What Is The Freedom Of Conscience Government Jurisdiction: In today’s episode, we are interviewing Patriot Academy alumni and Alliance Defending Freedom attorney, Caleb Dalton. What are the jurisdictions that the government has? Should we have a limited government? Has the government crossed a line? Tune in now to find out! 

Air Date: 10/24/2019

Guest: Caleb Dalton

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton

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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Greatest Political Privilege

President Calvin Coolidge said, “€œThe more I study the Constitution, the more I realize that no other document devised by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity. To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.”€

RICK:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! where we talk about today’s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture. Always from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

Values Voter Summit

But, we do sometimes change the location from which we talk about those things, which we’re going to do again today. It’s an opportunity to grab an interview out at the Values Voter Summit in Washington D.C. where we got to spend a couple of days hanging out with some great folks from across the nation, grassroots folks that are making a difference in their community, as well as national leaders and spokespersons. Is that politically correct enough for you?

Spokesspersons for all kinds of organizations were out there and. So, we had yesterday on the program, Dennis Prager. I so enjoyed that interview.

If you missed it, go to WallBuildersLive.com right now, and you can listen to it. Later in the program today, Caleb Dalton from Alliance Defending Freedom. Next week, we”€™ll have Gary Bauer, Tony Perkins, Dana Loesch, John Hostettler.

We’ll have Eric Metaxas, Mat Staver, Todd Starnes, General Jerry Boykin. We had the chance to visit with a lot of great folks out at Values Voter Summit. We’re bringing it all to you right here on WallBuilders Live!

As always, we are with David Barton, America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker, pastor and president of WallBuilders. And, my name is Rick Green; I’m a former Texas state legislator, national speaker, and author.

Thank you for being a part of this. Looking forward to the next few weeks in bringing you these live interviews from Values Voter Summit.

Always tune in, though. You can do so at our website, WallBuildersLive.com. You can get us on a podcast app.

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Also, be sure to click on that “€œdonate”€ button if you like what you hear today and you want more of this education and want to help equip and inspire folks all over the nation to get involved and be a part of the solution for preserving freedom. Donate to WallBuilders Live! It’s what makes this possible.

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Now this is actually a Foundations of Freedom Thursday program. Normally, that would mean that your questions would drive the conversation. So, typically on v Foundations of Freedom Thursday, we take as many of your questions as we can about foundational principles. Still send those in to [email protected]; and we”€™ll try to get to those in the next couple of weeks.

The Jurisdictional Role of Government

In the meantime, our conversation today is going to be centered around the proper role of government: the jurisdictional role of government, especially when it comes to our rights of conscience. But, we don’t give government jurisdiction over everything in our lives, right? I mean, that’s the concept of authority and jurisdiction that we don’t talk about much in terms of what a government should or shouldn’t do.

DAVID:

Well, governments have jurisdictions, and it’s all about where you draw the lines. And, traditionally we drew the lines for what’s called a “€œlimited government.”€ And, a lot of that limited government was based on the definition of “€œjurisdictions:”€ Here’s what government can and should do, and here’s all we’re going to let it do.

And, a lot of that was based on, literally, what the Bible taught, because the Bible vested a lot of authority in families and in parents. Therefore, we say, “€œOkay, government, you can’t be our parent, run our family, or tell us what to do with our kids. We will educate them where we want to, not where you want to.

Also, the Bible talked about the jurisdiction of a church; what it should be able to do. So, we limit government and say, “€œOkay, government, you can’t have a nationally established religion, tell us what our faith is going to be or what we need to believe. You can’t punish us if we believe something you don’t like.

The Rights of Conscience

And, that’s called the “€œrights of conscience.”€ That goes back to the very early years of American settlers coming in. They wanted to protect the rights of conscience, because in Europe if they didn’t believe what the government told them to believe and didn’t have the beliefs the government said, they would be punished.

So, we said, “€œNo, that’s not what limited government is. You’re not going to get in the jurisdiction that God gave the Church. And then, there’s also the individual.

There are certain things the individual is to do for themselves. So, our whole philosophy of how to have a government that did the right thing was really based around the Bible telling us there are other jurisdictions that belong to other entities that government is not to get into.

And, that’s where, when we get to the Declaration of Independence, it says: “€œWe believe there’s a Creator God. And, we believe the Creator God gives a certain set of inalienable rights and that government is not to interfere with those rights.”€ That, again, is a jurisdictional issue.

We don’t let the government interfere with defending ourselves, with what we believe religiously, or with what we say or think, et cetera. So, this all goes back to the concept that there is a God who draws the lines, and we’re going to have government respect those lines. And, that’s how we get limited government.

So, that’s the way it’s supposed to work. And, government is not supposed to be everything to everybody or do everything for everyone. That’s just not the way it was designed.

When you do that, you get the wrong kind of government, which always leads to tyranny and oppression.

“€œAgainst All Forms of Tyranny over the Mind of Man.”€

RICK:

Well, and it begins with simply stepping across that boundary, that authority, that jurisdictional line. And, sometimes it’s government being well-meaning.

They want to help someone or solve a problem. But, once they step across that line, typically, it’s going to result in exactly the word you just used, which is “€œtyranny.”€ Of course, Jefferson said he had “€œsworn on the altar of God Almighty against all forms of tyranny over the mind of man.”€

And, that’s what we’re gonna be talking about today is your mind”€”your conscience, that freedom of conscience”€”and making sure the government doesn’t have tyranny over that. Some the stories that we heard at the Values Voter Summit just were unbelievable, some of the places that government”€™s stepping into.

And so, when we come back from the break”€”Caleb Dalton was with us at the Values Voter Summit. He’s an attorney for Alliance Defending Freedom. They have thousands of affiliated attorneys across the country who are dealing with tons of cases like this.

So, Caleb gave us a great update. We’re gonna share that interview with you when we come back. Stay with us. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live!

President Thomas Jefferson said, “€œI know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society, but the people themselves. And, if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.”€

America’s Hidden History

DAVID:

Hi, this is David Barton.

TIM:

And, this is Tim Barton, and we want to let you know about a series that’s happening right now on TBN on Thursday night. TBN is the Trinity Broadcasting Network. Every Thursday night, there’s a series that we’ve filmed called America’s Hidden History.

And, this season is called “€œAmerica’s Hidden Heroes.”€ The reason is, we highlight heroes from American history. For years we’ve been focusing on the forgotten history and heros of the nation.

And now, we have a TV show just highlighting some of those heroes.

DAVID:

These are inspiring stories about some of the greatest people maybe you’ve never heard about. We go on location to the sites and show you where the events happened. It’s the stories of folks like Bronco Charlie, Stagecoach Mary, Jedediah Smith, Robert Smalls, and so many inspiring folks.

TIM:

Now, this happens every Thursday night, and the time is gonna be different based on where you live. Either way, we think this is something that will so encourage and inspire you in learning some of these great stories from America’s Hidden History.

Welcome Caleb Dalton

RICK:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live! Thanks for staying with us today. We are at the Values Voter Summit. And, we have a good friend of mine Caleb Dalton.

He”€™s a Patriot Academy graduate who”€™s now with Alliance Defending Freedom. Good to have you, brother.

CALEB DALTON:

Hi, Rick. Thanks so much for having me.

RICK:

Hey, man, so you guys just did your panel. What did you guys talk about?

CALEB DALTON:

We talked about the importance of religious liberty and the impact that administrations can have on that. So, we heard the story of one of the Alliance Defending Freedom”€™s clients, Don Vander Boon.

He runs a meat packing company in Michigan. And, Don ran into this situation where, right after this same-sex-marriage decision, he has literature out in his and his employee break room.

RICK:

Wait a minute. I’m already confused. A meatpacking plant packing plat, religious liberty, and marriage. I know we’ve had all these cases with photographers and bakers.

CALEB DALTON:

We”€™ve never had meat-packer case.

RICK:

All right. So, it has to do with employees in the breakroom.

Inspecting Beliefs or Meat?

CALEB DALTON:

Yeah. So, employees would bring literature and put it in the breakroom, like magazines or newspapers, just for casual reading. Well, he saw a bunch of articles out there in support of same-sex marriage.

So, he thought hey, “€œI have some religious beliefs about this and personal beliefs. I’ll throw out an article with a different viewpoint about the Christian view of marriage.”€ RICK:

He didn’t ban the other guys.

CALEB DALTON:

No not at all.

RICK:

He just added some literature.

CALEB DALTON:

And, he is the owner of the business, right? He could have if he wanted, you would think. Well, a few hours later”€”as you may know, in the meatpacking industry, if your USDA inspected, you have to have an inspector on site all the time. Well, he gets called into his own office.

He’s told, “€œHey, there’s somebody in your office.”€

RICK:

This wasn”€™t an employee; this was a government bureaucrat.

DAVID:

Oh no. Not to be inspecting”€”telling him what he can and can’t put out.

CALEB DALTON:

That’s right.

DAVID:

Are you kidding me?

Held Hostage by the USDA

CALEB DALTON:

So, they he’s called unto his own office. They close his office door and wave this article that he had put in the break room in his face and said, “€œAre you going to leave this up? Because if you are, we’re going to pull your license.”€

RICK:

Oh come on.

CALEB DALTON:

That’s right. So, he was faced with a choice at that point. If they pull his license”€”

RICK:

Yes, let’s put this in perspective. So, this is a USDA inspector in charge of”€”he”€™s supposed to be making sure the meat is safe.

CALEB DALTON:

That”€™s right: Is this good? Or, Is this choice? Or, Is this prime. They’re inspecting meat.

RICK:

Which, don’t get me started on the fact that he shouldn’t be there in the first place. But, that’s a whole other issue. Are you serious?

So, called into his own office. You’ve been called to the principal’s office. You’re the principal.

CALEB DALTON:

That’s right.

RICK:

He called you into your own office. And, this government bureaucrat”€™s going to tell you you can’t put a magazine article out.

DAVID:

And, he’s there to check the meat, not your beliefs on marriage.

It”€™s Shocking

CALEB DALTON:

Right. It was shocking to me. This case is still always shocking to me, every time I talk about it: that a government agency would think they can hold a business owner hostage. That was really what they’re doing, holding as hostage.

If they pull his license, he can no longer operate and earn income. That’s his livelihood.. And, 50 employees would all lose their jobs as well.

RICK:

He’s saying, “€œYou can’t express what you believe by putting that article out in your own lobby.”€

DAVID:

“€œWe don’t believe in free speech in your office. You’re going to use government-condoned speech. And, we’ll tell you what it is, or we”€™ll jerk your livelihood.”€

CALEB DALTON:

Yeah.

DAVID:

That doesn’t seem quite right.

CALEB DALTON:

Yeah, and the bureaucracy gets worse. First, they came to his office threatening to pull his license. So, he said, “€œOkay, well, I’m not saying what you’re doing is right.

“€œThe First Amendment gives me the right to do this. I’ll take the article off for now; but, I’m going to pursue an appeal process on this.”€

So, he started that in 2015. He never heard anything back over a year later, nothing back. He’s afraid every time, if he puts anything out there, they’re gonna pull his license.

RICK:

Or if he says anything. Think of the chill that would have on your own expression.

CALEB DALTON:

Yeah, it’s crazy. And, he ended up about a year later calling Alliance Defending Freedom. We got involved.

New Administration Issued Executive Order on Religious Liberty

The new administration came in and issued an executive order on religious liberty, as I’m sure you’re aware. And, as a result, that actually trickled down to the Department of Agriculture. Then, through our advocacy and that of the Family Research Council, who is hosting the Value Voters Summit, at the national level got a policy directive from the Department of Agriculture saying, “€œNo.

Employees and employers have these free speech rights to express controversial messages. Whether it’s the employer or the employees, they all have these rights. We aren’t going to be pulling our {licenses} because somebody says something we disagree with.”€

So, the end result was great. But, it was outrageous. It really was.

RICK:

And, for it to take that long. How many other employers in any business that has any regulation whatsoever would be thinking, “€œHey that could be me.”€ So, the chilling effect continues.

This is a great example, though. Some people will often say, “€œOh, I’m not a photographer and don”€™t do weddings; so, that it doesn’t affect me.”€ They think they won”€™t have to worry about it.

But, it affects everyone.

CALEB DALTON:

Right. That’s absolutely right.

ADF, the Supreme Court, and “€œSex”€

RICK:

This one ADF is so important. And, what you guys do is so important. You’ve got thousands of cases and a couple thousand affiliate attorneys now as well.

CALEB DALTON:

Yes.

DAVID:

Last Tuesday, ADF had a case at the U.S. Supreme Court.

CALEB DALTON:

We did.

DAVID:

I’m really curious. The case is about how to define “€œman”€ or “€œwoman”€. Do words mean what they”€™re supposed to mean? What was your read of the oral arguments, watching the justices? What do you think?

CALEB DALTON:

So, I was in a lawyer”€™s lounge listening live at the Supreme Court, and it’s always hard to predict, right? I would never want to predict an outcome. But, I think the law is very clear, because we’re talking about Can a court redefine what Congress already said?

Guys Competing in Girl”€™s Sports

So, Congress said, “€œSex discrimination is prohibited in employment.”€ Well, what are the implications if we say, “€œ”€™Sex”€™ actually doesn’t mean “€˜sex;”€™ it means “€˜gender identity.”€™ It means a bunch of other stuff.”€? An employer can’t rely on the law if a court or an administrator can redefine it.

And, this really has implications way farther than that, though. More than employers, it has implications on women and girls in sports.

DAVID:

I mean, Title IX, Title VII.

CALEB DALTON:

Absolutely, we represent athletes in high school who have been denied opportunities, female athletes, who Title IX was designed to protect, right? And, they’ve been denied the opportunity for college scholarships, to compete at higher levels, because individuals who are male are competing in their track and field sports.

RICK:

Who couldn’t win in the male sport.

CALEB DALTON:

Right.

RICK:

In several of these cases, they came in 30 or 35th, whatever. And so, they decide to go compete in the girls. Then, they get a big trophy and feel good about it.

What is at Stake?

CALEB DALTON:

And, that’s what’s at stake in a case like this. If “€œsex”€ means way more”€”if it means “€œgender identity”€ and whatever you identify is the subjective, then there’s a lot more at stake here in a case like this. So, I’m very hopeful that the Court will look at this and say, “€œCongress knew what they meant in 1964, and it doesn’t mean something different today than what they put, the words on a paper back then.”€

DAVID:

Did this involve the funeral home, transgender stuff, or is that a different hearing that”€™s coming up. Was that part of this one?

CALEB DALTON:

It was. Yeah. So, in this case, it’s a funeral home owner, a family-owned business.

Tom Ross has been”€”this business has been in the family for almost 100 years. And, he’s a funeral home director who hired an individual, Stevens, over seven years ago. Then, a few years later, he comes back and says, “€œI want to dress as a female,”€ as a funeral director, one interacting with grieving families.

And, Tom the owner said, “€œWell, that’s fine to do on your own time. But, here there’s a dress code: a male dress code and a female dress code that’s professional. It’s part of the grieving process to not be distracting from the clients who are there.”€

And, instead of complying with that dress code, this individual decided wouldn’t. And, he sued Tom Ross. That’s ultimately how he ended up the Supreme Court.

Three Cases Bundled Together with Huge Implications

DAVID:

So, there are three cases that they bundled together on this thing.

CALEB DALTON:

That’s right. Yes.

RICK:

Tom was the one that basically said, “€œLook, these families are coming and grieving. This is not a time for them to try to grapple with the whole transgender issue.”€

CALEB DALTON:

Right.

RICK:

He was really thinking about his clients going through an experience that is already difficult, and not making it more difficult.

DAVID:

This is a huge for those that think marriage should be between a man and woman. You can’t do that unless you have a man and a woman. So, this is this is a really, really big deal on definitions.

You know, I think there are now 92 legally identified gender identities out there.

RICK:
Wow.

A Decision in January or June?

DAVID:

I think Facebook gives you 74 choices on your profile. So, if “€œman”€ and “€œwoman”€ in the law doesn’t mean “€œman”€ and “€œwoman”€ but means 92 different things, oh my gosh.

CALEB DALTON:

What’s an employer supposed to do?

RICK:

What do you think the time line is on the case? It was just heard.

CALEB DALTON:

This is only the second day of the Supreme Court term this year.

RICK:

So, this August, maybe?

DAVID:

This will be the last case to come down in June, because it’s going to be the most controversial.

RICK:

So, they’ll do what they do when they leave town. That’s right.

CALEB DALTON:

It could be the end of June. It could be January for all we know.

DAVID:

Which would be shocking. If it comes out early, this court has a lot more confidence in themselves right than I would have imagined. So, we’ll see.

RICK:

The best way to follow it on y”€™all”€™s website?

CALEB DALTON:

ADFlegal.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook for updates.

Has ADF Seen a Shift?

DAVID:

One other thing. I’ve watched you guys win so many cases: for campus, free speech codes against universities. I mean, so many things.

Now, with 150 new judges, we’re winning cases we haven’t won in my lifetime. So, from where you’re sitting and the fact you guys litigate so many scores of cases every year, are you seeing a shift in wins? Or, you’ve been winning any way.

It didn”€™t matter on the judge. Are you seeing a change there? And, what do you see in the future? What do you think’s happening?

CALEB DALTON:

Well, it shouldn’t matter what judge. They should apply the law. You would think.

We have been very blessed: nine wins at the United States Supreme Court since 2011. In the last year”€”you mentioned photographers, videographers. So, the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals just upheld the right of videographers to pick and choose.

They serve all people, but not every message. And, that’s really what a lot of these clients are looking for, is just the right to decide What message am I going to be speaking through my own art?

And, thankfully, I think we have seen some great victories, some from newer judges who are on the courts. But, we should all be advocating for”€”it doesn’t matter who is on the court, they should uphold the law, right?

DAVID:

Right. That’s right.

RICK:

I’ve got to brag on you for a second, man. So, I feel like a proud pop in a way. I know you’re not my son or anything.

But, you are a Patriot Academy grad.

A Patriot Academy Grad

CALEB DALTON:

Absolutely.

RICK:

You came to either the first or the second one.

CALEB DALTON:

I think second.

RICK:

I remember sitting up in the hotel suite when we had everybody over and you playing guitar and singing worship songs. Do you remember that?

CALEB DALTON:

That was a blast.

RICK:

That was a long time ago, like 16 years ago. Do you realize that?

CALEB DALTON:

That’s crazy.

RICK:

Now you are in Washington D.C., sitting in the Supreme Court, working on these cases. I just love the fact that you’re having such a great impact and that you’re with ADF. It’s just fun to watch bro., I’m really proud of you.

CALEB DALTON:

It’s awesome. I love the legacy of folks like Rick and David. Thanks for all the work that y’all have done.

Being at Patriot Academy back then was, I think, a formative time of my life. And, like you said, it’s crazy. It’s been 16 years, but learning”€”

RICK:

Really, at that age, you are figuring out What do I really believe? What do I really want to do with my life?

CALEB DALTON:

Yes.

RICK:

And, to see you doing this now.

Another Big Case

CALEB DALTON:

Learning to advocate for positions in a winsome manner, working through that political process, getting the boots-on-the-ground training was awesome.

RICK:

Yeah. So, what”€™s the next big case after this one, the big Supreme Court one you were just there for?

CALEB DALTON:

That’s really hard to predict. I filed, just this last week, a case that kind of involves some of the same issues we were just talking about. I represent a teacher fired in Virginia this this last year, when he was ordered by the school to use male pronouns to refer to a female.

DAVID:

I remember that. Yeah.

CALEB DALTON:

So, he”€”and I think this is kind of an issue the courts are gonna have to address is: how far can the government go on this issue to compel you to speak a message that violates your faith? He was very accommodating to the student.

DAVID:

He was.

CALEB DALTON:

He used the student’s preferred name. She wanted to be called by a traditionally masculine name. He teaches French.

So, he had the whole class actually pick new names so she wouldn’t be the only one changing names and feel singled out.

A Teacher Fired for Not Violating His Conscience

RICK:

Interesting.

CALEB DALTON:

He really went out of his way to accommodate the student. And, the school board said, “€œThat’s not enough. You have to speak those words, or you will be fired.”€

And, he couldn’t, in good conscience, do that. Therefore, they fired him. He”€™s a father of four in education who can’t find another job now because of what the school board has done to him.

And, I think that’s something, as a society, we need to grapple with. Tolerance is a two-way street. Right now, it seems like a one-way ratchet.

RICK:

Yeah.

CALEB DALTON:

And, that’s not a healthy place for our society.

RICK:

Wait a minute. Say that again. That was good.

Tolerance”€”go ahead.

CALEB DALTON:

Yeah. I mean tolerance should be a two-way street; give it to both. But, right now, it’s a one-way ratchet. They say, “€œIt’s our way or the highway,”€ right?

RICK:

Good line. Yeah. So, right now that”€™s at the state court or federal court?

CALEB DALTON:

Virginia state court.

RICK:

Okay. Well, we look forward to having you back and hearing about another great victory there, because eventually that will affect other people all across the country. We were talking about that.

These Policies Affect Everyone

I mean, the meat packer or whoever it is, these policies affect everyone. You can’t watch this stuff happen and say, “€œOh well, I wish it wasn”€™t happening. But, I’ve got other fish to fry; this doesn’t affect me.”€

It does it affects you and every home, every backyard, every church in America.

CALEB DALTON:

Absolutely

RICK:

So, thanks for the work.

CALEB DALTON:

Thank you Rick.

DAVID:

Thanks, Caleb.

RICK:

Caleb Dalton from Alliance Defending Freedom. Stay with us. We”€™ll be right back.

Share a veteran’s story

We WantTo Hear Your Vet Story

Rick:

Hey
friends! If you have been listening to WallBuilders Live for very long at all, you know how much we respect our veterans and how appreciative we are of the sacrifice they make to make our freedoms possible. One of the ways that we love to honor those veterans is to tell their stories here on WallBuilders Live.  Once in awhile, we get an opportunity to interview veterans that have served on those front lines that have made incredible sacrifices have amazing stories that we want to share with the American people.

One of the very special things we get to do is interview World War II veterans. You’ve heard those interviews here on WallBuilders Live!, from folks that were in the Band of Brothers, to folks like Edgar Harrell that survived the Indianapolis to so many other great stories you heard on WallBuilders Live!

You have friends and family that also served.  If you have World War II veterans in your family that you would like to have their story shared here on WallBuilders Live, please e-mail us at [email protected].  Give us a brief summary of the story and we’ll set up an interview. Thanks so much for sharing here on WallBuilders Live!

Questions of Power

Thomas Jefferson said, “€œIn questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.”

Quite a Surprise

RICK:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live! Thanks for staying with us today. We were at a Values Voter Summit in that last segment with that interview with Caleb Dalton.

We’re back in studio now with David and Tim Barton. Guys, we had a great time out there where we got to visit a lot of folks.

This interview was one of the ones that really surprised me. I could not believe that we were going to have a right of conscience case from a meatpacking plant with government regulators out of the USDA.

I just could not get over the fact that those things intersected somehow.

TIM:

Well, and in the weird thought that you have not packed meat properly, not cut it properly, or not treated it properly if you have literature on a table that your employees can read. And, by the way, not requiring your employees to read.

DAVID:

And, it’s about marriage, not about meatpacking, which has nothing to do with it.

TIM:

Right. And so, if you if you happen to put out a piece paper that has words on it that people don’t like or that offends, then you can no longer pack meat, because clearly if you have the wrong idea on words on paper, then you’re not going”€”

RICK:

Unreal.

Inalienable Rights

TIM:

The whole thing is just ludicrous. And, this is where “€“even back in an opening segment, we talked about the notion of God-given rights and inalienable rights the Founding Fathers identified for the king in the Declaration. But, really, it even highlighted what Americans often were thinking, what pastors were pointing out: that God has given us rights.

An the Declaration they list that the first among these God-given rights is life, then liberty; and Jefferson wrote, “€œthe pursuit of happiness,”€ but we know from many writings, that was largely property. Those are things that God had given. Then, there were many more beyond that.

And, in the right of conscience is something that a lot of Founding Fathers talked about, that the government never had any business getting involved in conscience. An individual’s conscience was something that would never be submitted to the government. It was only between an individual and God.

And, to see that you have a government where they don’t even recognize”€”if you’re working for the USDA”€”

DAVID:

Yeah. The meat inspector was with the U.S. Department of Agriculture, USDA.

TIM:

So, whatever his title is going to be, a “€œmeat inspector.”€ To imagine that your job has now extended beyond just inspecting meat, to inspecting the motives of someone’s personal conscience and their views on marriage based on their religious faith, again utterly ridiculous.

Seeing the Fruits of Labor

And, the fact that it was held over this guy for several years, and he didn’t know was going to happen. Thank God for for groups like Alliance Defending Freedom. And, Rick, even so cool that it was somebody that 16 years ago you had a chance to pour into, Dad too, when you and Rick were first to the Patriot Academy years ago.

So, cool to see some of the fruits of that that labor now panning out and in great organizations like Alliance Defending Freedom. But, certainly a misunderstanding from a government bureaucrat who’s been assigned to inspect meat, that now wanted to inspect a position on marriage. “€œAnd if your position on marriage is something we disagree with, we’re not unless you pack meat.”€ That’s crazy.

Caleb Dalton on Foundations of Freedom Thursday

RICK:

It’s crazy. And, the good news is that we have the attorneys out there, like Caleb and the others from ADF, to straighten it out and go fight these battles. So, we appreciate that very much. It was encouraging to see Caleb, like you said, and so many others at Values Voter Summit.

It was kind of an iron-sharpening few days. And, getting to see there are people all across the country engaged in the culture and working hard to restore these values that we care so much about.

Your role on a Foundation of Freedom Thursday, as a listener, is to take one of our questions from the day and ask people in your life about that particular item. We don’t have questions from the audience today; so, we’ll encourage you to take our topic of the day and maybe just ask people: “€œDid you know that the federal government, even through the Department of Agriculture and the USDA, is trying to control the thoughts and the discussions of people that work at meatpacking plants?”€

That can be your question: “€œDid you know the federal government is so obsessed with controlling the thoughts of people and regulating their thoughts, that they’re even using the USDA to do so to the employees and the owners of meatpacking plants?”€ Unbelievable that that’s happening. Give us some feedback on that. What do people say when you ask them that question?
You can go to our website at WallBuildersLive.com today and send in an email and comment on what you’re hearing from folks as well or post it there on our Facebook page.

We sure appreciate you listening today. You have been listening to WallBuilders Live!

Liberties and Freedom Are Worth Defending

Samuel
Adams said, “€œThe liberties of our Country and the freedom of our civil Constitution are worth defending against hazards. And, it is our duty to defend them against all attacks.”€