the president only has so much authority. No further. Because the Constitution tells the president under Article 2, “You get to do this, be the executive, you get to enforce our laws. But Mr. President, you can’t make the law.” 

David:

That’s right. That’s Congress. Judges can’t make the laws either. 

Michele:

Because they get to interpret the law, and that’s when we get messed up a little bit. 

David:

See, what becomes an important thing here is who’s in charge, who can tell me what my jurisdiction is?

And that’s a question that has to be answered. It was answered originally, for three hundred and eighty years in America, was God defined jurisdictions first, and then within jurisdictions people get to find those jurisdictions. 

When State Takes Over the Church

For example, you have Matthew 20-21, where Jesus said, “Look, you render to Caesar is Caesar’s, and you rendered to God what is God’s. You’ve got you a line here that separates them. 

That’s where we had institutional separation of church and state. We never separate God out of anything, but we don’t let the government say, “I’m a secular.” 

Government’s not secular, but the government doesn’t run the church, and the church doesn’t run the government. 

Until we got into about 371 A.D. and Emperor Theodosis. 

Michele:

Where was he? 

David:

He was considered world emperor at the time. He was taking over the world. 

Michele:

And why don’t we hear about him? 

David:

We don’t, and we should, but we do such a lousy job on history that a lot of people don’t hear about. 

 Theodosis is the first guy to say, “Oh, wait a minute, I’m a Christian. I decree Christianity the only religion you can follow. If you’re not a Christian, you’re gonna get killed.” 

Michele:

He was the government ruler who mandated what everyone’s religion. 

David:

They didn’t follow. It didn’t work out really well.

It led to twelve hundred years of what we now call the Dark Ages. And the government officials put the Bible out of reach of the common person, and as a matter of fact, when people just tried to make it in English so we could read it ourselves, they get themselves killed by civil officials. 

Michele:

This is the right time, I think, to interject. What most of the viewers have heard, which is Thomas Jefferson, separation of church and state, and so most viewers think that what Jefferson was saying is that governments should have absolutely nothing to do with religion. 

Government Should Not be Secular

David:

Dead wrong. 

Michele:

And what we learn is that not only should government not everything to do with religion, but we shouldn’t even be allowed to speak about religious things in the public square. 

But he was writing a letter to the Danbury Baptists, wasn’t he? And in that letter, he was saying just the opposite. Right?

David:

What you have is, coming into Jefferson’s timeframe, America was founded fighting for separation of church and state because you had Henry the Eighth who said, “I’m going to set up my own church. I’ll do what I want to do.” 

Michele:

Another civil government official mandating religion.

David:

It was a state taking over the church and saying, “Here’s what your doctrines are.” 

Michele:

The state taking over a church. That is the important point.

Constitution Alive!

Have you ever wanted to learn more about the United States Constitution but just felt like, man, the classes are boring or it’s just that old language from 200 years ago or I don’t know where to start? People want to know. But, it gets frustrating because you don’t know where to look for truth about the Constitution either. 

Well, we’ve got a special program for you available now called Constitution Alive! with David Barton and Rick Green. It’s actually a teaching done on the Constitution at Independence Hall in the very room where the Constitution was framed. We take you both to Philadelphia, the Cradle of Liberty and Independence Hall and to the WallBuilders’ library where David Barton brings the history to life to teach the original intent of our Founding Fathers. 

We call it the QuickStart guide to the Constitution because in just a few hours through these videos you will learn the Citizen’s Guide to America’s Constitution.  You’ll learn what you need to do to help save our Constitutional Republic. It’s fun! It’s entertaining! And, it’s going to inspire you to do your part to preserve freedom for future generations. It’s called Constitution Alive with David Barton and Rick Green. You can find out more information on our website now at WallBuilders.com.

The Story of Separation of Church and State

David:

When the state takes it over, you do not get freedom of conscience. You do not get freedom. 

Michele:

You lose your liberty! 

David:

That’s what was so big in the United States, we changed them. 

For example, the French said, “You will be Catholic.” 

Well, four hundred thousand people left the country for not being Catholics. They came to America. They founded largely in New York and South Carolina, but they came here seeking religious freedom. So you have protestants came out of France. You have Jews that came out of Portugal because they were told, “You gotta be a Christian.” 

Well, they come to America.

Michele:

People don’t recognize it that no there is a large Jewish population, again, seeking freedom to worship. 

David:

So they go, “The states not supposed to tell us what our doctrines are.”

That’s a church response. It’s not a state response. That’s a jurisdiction of the church, not of the state, but the state has taken over the jurisdiction of the church. So you get all these people coming to America to say, “We want a separation of church and state! We don’t want the state telling us what our doctrines are going to be!”

Michele:

This is enormous, and I think people need to recognize what a huge dividing line this was, yet one more reason why the United States was truly a shining city on a hill. It was because the whole thinking in the world at that time was civil government overstepping their jurisdiction. 

Because if you read the Bible, the Bible tells us what civil government can do.

It doesn’t say that civil government can tell you or tell me what our religion is going to be. 

The Bible and Civil Justice Part 2

David:

It tells you exactly the opposite, actually, because you had King Uzziah in Second Chronicles 26 who steps into the temple and says, “I’ve decided I’m going to become a priest. I’m going to offer sacrifices in the Temple.” 

And the Priests said, “Whoa! You’re the civil leader, we’re the religious leaders.” 

He said, “Don’t ever tell a king what a king can and can not do.” 

And he tried to offer a sacrifice, and God struck him down at the altar because he overstepped the jurisdiction. That’s how it is to government that won’t recognize jurisdiction. 

The church wasn’t taking over the government, the government was taking over the church. It’s the one that encroaches most often. That’s what Jefferson saw.

You have this background, these guys come to America, when they get here they separate church and state. The Pilgrims separated church and state.

Rick:

We’re out of time for today, folks. You’ve been listening to David Barton and Congresswoman Michele Bachmann, talking about the Foundations of Law. That’s a two part program in the Foundations of Freedom television series. All of that is available right now at WallBuildersLive.com. You can check out that link there for more information. We’re going to get to a conclusion tomorrow of the conversation with Michele Bachmann.

So, don’t miss tomorrow. A lot more great information there. Check out the Website today. Thanks so much for listening to WallBuilders Live.