General Jerry Boykin Interview – Allies Are Important: Author of Never Surrender, joins Tim Barton for an interview. Listen in as they discuss the importance of allies, especially in light of the recent developments in Turkey.

Air Date: 11/07/2019

Guest: General Jerry Boykin

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith and the Culture

Rick: Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live where we talk about the day’s hottest topics on policy, faith, the culture, pretty much everything that affects your life, backyard, your family, your church, your community, you name it. We look at all of those issues from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and our founder here at WallBuilders, Tim Barton is with us. He’s a national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders and my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas legislator.


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Alright fellows, later in the program, we’re going to have General Jerry Boykin with us. He’s a frequent guest here on WallBuilders Live. We love him, a special forces, guy -headed up the special forces for the whole country years ago. One of the original Delta Force guys and just a brilliant man, and a guy that loves the Lord and knows God’s word so he knows how to approach so many of these issues from that biblical perspective we’re always looking for.

Amazing Military Stories

Tim: He also was an author. His book, Never Surrender, tells a lot of this story, which is such a powerful testimony and really amazing things militarily as Rick, you already identified some of the things that he did. His story is so impressive, which makes it even more special for me to sit down. In fact, we’ve been with him several times in person. He was down in Texas several months ago and while he was down here, we took him out to the ranch and we pulled out some 22’s and we were going around shooting at the ranch. And I remember my dad was so impressed and dad, if you want to fill in any details of the story, but when he got the 22 and he was shooting targets 40 yards away with open sights and this little pump 22 which was an old kind of gallery gun, you’d see in the circus or something.


David: It’s a 1990 gun. It’s the first time he picked it up and he didn’t have to range it at all. He put it on his shoulder and just started popping stuff with it; first time he sets that particular gun.


Tim: And this is when you know, this is a bad dude. He’s had some good training with weapons. Anyway, so really, really fun guy, strong believer, very pro-military, loves America, and certainly, he’s one of us, those kinds of guys, so, really fun to be able to sit down and talk with him.


Rick: General Jerry Boykin, our special guest, Tim Barton will be interviewing him at the values voter summit in Washington DC when we come back from the break. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

 Front Sight Firearms Training

Rick: Hey friends, Rick green here from WallBuilders Live. What do Dennis Prager, Larry Elder, Ben Shapiro, Rick Green, Tim Barton, David Barton, what all of these folks have in common other than the fact that they’re conservative commentators that defend the constitution and educate America on the constitution? They’re all raving about Front Sight Firearms Training Institute. In fact, if you go to my website right now, today at you can watch the video of Dennis Prager training at Front Sight or Larry elder training at Front Sight or Tim Barton or myself training out there Front Sight. It’s an opportunity for you to learn how to defend yourself and your family to make sure that you’re ready and able to do that. It is a fantastic place to train.

A Fantastic Place to Train

They train literally 30-40,000 people a year and they’re just wonderful to work with. And you can go with us, we’re headed back out, and we’re going to have a great time out there as the WallBuilders family. And if you’re a supporter of WallBuilders, we have an amazing deal for you. It’s actually going to cost you one 10th of the normal price to attend this two-day handgun training because you’re going with us, and you’ll also get the constitution crash course. I’ll be teaching them the constitution; you’ll get the intellectual ammunition that you need to defend the second amendment in our constitution as well as getting the physical training on how to defend yourself and your family.


And this is for everyone, guys, gals, everyone should take this class no matter how much you shot your whole life or if you’ve never touched a gun and learn how to defend your family. We’re going to be going several times throughout the year and we would love to have you be a part of that. Check out today to find out the dates and all the specifics and get all of your questions answered. Check out today, but join us on this Front Sight trip for both your constitutional and your handgun defense training.

 Welcome General Jerry Boykin

Tim: Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. This is Tim Barton and we are joined by general Jerry Boykin, army retired and general Boykin, we have been blessed to know you for many years, in your role at the family research council. Obviously, as an author, I think we’ve had you on even talking about some of the books that you’ve written over time, and really, I think our family has probably even collectively on car road trips, read a lot of them aloud. And an amazing testimony you have, how God did work in your life, but knowing that you have a really strong military background. So, as one of the original Delta force members, you were one of the original bad guys in our military. And just so our listeners know and then we can give some more details later, you understand what military conflict is. You have worked under various presidents and actually, you’ve even done some level of work with president Trump.


At least, you’ve met president Trump and you’ve known him. And so, as we’re looking at the world right now, there certainly seems to be a lot of chaos in the Middle East, which is not really surprising. But with President Trump, acknowledging that he wants to move some troops home, we totally support the idea of we don’t want to fight an endless war. And so if that’s what we’re stopping, that’s great, but we’ll removing troops cause a lot of instability in the region. As a military mind, what do you see in all this going on?

Northeast Syria

Jerry Boykin: Yes, I see a lot of things. One is that a Northeast Syria is unlike any other place in the Middle East except Israel. Northeast Syria is a place where Yazidi’s Christians and Kurds are all living together in harmony, practicing their faith and sharing the government. It is absolutely unique. And by the way that Northeast Syria is where 90% of the GDP of Syria is generated.


Tim: Wow.


Jerry Boykin: Yes, mostly oil, that’s where the oil fields are there. Now what I’m concerned about is as the Turks move into that area, what we’re going to see as a disruption of that environment. Because I think what we see there is a model for the rest of the Middle East. If they were willing to come together and work out this kind of situation you could have Christians and Muslims and Kurds and Yazidi are all living together.


Tim: Sure.

Turkish Invasion

Jerry Boykin: But that’s the only place that you see that kind of situation. So I’m afraid the Turkish invasion there, are risks of setting that. And then of course the Kurds have been longtime allies and I hope that and I actually believe that the president is going to put in place some things that will really help to protect the Kurds, because they are our allies and they’ve done a great job helping us to fight ISIS as well as to fights Saddam Hussein


Tim: General; and I’m excited to hear that the president will potentially do something because certainly, the Kurds have been great allies on a lot of levels, even as you mentioned Saddam Hussein fighting ISIS. We have worked with an organization called the Nazarene [inaudible 07:26] where we’ve tried to rescue a lot of persecuted Christians over the middle East, the Kurds have been allies, and helping us rescue Christians. But if you will, I want to think even bigger picture because we have military troops, US military troops kind of all around the world.


And I do think sometimes Americans, maybe we questioned, we don’t fully understand why do we have troops in so many places when some people would argue that we should be, maybe a little more isolationists. Let’s just live within our borders. Do you think there’s advantage to having a military abroad in different places, and maybe should that be expanded or limited, or do you think we’re doing the right thing?

 A World Leader

Jerry Boykin: I think we are doing the right thing. I won’t say that every deployment has been something that I would have agreed with. But I think we’re doing the right thing. And Tim here’s the thing, we need to recognize. We’re the largest economy in the world. We are a much smaller percentage of the world population than I think most Americans recognize.


Tim: Yes sir.


Jerry Boykin: But we consume an inordinate amount of natural resources because we are a nation that thrives on energy and other things, but we’re also a world leader. Our president is really the number one leader in the world. He influences many countries, many regions of the world, and we have a responsibility as Americans who are the world leaders, to develop alliances, and those alliances, often have to be protected. When we for example, just take Israel; if there was a war right now in Israel and Hezbollah came across the border or are they were attacked by Jordan or Egypt or one of the other Arab nations that have attacked them in the past, we would have an obligation to come to their rescue.


We would have an obligation to support them as they fought back, which in many cases means that we leave something behind, we leave some residual force behind. Sometimes it’s to advise and assist our allies, and sometimes it’s to be prepared to be a tripwire that if they are invaded, they are invading a region where American troops are. And that’s a tripwire that causes us to then respond.


Tim: So that would be a deterrent for them.


Jerry Boykin: Be a deterrent.


Tim: Because they don’t want to have a war with America.


Jerry Boykin: That’s right.


North and South Korea

Tim: So if there are American troops there, it can help keep a region safe.


Jerry Boykin: Yes, that is exactly correct. And you stop and look at for example North Korea and South Korea; we sit on the border between the two. We sit there under the militarized zone, and we have been since 1950. So, when the Korean War started–


Tim: Yes sir.


Jerry Boykin: We’ve kept troops there, we’ve reduced it a number, but the whole point of that is, if North Korea was to invade South Korea, they are invading an area that has US forces there, and it’s known as very overt, you have us forces here. You’re attacking us forces that mean America is going to respond. And when we respond to something like that, we’re going to respond with the fastest, hardest-hitting response that we can. And then you look at NATO and NATO allies. Here is an organization that was built to defend their selves against the expansionism of the Soviet Union and the current thread of Russia coming across into Western Europe.

 Where Are Our Troops?

And we still have troops there and we still have troops quite frankly and other places. We have troops in Africa, we have troops in the Philippines, we have troops in other parts of the world, but they’re there in most cases supporting our allies, helping them with equipment and training, helping them within intelligence maybe training them in some cases. And that kind of global presence is really important for us because we can’t put US troops everywhere, that there’s a threat. But if we build allies by working with them and providing them with support we multiply our own self exponentially through our allies.


Tim: So from a military mind perspective, which certainly you have, I think you often hear kind of two trains of thought. And even as a Christian, I’ll kind of say it this way, wherewith Abraham, God said, I will bless you, that you would be a blessing. And we can look and say, America’s been so blessed, we should be helping other nations. While at the same time the founding fathers largely argued the main purpose of government is to protect the citizens God-given rights, and people would say, no, we should focus more on the inside. And so I do think you could even from a biblical perspective, argue kind of two thoughts that, if we’ve been given freedom and opportunity, we should help other people that want freedom and opportunity, as opposed to maybe just we should mind our own business. What role do you think the military should play in the midst of that?

 Defend Our Borders

Jerry Boykin: Yes, well, first of all, the two are not mutually exclusive. Our military has to be prepared to defend our borders. That is one of the reasons we have a National Guard, because the governors actually control the National Guard on a daily basis, and its part of the military. And when they’re deployed under the department of defense, they fall under a different title of the US code. They go from title 32 to title 10 when you’re under the secretary of defense, but the military has a responsibility to help protect our nation internally. What it does not have a responsibility for is law enforcement. In fact, the Posse Comitatus clearly, clearly exempts the military from being able to actually act in a law enforcement role.


So if you’ve got riots in the street, it would take the governor of that state to activate the national guard under his authority, not under the commander chief’s authority, but under his authority to help quell a riot or something. But otherwise, our militaries responsibilities internally are to protect our borders and to respond if we have an encroachment. So I think they have a role in both, but I would also say this; we do need to understand the importance of having allies and standing with our allies and being a reliable ally ourselves. And that is a longstanding tradition for America, but it’s also a longstanding foreign policy.


Tim: And that’s something I think this president has done better than some previous administrations of; we’re going to be a better friend to our allies. We’re going to help them when there are times of need. And so even though in this situation where there are some question marks about Syria and what he’s doing, I really do think to this point, he has a pretty good precedent of making some good decisions. Even though, a lot of times there’s things behind the scenes that every American doesn’t know. So on the surface, we go, I’m not sure I like that, it would seem that President Trump is smart enough that he recognizes he doesn’t want to destabilize an area necessarily.

 Destabilizing a Region

Now I’m saying this a little presumptively, General Boykin; you probably know better than I do. But I wouldn’t think President Trump would want to destabilize a region that we’ve worked hard to help bring some stability to where we’ve tried to help in those nations. And so from your perspective, would you see the same way that. President Trump, probably there’s stuff going on that maybe the average American doesn’t know that maybe it’s not quite the crisis that it sounds like, at least if you listen to some major news outlet.


Jerry Boykin: Yes, what you bring up is a really important point Tim, and we need to understand, every morning the president gets a presidential daily brief that’s from the intelligence community. We don’t know what he knows; we don’t see what he sees. And there’s always a lot more to the story than what we as citizens of the nation that are not exposed to that level of information than what we see. Now, I think that the president is a man who does not want to lose a man or woman on foreign soil, and I respect him and I admire him for that. He talks about writing letters home, to inform a mom and a dad that their son or daughter’s been killed. Well, I’ve written those letters myself and it is the hardest thing you do. I mean, there’s nothing more difficult than sitting down and saying, what do I say to this mom and dad who just lost her son or daughter?


Tim: Wow.

 Strong Leaders

Jerry Boykin: So I understand the president’s concern there. But I will tell you this also when you come into the army, the Navy, the air force, the Marines, or the coast guard; because you have a brother that’s in the army.


Tim: I do.


Jerry Boykin: And you ask him, you accept that you are eventually there to fight this nation’s wars. You’re not there just to get an education or just to see exotic places. You’re there to fight the nation’s wars and soldiers accept that risk. So if you’ve never served, it’s hard to imagine ordering someone into combat where they might be killed, but that is what war is about. And that’s why it takes strong leaders, strong leaders like Donald Trump that recognize when they are left with no other choice but to commit our military. And as painful as it is to lose one of those precious soldiers out there somewhere, it has to be done at times to defend our nation and to defend our allies.

 Never Surrender

Tim: Yes, and it certainly seems like president Trump is someone who absolutely is working to defend America, right? Even the new slogan, “keep America great”, it seems like that’s his heart. And he does care so much about the men and women in armed service, and we really do rejoice in many situations that we have a president like Donald Trump for some of these tough decisions. As you mentioned, he’s getting information we don’t have, and so at this point, we’re going to have to wait and see, that he knows something maybe we don’t know in some of these scenarios. But General Boykin, thank you so much for sharing some of your insight with us. So, one of the books that you have, that I was very inspired was, “Never Surrender”. So if people want to learn more about your story, if they want to find some of this information, and what you’re involved in, where can they go to find that?


Jerry Boykin: Well, they can go to Amazon or they can go to my website. Amazon has “Never Surrender”, which is my autobiography, and then my website is kingdomwarriors, one word, and they can find it on my website as well.


Tim: Kingdom or find it on Amazon, Never Surrender is the story of General Jerry Boykin, General, thank you so much for being with us today.


Jerry Boykin: Thank you Inaudible [inaudible 17:23], good being with you.

 America’s Hidden Heroes

David: Hi, this is David Barton.


Tim: And this is Tim Barton and we want to let you know about a series that’s happening right now on TBN on Thursday nights. TBN is a Trinity Broadcasting Network, every Thursday night there’s a series that we filmed called America’s Hidden History and this season is called America’s Hidden Heroes. The reason is we highlight heroes from American history. For years we’ve been focusing on the forgotten history and heroes of the nation and now we have a TV show just highlighting some of those heroes.


David: These are inspiring stories about some of the greatest people maybe you’ve never heard about. We go on location, we go to the site, we show you where the events happened and it’s a story of folks like Bronco Charlotte and stagecoach Mary and Jedediah Smith and Robert Smalls and so many inspiring folks.


Tim: Now, this happens every Thursday night and the time is going to be different based on where you live. Either way, we think this is something that will so encourage and inspire you, and learning some of these great stories from America’s Hidden History.

 Values Voter Summit

Rick: Welcome back to WallBuilders Live, thanks for staying with us. That was Tim Barton and General Jerry Boykin, out at the Values Voter Summit. One of our live interviews we got to do during that weekend with so many great leaders from across the country. There are many more at our website right now at but we’re back in studio with David Barton, Tim Barton and myself Rick Green and guys, a great interview as always, General Boykin, one of our favorites, you mentioned his book at the beginning, Tim, Never Surrender, it tells his story. He’s also got some novels that he’s written. Just lots of great leadership material for people to be studying.

Three-Star General Speaks

David: It is great stuff and his perspective, you could hear the three-star general coming through as he was talking about what’s happening in Syria and Turkey, what’s happening when we deploy overseas, and the DMZ over in Korea. As he went through that, you’d certainly had the perspective that this guy knows what he’s talking about. And by the way, he was chief of intelligence with Pentagon and other things as well. He ran intelligence he held that as a political post under presidents as well, so he certainly knows. And by the way, he ran by it really quick. Tim asks him a question, says, [inaudible 19:16] Posse Comitatus, and there’s a whole lot of folks who’d said probably what? Posse Comitatus goes back to a law passed in 1876 at the end of reconstruction when federal troops who were in the South, making the South obey the constitution. The constitutional amendments we had that said arch labors in it, and by the way, former blacks now have civil rights and they get to vote.


And the South was saying, no, we have Jim Crow laws, and we’re going to keep that. Well, Posse Comitatus was a law passed as part of the compromise between Democrats and Republicans that said, okay, we’re pulling all federal troops out of the South and from here on out, we will not use federal troops to ever enforce domestic policy. And that’s why general said a governor could call somebody in for riots and called national guardian, but they can’t come in as federal troops, they would have to come in as state forces. So States can do that, but the federal government can’t, so that’s the limitation he was talking about.

 Muslims and Kurds

But even as he looked at Turkey and what’s happening there? I mean he points out that you’ve got Muslims and [inaudible 20:06] and Christians, all doing really well in that one corner. And so what’s happened now that the ceasefires in place; before the ceasefire was in place, Turkey started invading, trying to go after the Kurds or at least that’s what the media said. The intelligence we have on the ground said actually, the militias from Turkey were actually local militias and they were ISIS guys and they weren’t going to have the Kurds. They were going into Christian villages and killing Christians the same way they had done over in Iraq. And so the first person killed when the Turks started making the invasion was a Christian woman. They went in and started killing Christians.


So there is a lot of instability and as Tim pointed out and as General Boykin acknowledge there’s a lot of stuff and we don’t yet know that is going to come out in the media at some point in time. But he looks at what’s happening and approves of it generally and I thought the point he made is really good that having our U S troops deployed several places overseas actually helps us here at home. If you don’t have your troops deployed, you’re going to have another buildup of like the Nazis did or like the Japanese empire did. There’s nothing to deter enemies from making really big buildups by having us deployed in several places. We can avoid having the kind of big wars we’ve had in the past. So he had so much good insight on so many things going on right now. It’s always good to hear from general Boykin.

 Check us Out Online

Rick: Well fellows, we are out of time for today. Thank you, folks, for listening out there, be sure and visit our website today at and It’s an opportunity for you to get equipment inspired, a lot of great tools available to you there. Whether you take our constitution class, maybe even become a constitution coach right there in your community host a class at your church or your school or your community center. It’s a chance to get people educated. So cool to see people learning the things they didn’t learn in school. We say we didn’t teach civics well, that’s why we’re in the mess we’re in. Everybody says that, but what we’re doing now, if we’re getting people of all ages to actually study civics, it’s a great way for you to get people excited about making a difference in their community.


So check all of that out at or just go to Get the constitution class yourself; you can get constitutional live right there at the WallBuilders website. And then also check out that donate button and consider contributing to WallBuilders Live. It’s a way for you to become a partner of ours, as I mentioned at the beginning of the program and it helps you expand the program and allows us to get more people engaged and trained in making a difference. We sure appreciate you listening today. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.