Top Five Presidents, Foundations Of Freedom Thursday

Top Five Presidents, Foundations Of Freedom Thursday:Â It is Foundations of Freedom Thursday, a special day of the week where we get to answer questions from you, the listeners! Always answering your questions from constitutional principles! Tune in today as we answer your questions such as what are our top 5 favorite presidents? How would we rate the success of FDR? What can we do about the Johnson Amendment? And so much more, right here on WallBuilders Live!

Air Date:Â 05/10/2018

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton

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Transcription note: Â As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture

Intro:

President Thomas Jefferson said, “I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society, but the people themselves. And if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.”

Rick:

You”ve found your way to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live where we talk about today’s hottest topics on policy and faith in the culture. Of course, we always approach those topics from a particular perspective, a worldview, if you will. We always look at it from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

And today we’re really going to dive into those foundational principles that give us that perspective. We call it Foundations of Freedom Thursday. We try to do it every week on Thursday and we actually let you drive the conversation. So, you pick the topics, and you ask the questions, and then we go into that foundational perspective on those particular issues. So, if you’d like to ask a question that we answer on a Foundations of Freedom Thursday you send that into [email protected], Â [email protected]. And we’ll try to get to it on a Thursday.

We’re here with David Barton America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Also Tim Barton”s with us, national speaker and pastor and he’s the president of WallBuilders. My name is Rick Green I’m a former Texas state legislator.

You can find out more about all three of us at WallBuildersLive.com, the radio site. And also get a listing of all of our stations across the country. Then we always encourage you to visit WallBuilders.com because there’s a lot of great tools there for you that will equip and inspire you. It will also allow you to equip others. So, you can be kind of like a Paul Revere of today spreading the good news, warning your neighbors they need to get involved and be good citizens. Get that information in their hands. It’s great way to share on Facebook and Twitter. Take these programs that you listen to and do the same thing.

Rick:

Then lastly you can also go to that website WallBuilders.com and come alongside us financially and help us to spread this radio program all over the country. And, frankly, around the world. We have a lot of folks around the nation, around the planet, that actually listen to WallBuilders Live. A lot of our military veterans listen all around the country. They love learning about what it is they’re actually defending, what they’re fighting for on the frontlines. So you can join us in that by going to WallBuilders.com, making a contribution to the radio program today.

Ranking Our Top 5 Presidents

Rick:

Alright, we’ve got a lot of great questions to get to today that you guys have been sending in. We’ll see how many of those we can get to. David, Tim, you guys ready?

David:

You bet, Rick. Let’s go for it.

Rick:

Alright, first ones coming from Joe. This question is, “David, Â I would like to know an assessment of FDR as President, Franklin Delano Roosevelt. I would give him an A on handling of the war effort from 1941 to 1945 although weak in dealing with Stalin. I would give him an F on social policies and the explosive growth of the size and scope of the federal government. Where do you put him? If you have time, who would you rank our top five presidents?”

Great question, Joe. Appreciate you sending that in. David, Tim, what do you think? So, FDR, this is, used to when we would say FDR we just assumed everybody knew who we were talking about, so why mention Franklin Delano Roosevelt. So, here’s the longest serving president. Frankly, the reason we have the 22nd Amendment to the Constitution. Probably some good and bad here, right? We typically think of him as having been a great leader during the war and that’s what Joe says. Let’s take that first – do you agree with that assessment?

Tim:

Yeah. I’m glad we’re starting there, Rick. I think it’s interesting that Joe points it out because once we got involved in the war I would generally agree with the assessment and say, yeah, he did a pretty good job. Our military got to go, and their leaders got to lead, and there wasn’t micromanaging and overall, yeah, it was pretty good. However, FDR did not want to get in the war.

I was in a museum not too long ago, maybe the last year or two, and one of the tour guides for the museum was making that point that FDR was a great leader in World War II, hero of the Jews, saved so many Jews, and really he should get a lot of credit for that. And actually, the curator for the museum came out and said, “Wait a second. No, no, no, that’s not right.” The curator took over part of the tour and pointed out that the holocaust had already been going on before America got involved. FDR had already gotten reports of what was going on before we got involved.

A Little More Credit Than He Deserves?

Tim:

In fact, we were already turning ships away of people that were fleeing the Holocaust, they came to America and FDR turned those ships away. He said, “No, no, no, you can’t stay here because we’re not getting involved and sorry we can’t help you. You’re going to have to go back and deal with it in Europe and just good luck to you.” It wasn’t until Pearl Harbor happened that FDR had his wake up call and goes, “Wait a second. This is impacting us now. We better do something.” Once he was awakened to “we better do something” then you can look and go, “Yeah, I think he”– from my assessment, I would go, yeah, from that point I think he did a pretty good job. But he gets a little more credit probably than he deserves when you look at his position before Pearl Harbor.

Rick:

And in fact, I was surprised – I don’t know if you guys saw Darkest Hour about Churchill but the one scene in that is a phone call from Churchill to FDR. Basically at the time of Dunkirk asking for help and essentially being told “no”. Â He finally offered a roundabout way that would really be very, very, very, difficult to actually help. And it was just the first time I had seen it, especially from a Hollywood movie portrayal, of FDR anything other than the gung ho leader that saved the day especially in those early days. So, that was pretty interesting too.

David:

Yeah. And what Tim was talking about earlier too, ships like the USS St. Louis that came to America from Europe loaded with German Jews and European Jews. The Germans were right on their necks. And they tried to get them asylum here in the United States, the United States turned down them down. Went to several of the nations, they all turned them down and they all went back to Europe. And that’s what America told them to do, “Go back to Europe. We”re not taking you.” And roughly half of them were killed in concentration camps of those who’d been on USS St. Louis.

We have in our collection several newspapers from the New York Times talking about the fact that Jewish leaders have been to visit Roosevelt and showing him the atrocities that are occurring in these concentration camps. And they weren’t just concentration camps, there were also death camps. There’s a difference between the two types of camps, extermination camps.

A Lot of Records

David:

So, there’s a lot of records that even we possess that show that he wasn’t gonna do anything. And it’s understandable not to want to get involved in somebody else’s war. Â Quite frankly, America wasn’t at war and I can understand him saying, “Hey, we’re not going to go to war.” But once Japan slapped us and made us become personally involved there’s no question he went all out. When he did, what he did in the way of resources, what he did in the way of turning the American ingenuity into turning out warships–

Rick:

And rallying the country, right?

David:

Rallying the country.

Rick:

He was a lot like Churchill was in terms of being great at really motivating the American people, as Churchill was motivating the English people.

David:

His rhetoric was unparalleled. He kept saying, “This is a conflict between Christianity and anti Christianity.” He was not at all bashful about saying this is a spiritual conflict and he didn’t want to get us in. But once we got there he did a pretty good job of administering it.

Tim:

I would also say that Joe’s assessment is right when you look at the social policies and positions. Certainly he gets an F from our estimation and our philosophy of government from the Constitution. Yeah, he did so much overexpansion, so much that was not in the Constitution, so many regulations, so much that he did certainly with social positions that we would give him an F. Interesting though he certainly was one of the more religious presidents at least on the record.

“Now We”re Getting Involved”

Tim:

Which is also interesting to see that he was very open about faith, very much growth and expansive government. And once we got in the war he did a really good job, but he did not do a good job of being a friend of the Jews before the war. It really was only after, as you mentioned, kind of Japan slapped us. Well, yeah, after Pearl Harbor happened he said, “Now, we’re getting involved and now we’re going to be the most powerful nation in the world.” Which, we kind of were it just took them awhile to get there.

David:

And I’m not sure that I would say he was a good friend of the Jews. He wouldn’t help early on, but even in the last part of his presidency he still said, “I will not support a separate nation for Israel. I’m not going to do that.”

Tim:

Well, and that’s a great point because quickly after he was removed, Harry Truman comes on board. And under Harry Truman the U.S. becomes the first nation to recognize Israel and their ability to be their own nation. So, that is a great point even in that regard, FDR did not do a great job. But at least his war efforts could be recognized as being a defender of the Jews. Although, certainly not on the same level as Harry Truman or many other presidents.

Rick:

Hey, guys, quick break. When we come back we’ll get to the last part of Joe’s question. Stay with us. folks. It’s Foundations of Freedom Thursday right here on WallBuilders Live.

Outro:

Abraham Lincoln said, “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts. Not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Moment From American History

This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history.

The Reverend James Caldwell was a famous minister during the American War for Independence. His sermons taught liberty and God’s opposition to tyranny.

The British hated him and tried to kill him. So for his own protection he would actually take loaded pistols with him into the pulpit and lay them beside his Bible as he preached. In the 1780 Battle of Springfield, the Americans ran out of wadding for their guns which was like having no ammunition.

Pastor Caldwell ran inside a nearby church and returned with an armload of Watt Hymnals, the pages of which would provide the much needed wadding. He took this great Bible based hymnal, raised in the air, and shouted to the troops,”Now put to watts into them, boys!” Â This pastor’s ingenuity saved the day for the Americans.

For more information or Pastor James Caldwell and other Colonial Patriots go to WallBuilders.com

Intro:

Thomas Jefferson said, “The constitutions of most of our states, and of the United States, assert that all power is inherent in the people that they may exercise it by themselves that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. That they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press.”

Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live Foundations of Freedom Thursday today. We’re taking your questions and we have one from Joe where we’ve been assessing the FDR presidency. And before we get to the second half his question, very quick note from Susan. She says, “You all are a highlight in my day. As a lover of the God whose wisdom fills the Constitution, I especially appreciate Foundations of Freedom Thursday.” Susan, thank you. Great * and great phrase “as a lover of the God whose wisdom fills the Constitution.” I just might have to borrow that. That’s very good.

Alright, David, Tim, back to you guys. And our question from Joe was on FDR. How did he do on his handling of the war, but also his social policies? Joe thought an F on social policies and explosive growth. Tim, sounds like that’s pretty much what you’re giving him too. I certainly would. On the beyond the Constitution powers of the federal government being expanded like crazy.

On the Same Page

Rick:

And then of course the way he got the Supreme Court to totally change its tune on what was constitutional and what wasn’t. Probably the most damage that he did was that because it allowed for now any expansion of the federal government and the court rubber stamping it. So, let’s get to the last part of his question. Dave, did you have anything else on FDR?

David:

That’s pretty much it. I agree exactly with what you’ve just summarized. We all are pretty much on the same page.

Rick:

Alright, well then let’s go to the last part of his question which was, “Who would you rank as our top five presidents?” This ought to be fun. Who’s going first?

Tim:

Well, he asked David.

Rick:

Oh, that’s right.

Tim:

So, Rick, here’s the deal. Why don’t we just sit back and think.

Rick:

Yeah. **

Tim:

Let’s evaluate his choices.

Rick:

I like that idea.

Tim:

And then if we think we need to make some improvements to his list, we can move that direction.

Rick:

We have officially, in radio terminology, thrown this to you, Dave.

Top Five Presidents

Tim:

Well, and I would like to know not just your top five, I want them in order – one, two, three, four, five. So, who do you think was the best president? And then number two, number three, number four, number five.

David:

I like Joe’s question better because I don’t have to give them in order. I just have to give you my top five.

Tim:

Well, but see if you’re giving the top five you have to have one, two, three, four, five.

David:

I’ll give you five. But they could all be five, they could all be one, they could all be four, or two, or three. So, I’ll give you my top five. This is not necessarily the order because I haven’t thought through who would be one out of the five. But the ones I go for is going to be George Washington first.

Tim:

Of course.

David:

I think you have to start there because he is the best example of what the correct constitutional government is to look like. He takes everything they’ve done, he understands what they’re doing, and what he did in office is a great guideline for every other president. Here’s the limitations, here’s what you can do, here’s what you can’t do, here’s where you go to Congress, here’s where you do it as president. Here’s what you ask the judges, whatever. I think that’s the model. So, I start with George Washington.

Rick:

Truly a servant leader as well, right. He was all about, “Hey, I’m here to serve. I’d like to go home, but I’m going to do this as long as the nation needs me. But I’m willing to give up this power. I’m not going to hoard it.”

David:

Well, and remember that’s what got the attention of the King of England was they asked him to be King over here and he said, “No way”. And that’s when the king said he must indeed be a really great man to have turned down that much power. And then after he tried to go home after the first term and the nation convinced him that it really needed him because four years was enough to get us into this brand new system, we needed some more tradition.

Willing To Do What George Washington Wouldn”t

David:

So, he gave another four years, but then went home after that and set the precedent for all of the presidents that you don’t go past two terms. Until FDR said, “Well, I’ll do four. I’m willing to do what George Washington wouldn’t do.”

But that’s servant leadership kind of thing Tim mentioned is exactly what you saw with him. And so I think he’s in the top five.

I think Jefferson is because at a time when there is a mentality with the federalists that the federal government is doing more, and more, and more, and more, and more, Jefferson says, “No, federal government needs to do what the Constitution says it can do. And just because there’s an opportunity to expand, you don’t expand.” And so Jefferson did that very well. He also really well modeled the integration of faith and public policy.

We often think of him as a non-religious guy who did separation church and state. But by his own understanding of that that’s why he started a church in the capital, that’s why he goes to church in the capital, that”s why he asked preachers to come preach at the church in the Capitol. That’s why he does treaties where he gives federal funds to Indian tribes for missionaries and for priests to teach the Indians. You go through that, he was not a secular guy and I think that’s significant. So, I think he kind of helped pull the government back to where it should be constitutionally.

I think Lincoln is really significant because without Lincoln, had it been another leader, there probably would not have been a successful outcome to the Civil War. We might not have a nation after that. And the way it ended, his willingness to bring people back in and try to get them reconciled, I think is really key. So, I think Lincoln is a real key guy.

There’s a lot of people who don’t like him. I live in the south, I understand that, I know that. I’ve talked to governors from the south who, he’s the greatest villain in their mind. But I think God used Lincoln to save the nation and to turn it in a different direction on an area where it had been particularly blind, had a big blind spot.

Shout Out to Harry Truman

David:

I’ve got to give a shout out to Harry Truman. Harry Truman, I think, is a lot like FDR in some ways. I’m going to give him an F on social policy, but he’s the guy willing to take on the desegregation issue in the military. Willing to say, “No, everybody is created equal and we’re all going to be equal.” He’s the guy that is willing to use force to save lives. The atomic bomb was not a use of excessive force. It was a measure that saved anywhere from 2 to 15 million lives, depending on which estimate you look at.

His willingness to travel in foreign affairs, travel across the world, and say, “Let’s never have another world war and the way we do that is we live by the Sermon on the Mount and by the Ten Commandments. Will all your world leaders join me in doing that?” I’ve got to give a shout out to Truman for that kind of courage. He did, he took on his own party on issues of race and other things. But he’s bad on social policy, so he’s not in my top 5.

I would put Coolidge in the top five because Coolidge did so much to reverse Woodrow Wilson.

Tim:

This is number four on your list.

David:

Well, it”s four out of the five.

Tim:

Correct. No, no, yeah. So, we’re not numbering them.

David:

That’s right.

Tim:

But this is number four, so you have Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Coolidge. Four of the top five so far.

Leaving Fifth Place Open

David:

That’s right. And so Coolidge what he did as a constitutional guy. He”s kind of like back to Thomas Jefferson. After we get through this expansive thing of Woodrow Wilson you get Coolidge saying, “No, the Constitution works really well. Let’s go back to that.” He’s an extremely religious guy, but he didn’t wear it on his sleeve. But he let it inculcate his speeches and what he did. I think Calvin Coolidge is just an absolutely unheralded president that brought America back to reality at a time when socialism, progressivism, was really pushing America in the wrong direction.

And I’m leaving the fifth slot open because I’m giving it a conditional right now. And the conditional is if Trump continues the way he has, I’ll probably put him in the top five. What he’s done on deregulating government, what he’s done on putting his foot down with foreign nations, what he’s done on the issues of religious liberty, what he has done on judges. Again, here we’re in his 12th round, I think it”s the 12th group of judges he”s set up and I still can’t find one I disagree with.

I look at what he’s doing, I look at what the Cabinet level departments are doing. This is, in my opinion, so far the most radical turnaround that I am aware of for having gone in an opposite direction as quick as we have and being able reverse things that most of us thought would never be reversed. Now, we’ve got another two and a half years to see, but that’s why I’m leaving it open right now. The changes he’s brought about have been, in my mind, unprecedentedly remarkable.

Tim:

Okay, now Rick, not that I disagree with the list my dad just espoused–

David:

Do you want me to say what you’re going to say? Because when I say.

Tim:

But, Rick, he he did not include–

David:

Your son.

Tim:

He did not include your hero.

Outpacing Reagan?!

Rick:

I was actually I was actually sitting here thinking as you were describing the conditional on Trump and I have to admit that Reagan was my number five on my list. And everything you said is exactly right because if he continues to do what he’s doing he will actually far outpace Reagan in terms of results.

Now Reagan I consider to be a wartime president and usually–

David:

That’s right, Cold War, that”s right.

Rick:

–we put the presidents that deal with a war above others and we see that kind of leadership that maybe other presidents didn’t have the chance to do it. So, what Reagan did with the Cold War is just hard to beat. His rhetoric, his standing in the face, his pro-life stance even when most of his cabinet and others, he did a lot of things that really took courage. And his tax cuts, and his policy, and all that.

But, all that said, he blew it on the judges. Well, he was half and half, right? So, he gave us some bad judges and gave us some good judges. Trump’s doing far better on his percentages on the judges. I think you’re right, David, on that one. I think he could, I think Trump could nudge Reagan down a slot for me.

Hey, let’s take a quick break. We’ll come back and we’ll dive in more to those top five presidents. At least in the very humble opinion of your radio hosts here today. Stay with us, folks. We”ll be right back on WallBuilders Live.

Outro:

Calvin Coolidge said, “The more I study the Constitution, the more I realize that no other document devised by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity. To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.”

Leadership Training Program

Rick:

Hey, friends! We’ve got a great program to share with you today. It”s the WallBuilders Leadership Training Program and it’s an opportunity for 18 to 25 year olds to come spend two weeks diving into the original documents we’re always talking about here on WallBuilders Live.

Tim, you’ve already been doing this a couple of summers and seen the results of young people coming to this program. We’re going to see more of them coming this year.

Tim:

Yeah, Rick, it”s something that”s been cool to see the transformation with young people coming in. The emphasis, for us, largely is a pursuit of truth. We have a culture that doesn’t know what truth is. We don’t know what biblical truth is, or constitutional truth, or the American heritage that we have. And so we really dive into original documents and say, “Well, what did they actually write? What did they actually do? Not just what did somebody say, what is actually true, and the truth is what’s transformational.

David:

Yeah, guys. This really is a remarkable opportunity. And for those who want to spend time with us and spend time in the original documents, this is a great program. So, if you’re from 18 to 25, or you know someone who’s 18 to 25, send them to sign up for one of our three sessions this summer at WallBuilders.com/leadershiptraining.

Intro:

Thomas Jefferson said, “In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.”

Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live on this Foundations of Freedom Thursday. And again, that great question about the top five presidents. I think we’re pretty close on the three of us, we might have time to get to another question.

I had an honorable mention too I wanted to throw out. And not for all of his policies because like we were saying F on some of these social policies. And I know a lot of people today say Teddy Roosevelt was just part of the progressive movement, but he was also a great example of a man. He also talked a lot about the Bible.

An Example in Leadership

Rick:

And if you read Batterson”s book on Play the Man and the way he describes Teddy Roosevelt’s example and how he taught manhood to an entire generation. I just love that. And so he kind of used his role as a leader in some positive ways there. But as an overall president I wouldn’t put him in the top five, but just an honorable mention there.

Okay, so, Tim, did you have any other presidential guys you wanted to mention?

Tim:

I think we really covered most of the guys I was thinking about.

Rick:

Okay.

Tim:

As you mentioned, I don’t think Trump at this point would be in my top five. But if he keeps going he certainly could get there. But, no, I agree with the assessment for the rest of these guys.

Rick:

Yeah, I was going to echo too, David, your deal on Lincoln because I know we still have a lot of people that don’t like him, especially from the south. But I just think indispensable. Just probably the toughest presidency of the history of the country. And if you go read his speech that he gave at Independence Hall on his way to be inaugurated where he said the principles in the Declaration of Independence were so important he would rather be assassinated on the spot than give up those principles.

And then five years later to lie in state right there in Independence Hall and 85,000 people come by. Just, he did a great job on that front of reiterating those principles and dealing with the toughest time in our nation’s history. So, I’m with you there. I”d definitely put him in my top.

How Do We Overturn the Johnson Amendment?

Rick:

Okay, we’ve got about three minutes here, guys. Quick question from Mary James. She says, “I’m looking for direction as to how the Johnson Amendment may be overturned? How can the body of Christ prosper when we’re subject to the government in our churches? We cannot serve two masters.”

And before you guys answer, for folks at home the Johnson Amendment is what Lyndon Johnson slid in there in 1954 in the appropriations bill to try to muzzle churches and prevent pastors from being able to speak out on the biblical perspective of different issues in the culture. If they could be labeled as “political”. And so what Mary means is that government is literally inside our churches trying to muzzle our pastors and prevent them from having free speech or freedom of religion. So, tactically, strategically, David, Tim, how do we overturn this thing?

David:

Well, first thing is, as she says, how can the body of Christ prosper when we’re subject to the government in our churches? That’s our choice. We don’t have to be subject to the government in this area when God has said something different. So, we’re subject to the government in this area only because we put the government above God in this particular aspect. So, that’s our fault for doing that – that’s not the government’s fault. I don’t blame the government.

Now, here’s the second thing I”d say – it can be overturned because even those who passed the Johnson Amendment said it was never designed to apply to churches. That’s another reason to ignore it because the intent of the law was never to muzzle churches. It was to muzzle outside organizations.

Then the third thing I’d point to is it can be overturned simply by non-enforcement. And at this point, Attorney General Jeff Sessions has announced to the Justice Department they will not enforce the Johnson Amendment in this administration. Because this is a law that has been misinterpreted, misapplied, and brings the wrong results. So, you can just stop prosecution of it and that’s going on.

If the Church Would Do What it”s Supposed to Do

David:

But the way you specifically overturn it is you get Congress to just set it aside. And there are a number of measures in Congress that are moving that way, that have moved that way. At this point, Democrats have blocked every one of them. They love free speech for their groups and their nonprofits, but they don’t want it for the church. But that’s going to have to come through Congress to be set aside unless, at some point, it gets dumped by the courts.

And we’ve been trying with legal groups for eight years to get a lawsuit on this and the IRS refuses to take the bait. Because they know that if they get in court the courts are going to dump this law because it’s not a law, it was never intended to do this. So, there’s four, or five, or six, ways of sitting this thing aside.

But the first thing is to recognize it was never designed to muzzle churches and for churches to allow themself to be muzzled, when God has told them to speak His word clearly, and articulate, and especially Acts 4 where the apostles that we have to decide whether we’re going to obey God or man – we think we”ll obey God. This thing would have no impact at all if churches would do what they’re supposed to do.

Rick:

It is definitely one of those where intimidation is more powerful than the actual law. So, don’t let those letters from outside groups intimidate you pastors out there. And congregation, let your pastor know not to be intimidated, and that you’ve got their back on this, and you want them to fight, and be a part of pulpit initiative. There’s so many different ways to be involved in this. So, Mary, it”s a great question. Appreciate you asking that today.

Others that want to send in your questions, send them to [email protected]. One of the ways you fight these things and continue to have victory is educating, equipping, and inspiring your friends, and family, and your neighbors. You can do that through WallBuilders Live and we need your help to do that.