Girl Athletes Being Pushed Aside By Boys Competing In Female Sports: All across the country boys are participating in girl’s high school athletics. In today’s episode, we have special guest Attorney Denise Harle who is representing girls who have worked very hard to become champions that are now being pushed aside by male athletes. Tune in now to learn more!

Air Date: 10/09/2019

Guest: Denise Harle

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture 


Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we”€™re talking about today”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture, always doing that from a Biblical, historical, and Constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker and President of WallBuilders, and my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator, national speaker, and author.  You can find out more about us at our website, That’s our radio site. There’s a list there of stations across the country where you can hear the program. There’s also archives, so if you’ve missed some programs in the last few weeks, or if you’re a new listener to WallBuilders Live, you can click on that archive section and actually go back and listen to some of the programs in previous weeks. 

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You get to be a part of it when you come alongside us with that donation. So please, consider that today. It’s right there at the website 

Transgender Boys Competing in Girls Sports

Later in the program we’ve got an attorney that’s representing some young ladies in high school athletics that have basically been pushed to the side by these guys that are coming over saying, “€œI’m a girl now,”€ and then competing in girl”€™s athletics. This madness is happening all across the country, and the girls that used to be the champions are have been working hard to be champions are being pushed aside and have been basically forgotten.


It really is interesting, because we’re looking really at small things, but they indicate a fundamental shift in the way the nation thinks—or at least parts of the nation thinks—because this would never have been an issue seven or eight years ago. We’re talking about something in the last two, three, four years, and it has gone like wildfire across the nation. Rather than many people standing up to say, “€œHave you guys lost your brains!?”€Â 

They’re like, “€œOh OK. Is that the way it is now?”€Â 

It’s more of an acquiescence than it is a craziness.


Yeah. It’s worth noting, as you pointed out, that this is in certain segments you see this more than others. 

Certainly I don’t think the majority of the nation is in favor of this, in fact I think most of the nation is probably ignorant to a lot of this happening, as most of the nation is ignorant to many things that are happening right now. 

So even this notion of acquiescence, I do think there are probably some people who have good hearts that don’t want to buck the system. You’ve seen people on social media, in public forums, who write whatever the venue is, if they take the wrong political position they get crucified. 

Equality in Value Does Not Mean Sameness

So you have good people saying, “€œOK, I don’t wanna hurt feelings, but I think internally the vast majority of people are recognizing this is kind of a ridiculous notion to say that biological males should competing as biological females and pretend like they’re exactly the same.”€Â 

We’re in favor of this notion of equality, but that’s when it comes to value. Like Lady Liberty, just as we believe in those being blind because that Justice shouldn’t be determined based on your gender, or ethnicity, or shape, or size. However, when it comes to some level of competition, to not identify biology, or gender, or male and female anymore, is ludicrous. Again I think the majority of America does agree with this. I think they just don’t know about it.


I think, in some ways, that may be right. But I think the ones that do know about it have been, amazingly, silent. We’re talking about track meets where people go to a girls track meet and find guys winning the races in the girls meet, and I’m not hearing the people at the races saying, “€œWhoa, we didn’t come here to see this!”€

I remember even lamenting the fact that when this first started happening a few years ago. We were begging for the girls who would get whipped to please go sue! Get this in court! So even the ones that know, it’s been fairly silent it seems like. 

No Pushback?


It would be interesting.

As you’re saying, it seems like it’d be interesting to know how much protest is actually happening there. Is it that the news media isn’t picking up on this? Maybe parents are furious, but the media doesn’t want to report on it because it doesn’t fit the narrative, it doesn’t fit the agenda. It would be very interesting to see where people are, because we do know a few people that have been in some of these situations and some of these scenarios and and there has been frustration. 

But a lot of these people are good people too, they’re not trying to hurt people’s feelings. They’re not trying to be offensive. They’re not trying to cause problems, but they recognize this shouldn’t be happening. So there are some places where you do see some pushback against this. I do wonder if maybe it’s happening more than we realize, again because the media just isn’t reporting on it, but there are specific situations where there has been some pushback. Sometimes we even see positive results because of the pushback.


Well, I think we’re starting to see it now. Even, as I mentioned a couple of years ago, lamented the fact that we couldn’t get plaintiffs in this. We now have Alliance Defending Freedom, who has two girls who are plaintiffs. They really go back to when this first started happening three years ago, and I remember in Connecticut, specifically that race. 

So Alliance Defending Freedom now has two girls from that race three years ago that are saying, “€œThat’s not right. We should not have lost out to guys.”€Â 

Alliance Defending Freedom is On the Case

It costs scholarships and other stuff for so many athletes to do that. So Denise Harley from Alliance Defending Freedom this coming on, and it”€™ll be an interesting conversation we’ll have with her today.


ADF of course comes to the aid of people that are being discriminated against or persecuted for their faith in all kinds of cases, and this is one of those unique ones that, when we used to hear about these examples, it was one or two, and it’s happening more and more across the country.

Thankfully ADF has stepped up to defend these girls out of Connecticut. We’re gonna hear that story and find out what’s happening on the federal front with this as well. Stay with us folks, we”€™ll be right back on WallBuilders Live.

Front Sight Training Course

Rick Greens here, from WallBuilders Live. What do Dennis Prager, Larry Elder, Ben Shapiro, Rick Green, Tim Barton, David Barton, have in common other than the fact that they’re conservative commentators that defend the Constitution?

They’re raving about Front Sight Firearms Training Institute. Go to my website right now at You can watch the video of Dennis Prager training at Front Sight, or Larry Elder, or Tim Barton and myself out there. It’s an opportunity for you to learn how to defend yourself and your family. It is a fantastic place to train. They train 30 to 40,000 people a year, and they’re just wonderful to work with. You can go with us. We’re headed back out.

We’re going to have a great time out there, and if you’re a supporter of WallBuilders, we’re going to treat you. If you’re a donor of WallBuilders, you”€™ll be able to go to this Front Sight class for free. It normally cost a thousand dollars, go to right now. You’ll see that it’s a thousand dollars to attend their two-day class. You are going to be able to go for free, if you’re a supporter of WallBuilders Live.

So, check out that information at and join us. We are going once a month for the next three months. You can pick one of those classes. All of our previous classes have filled up. Make sure that you get online today and get signed up. Whether you’ve never shot before, or you’ve shot your whole life, you will enjoy this class. You”€™ll enjoy the fellowship. We’ll be training on the range during the day and studying the Constitution at night. What a great combination. Check it out today at

American History

This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment in American history. In 1963 the United States Supreme Court decided that voluntary Bible reading could no longer be part of the school day. 

Founding Father Benjamin Rush, known as the father of public schools under the Constitution, pointedly warned that the Bible should be read in schools in preference to all other books. 

He specifically warned that if America ever ceased promoting Biblical principles in schools then we would waste so much time and money and punishing crimes. It takes so little pains to prevent them. 

He was right, we now have seven million Americans in prison on probation or on parole. The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world. Sadly, this was unnecessary, but is the result of no longer teaching the morals of the Bible in schools.

For more information about the Founding Fathers views on the positive impact of the Bible in schools go to

Welcome Denise Harley


Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on Wall Builders Live! Denise Harley is with us from Alliance Defending Freedom, Denise, thanks for your time.


Oh, I’m happy to talk to you Rick. Thanks for talking about this story.


Absolutely! We appreciate you coming on. It just seems like the takeover of female athletics by males. I don’t know how to describe this because I think some of them truly do think they’re transitioning, and then others are just doing it to be able to compete in female athletics. But anyway, the takeover of female athletics continues, and you guys are trying to bring some common sense to that. So thanks for your time to talk about this topic.


I”€™m happy to talk with you.


Tell us about these high school competitions where the guys were coming over and competing in the lady”€™s competitions. Are they are they are they allowing this all over the country now? Because I know I saw the one in Dallas last year, and I think now Florida it’s happening, is it just continuing to grow?


We’re aware of about 19 states that currently have policies that allow high school athletes to compete based on their gender identity instead of their biological sex. The first case that we became aware of was on behalf of our three clients in Connecticut. Three female high school track athletes who suddenly became deprived of opportunities to win and compete on a level playing field when two boys who identified as transgender began competing in the girl”€™s division.


And this was three years ago.

The Story of Lena and Elaina


That’s right, two to three years ago is when it first started. It’s happened for two seasons now, and after making attempts to resolve it peacefully through the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference and through the school administration, we were not able to do so. So what we did this summer is to take the step of filing a Title 9 complaint with the federal government.


Tell us about Lena and Elaina. These are your two clients, right?


That’s right. Selena and Elaina are excellent athletes. They are driven and passionate about running, they sweat, they get up early in the morning, they juggle their homework, and running is really their life. They’ve they’ve spent years crafting their practice of running and they’re very good at it. Unfortunately, boys are always going to have a physical advantage over girls, and that’s the reason we have women’s sports. A boy”€™s believe about his gender doesn’t cancel out those physical advantages. So what happened when two males began competing in the girls division was that Elaina and Selena were no longer able to compete on a level playing field and achieve the things that they’ve been working so hard to achieve.


And they had been not just pretty good, they had been champions. I mean, they’ve been winning.


That’s right. But instead these two boys ended up taking 15 state titles that had previously been held by girls.


Wait a minute, two guys got 15 different state titles in women’s divisions? 

Unfair Advantage


That’s right. In a matter of two seasons they took records that have been held, that have been set over a period of about 20 years. Just that quickly. And that just goes to show what we already know from biology and common sense which is that boys and girls are different, and boys have physical advantages over girls.


I know it’s New England, and I know it’s Connecticut, but are the women’s groups not just freaking out over this and standing up and saying this is wrong?


We really wish we were hearing more from women’s rights groups, because frankly this sort of policy reverses about 50 years of progress and advances that women have made under Title 9 in educational opportunity and athletic opportunities. For example, with Selena and Elaina, this has interfered with their ability to be seen by college recruiters and scouts because it’s prevented them from advancing to the next round in certain situations. 

Unfortunately what we’ve heard so far from the ACLU is that they have come out in support of the biological males who identify as transgender, and and say that what we are asking for would actually discriminate against transgender girls. So they’re sort of raising a reverse discrimination claim, which again defies common sense and the whole purpose of Title 9.

Where Are the Feminists During This?


They’re defending the guys instead of the girls, is really what they’re doing. They’re picking these guys that are transitioning over the girls. I don’t know that you can describe this, but I can’t imagine what that feels like for Selena, and Elaina, and all the other girls in these competitions across the country that are basically being pushed to the side and being told, “€œHey, you just don’t worry about it. We’re not out to defend you, were defending these guys.”€


Selena has shared how demoralizing it is for them at the beginning of the race to know before they even start what the outcome is going to be. For every boy on the podium, that’s one fewer girl on the podium. This could potentially mean girls are going to be sidelined in their own sport. It is defeating, it’s demoralizing, and it’s unfair.


Well, it looks like—and I can”€™t believe I”€™m saying this—the federal government is actually helping, maybe, in investigating this situation. So tell us what they’re doing. How are they responding to this?


We filed a Title 9 complaint with the Office of Civil Rights within the Department of Education. We did that in June, and just a few weeks later we were very pleased to hear that the federal government would be launching an investigation into Connecticut’s policies. That actually is a great sign, because the federal government does not always investigate and you don’t really have a sense of the timeline. But we were happy to hear that they are acting quickly, and we do feel confident just based on the plain wording of Title 9 and its purpose that the federal government is going to find that this policy violates Title 9 and that it needs to be changed.

The Feds Stepping in to Help


Excellent! I’m assuming if they do that it’s not just the Connecticut situation this would impact, but girls all over there. This would be defending girls all over the country in women’s sports.


This would send a message to all the other states that have these unfair policies, or that are considering these unfair policies, and truly we hope that just the fact of the investigation would be enough for Connecticut to come to its senses and correct this, because it’s causing a lot of problems for girls and it’s it’s stealing their opportunities and their and their abilities to chase their dreams.


Yeah, no doubt. How can we follow this case with you? 


You can follow this case, and all of our cases, at We have a case page for this one, for the Title 9 Connecticut case, and you can follow along with all of the developments, and you can also sign up for our e-mails there. 

You also donate to ADF legal because the wonderful thing about our work is that we get to defend all of our clients for free. We never charge them a dime, because of our fantastic supporters who are helping support our mission. So we love being able to do these legal services for free and to fight for freedom and fairness.


And Denise, I don’t want to gloss over that at all. That is a huge, huge factor. Most people in it over these situations feel helpless. They feel like they have nowhere to turn, that they can’t afford an attorney to go do this. The fact that y’all are so often stepping in and saying, “€œWe’ve got your back. We will defend you, and it’s not going to cost you a dime.”€Â 

Find Out More at

I say to you, it’s a game changer and has been a game changer for years now because y’all have been able to do that. We’ve had so many victories because of that. That doesn’t happen without the donors out there, they give the waiver everything from the small donations of a few dollars here and there to the major donations. 

So I agree with you 100% on that, and I want to emphasize that strongly encourage folks out there to donate and help make this possible. We’re thankful for you, Denise, thankful for ADF, thankful that y’all step up in these situations and that you’ve been able to take you know basically take on the popular culture of the time and defend folks like Selena and Alaina, and so many other young ladies out there, that are just being pushed aside by these guys.

So thank you for what you’re doing. We’re gonna be following this case, and would you please update us and come back on as there are developments? 


Absolutely. Thanks so much for sharing the story, Rick. 


Absolutely! Stay with us folks. We”€™ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

America”€™s Hidden History


Hi, this is David Barton.


And, this is Tim Barton, and we want to let you know about a series that’s happening right now on TBN on Thursday night. TBN is the Trinity Broadcasting Network. Every Thursday night, there’s a series that we’ve filmed called America’s Hidden History.

And, this season is called “€œAmerica’s Hidden Heroes.”€ The reason is, we highlight heroes from American history. For years we’ve been focusing on the forgotten history and heros of the nation.

And now, we have a TV show just highlighting some of those heroes.


These are inspiring stories about some of the greatest people maybe you’ve never heard about. We go on location to the sites and show you where the events happened. It’s the stories of folks like Bronco Charlie, Stagecoach Mary, Jedediah Smith, Robert Smalls, and so many inspiring folks.


Now, this happens every Thursday night, and the time is gonna be different based on where you live. Either way, we think this is something that will so encourage and inspire you in learning some of these great stories for America’s Hidden History.

Women’s Sports are for Women, Not Boys


Welcome back to WallBuilders Live! We’re back with David and Tim Barton. Thanks again to Denise Harley and ADF for their work on this case.

David, Tim, as you know, I our coach a lot of little league, and I loved it in like 8, 9, 10 year olds when I had these girls and boys playing together, and I loved it when I had these girl pitchers that were outstanding and they’d strike out the boys and the boys would cry. 

That was always really fun for me as a coach. 

But that was eight 9 to 10 years old, before the athletic differences really start showing up in a big way like they do in high school. I want to come to the defense of these girls that are literally being pushed aside, and I’m just so thankful that we’ve got legal beagles out there that are doing exactly that.


Well I am amazed that in only three years from when these girls had this experience, now 19 states allow this.

That in itself is just astounding to me. Then you take this whole aspect—and I love what Denise said—but in so many ways, she acknowledged the truth that the people have been silent about for years, but she said, “€œLook, the reason we have women’s sports is because boys are always going to have a physical advantage over girls.”€Â 

Now that’s always been known but we’ve ignored that in the military.

Ignoring Reality for Agenda


How dare you say something factually accurate. How dare you. 


But you make that statement and we’ve been denying for years, and so we’re trying to but women and a special forces as Rangers, and as hand-to-hand combat experts, and it’s just not going to work. And that’s what we’re seeing in sports.


And even as you point out that we are trying to do this. No! We’re not trying to do this. You see people promoting this, we are the ones who know it’s ridiculous, but this is where so often you look at culture and you think this is just where culture is. There are people—and we’ve talked about this for years—people are promoting agenda over reality, and people are denying reality to favor their agenda. 

We see these attacks on so many levels. 

We see the sex, and education, and business, and medicine, and climate science, and all these things that are happening. People are more concerned with their agenda than they are with reality. And when reality meets with their world, with the natural consequences of what they are promoting, they get frustrated. 

Or in this situation when there are girls who are getting frustrated saying, “€œI shouldn’t be having to try to race and win against boys.”€Â 

Then at times they want to punish the girls for not liking the situation they were put in. This is where you’d want to go, “€œNow wait a second, where’s the women’s rights? Where right feminists in this situation?”€Â 

This is where there’s a great irony, when you start segmenting population and say, “€œWe have to promote one group over another.”€Â 

Individual Rights, not Group Rights

Eventually there are going to be groups that oppose your groups because now it’s not Americans, it’s not American rights, it’s not human rights, it’s not the Bill of Rights. Now it’s group rights. And when one group begins to trample the rights of another, that’s when you have problems. 

This is now, right back to the Founding Fathers, they understood, “€œNope. We recognize that all humans have a God given rights and therefore the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, don’t protect group rights, it protects individual rights because we are all people created in the image of God. We have unalienable rights, every single one of us.”€Â 

But this is where there is some level of irony, because when you start breaking down in the groups, and there are groups that are going to get trampled, you traditionally have seen feminist, these people stand up and defend their groups, now they’re interestingly or strangely silent when it seems like this is when they should be speaking up.


You’re telling about how they stand up and defend their groups. I’m going to go back to something they said that I’m going to take exception to, because she said, “€œWe know from biology and common sense that boys and girls are different, and that boys have physical advantage.”€Â 

So—and this is facetious I’m being sarcastic here—but she said we know from biology and common sense. Well, if you knew from common sense, that would require common sense. When’s the last time we’ve seen that coming out of government situations? We’re not seeing common sense out of D.C., we haven’t seen it out of most state capitals in a long time, so I’m not sure we can acknowledge common sense. 

Common Sense and Biology?

But then she says biology. Well, if we really believed in biology we wouldn’t be doing things like homosexuality and abortions, because biology is really clear about the consequences of homosexuality. It’s really clear that abortions are killing a human being. We wouldn’t be having these cultural debates if we believed in biology and common sense.


Well, we certainly wouldn’t be promoting it, right? 

Because obviously if you look at abortion, that is a taking of an unborn child, which unquestionably that— when people argue the fetus is tissue—this is not confusing when you start looking at the science we have now, with the imaging and things. 

Now, people might feel differently about the homosexuality issue, “€œNow wait a second, this is adults making choices.”€Â 

Well, we’re not always necessarily against even adults making choices, but certainly we’re against the promoting of bad choices being made. This is where we could talk about other adults who choose to smoke cigarettes, or we could talk about adults who choose to go get drunk. We don’t support that behavior, we will not promote that behavior, but we do recognize that you have a right to make bad decisions. 

However, once you begin making decisions that your decisions are now violating someone else’s inalienable rights, now this is no longer you having the freedom to make the choices you want, now your choices are directly impacting those around you. Therefore, as individuals in society who are being impacted by your choices, we have the right to say something. 

Don”€™t Pretend Boys and Girls Are the Same

This is where, even in this situation, we’re so grateful for people like ADF, one of those organizations that, for free, will defend the rights of individuals in this situation, defending the rights of these girls who are just trying to compete the way God made them, as girls, against other biological females, against other girls, and really society has got to come back to enough common sense to say, “€œLook, let’s let right in this. In this specific sport girls compete against girls.”€Â 

Now, if you want to make co-ed sports and do other things, fine. Make a separate category. But don’t pretend like all boys and all girls are the same.


And Tim, I think you said it at the beginning of the program. Most people, when they’re hit with this and they’re told what’s actually happening, their gut reaction is right. They’re like, “€œWait a minute, that’s that’s just not right. It’s not fair.”€Â 

Most people come down on the right side of this because of what you just said, which is common sense. It just it just makes sense. 

So, thankfully, we’ve got ADF and others out there fighting for that common sense position and overcoming the madness that’s that’s taking place out there. We really want to thank Denise Harley and ADF for what they do. Thank her for her time coming on the program today, and certainly for defending these gals and the impact this is going to have for young ladies all across the country competed in sports that have been given an unfair disadvantage because of this madness. 

Defending Female Sports and More with WallBuilders Live

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Thanks for listening today. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.