Governor Told Attending Bible Study Is Unconstitutional: It seems as though so many topics that used to be talked about commonly are now becoming “controversial.” It seems like when one side thinks something is acceptable, by default, the other side has to be against it, even if just a few years back everyone had the same views. Well, religious liberty happens to be one of those topics that has fallen into the “controversial” category. So, what is truth and what is constitutional? Tune in now to find out!

Air Date: 10/01/2019

Guest: Marc Nuttle

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture 

RICK:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we’re talking about today’s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture, always doing that from a Biblical, historical, and Constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker and President of WallBuilders, and my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator, national speaker, and author.

I wanted to let you know about Constitution Alive! It gives a chance to study the Constitution in your home and church. To be a part of that, go to ConstitutionCoach.com where you can sign up to be one of our hosts.

We will train you on how to do that so you can start inviting people together to study the roots of our nation and learn how to be good citizens.

Biblical, Historical, Constitutional Perspective

Our program is all about looking at issues from that biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. When you do that: actually look into history and identify what works and what doesn’t; or look at the Bible and identify what the Bible says is the right position on an issue; and look at the Constitution and say, “Wait; what was the founding formula for what would work in a society,” and, “What are the actual rules by which we’re supposed to be playing this game we call ‘society’ and ‘citizenship;’” when you do those three things, it is virtually impossible to come to the wrong conclusion on any issue of the day.

You’re going to find what works and what’s best for your community, state and nation. So, that’s what we do here WallBuilders. We look at all of those issues of the day.

It may be a political issue, something that’s affecting entertainment, or some other area the culture; but we always view it from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

What Can a Listener Do?

We appreciate you being a listener of WallBuilders Live! And, as a listener, we’re also going to ask you to be a supporting listener. We’re one of those you hear about all the time: listener-supported programs.

I usually just let that kind of go in one ear and out the other, that part of the beginning of a program or end of a program. Now that I do one of those programs, I realize how important it is to pause for a moment and find out What is a listener-supported program? It is a program that is supported by its listeners.

Well, that’s you. That’s me. We’re the ones that make this possible.

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Thanks so much for doing that.

All right, guys. Marc Nuttle will be with us a little later in the program. I was thinking about how many good judges we’ve gotten on the bench during these Trump years.

Judges and Religious Liberty

We seem to have a lot of religious liberty victories. And, I think maybe the left is kicking back as hard as they can. They’re not just going to lay down but are going to continue to fight.

And, that’s why it’s so important for us to stay in the fight and not get lackadaisical thinking Oh, we’ve got a good president now who’s with us on religious liberty. We don’t worry about this stuff.

TIM:

We also live in a culture where things that did not used to be that controversial, have become incredibly controversial over the last decade, because now if one side thinks something is acceptable, well, by default the other side has to be against it, even if just a few years ago they were ok with it. And, this is just very telling of the climate we live in.

So, Rick, as you mentioned, even with religious liberty and how many judges President Trump has been able to appoint who have been confirmed by the Senate. And, in all the positive things we’ve had, so many Good News Friday articles that we have shared about some of this kind of stuff happening, but the bottom line is, it’s not just even about pushback against Trump’s judges I don’t think. You guys can obviously offer your insight and correct me if you think I’m wrong.

The Current Political Climate

But, I think it’s anything that the other side thinks is acceptable–and I’m saying “the other side” in the sense that it doesn’t matter Republican or Democrat anymore, if it’s  liberal or conservative. If one side thinks something’s okay, by default the other side has to be against it is just kind of the current climate that I see happening around us.

RICK:

Yeah, I think you’re right, Tim, because it just seems like that’s why we can’t even seem to sit down to talk about these topics. It’s like whatever your position is–if you’re  from the conservative side of the aisle, the left is going to be against it, knee-jerk reaction, even if it’s a good thing. And, I’d say in some cases, it goes the other way too.

When the left is for it, we have a hard time saying, “Hey, props; we’re with you on that one,” and that’s part of what we need to be better at. But, definitely, it’s a shouting match more often than it is a Hey, come let us reason together.

DAVID:

Well, when you take what we’re going to look at today, a situation where that the governor of Oklahoma has been asked to be at a church. And, you’ve got an anti-religious group out of Wisconsin that’s raising a ruckus over it. In some ways, I don’t think it’s about whether they win or lose in the courts, because even in the Obama years, these guys–I do not recall them winning a single case in the court.

What they did was intimidated folks and school board attorneys to say, “Oh my gosh; we’ve got to stop this activity before we get sued.” And so, there were so much of self-censoring on our side. We stopped ourselves, rather than, “Oh my gosh; they might sue.”

They Can Sue You for Anything

Well, as I pointed out before, they can sue you because you wear cowboy boots or a black belt with brown brown shoes. I mean, they can sue you for anything. So, they really were not winning in court.

And, in a case like this, they’re going to put press out. Their guys are going to carry it, guys like Huffington Post, whoever it is, is going to say, “Oh, they’ve gone after the governor of Oklahoma because he’s doing something religious in his official capacity.” Well, it doesn’t matter whether they win or not; they get their media out there for them.

That helps them raise money and keeps their guys fired up. It’s red meat for them. But, it really is a ridiculous situation.

And, it is so polarized in so many ways because it keeps their guys all stirred up to be really intolerant and go after religion everywhere they see it, even when they don’t win the cases.

TIM:

Well, guys, one of the things that’s also interesting–as on this show we always try to look at the biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective–looking at the historical perspective, if you’re going to be upset over a governor being part of a religious activity, attending a religious activity, or speaking to a religious group, you have to be upset with almost every political leader in the founding era.

DAVID:

Good point.

Embedded in the History of Our Nation

TIM:

Because, this is so much part of the history of our nation. One of the things we have at WallBuilders in our very large collection of historic documents, are prayer proclamations from governors. We own somewhere over 800 prayer proclamations, original prayer proclamations, from governors in early America.

And, by 1815, there were 1400 government prayer proclamations, whether it be from a Continental Congress, a governor, the president,  or whatever the group is. These guys were calling on the people around and under them to pray. Further, as they’re doing this, they would attend churches and religious meetings.

So, the history of a government official being involved in a religious activity or speaking to a group of religious people is absolutely throughout the history of our nation, even from the guys that gave us the Constitution. So, the notion that we’re going to say, “This is unconstitutional–” and I understand we can make the argument: based on the modern interpretation, this could be construed as something unconstitutional, although certainly not according to original intent.

And, even under the modern craziness of the Court, I don’t think you could even win this in modern courts, based on what’s happening. But, this is just kind of where we are.

Going After Governor Kevin Stitt

DAVID:

But, because it’s out there, is news now, and they’re going after Governor Kevin Stitt of Oklahoma, a new Governor, we thought it’d be fun to have Marc Nuttle on. Marc was head of the transition team for Governor Stitt. And, by the way, Marc has quite a pedigree himself.

I think he’s been adviser to four different presidents. And, it goes back to Reagan. Plus, there’s all sorts of political stuff that he’s done at some of the highest levels.

So, he was in charge of the transition team. But, he’s also very strong, biblical Christian. So, Marc Nuttle will be able to help us on this and what’s going on in Oklahoma right now.

RICK:

Marc Nuttle, our special guest today. So, stay with us. We’ll be right back on WallBuilders Live!

Moment From American History

This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. American Patriot Paul Revere road to alert Americans of the impending arrival of the British. But, he also sought patriot leader Samuel Adams and John Hancock to warn them that the British were seeking their execution.

Adams and Hancock were staying with the Reverend Jonas Clark in Lexington. When they asked Pastor Clark if his church was ready for the approaching British he replied, “I’ve trained them for this very hour. They will fight and, if need be, die under the shadow of the house of God.”

Later that morning 70 men from his church, and several hundred British in the first battle of the War for Independence. As Pastor Clark affirmed, “The militia that morning were the same who filled the pews of the church meeting house on the Sunday morning before.”

The American church was regularly at the forefront of the fight for liberty. For more information on this pastor and other Colonial Patriots go to WallBuilders.com.

Welcome Marc Nuttle

RICK:

Welcome back thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live! Marc Nuttle is with us. Marc, good to have you, sir.

Thanks for coming on.

MARC:

Oh, my pleasure.

RICK:

You’ve seen it all at the federal and state level both: working for Reagan, being involved in campaigns across the country, and heading up the transition team for your governor there in Oklahoma. Now, he’s being threatened with violating this supposed “Separation of Church and State” if he speaks at a men’s prayer breakfast.

I would expect this in Massachusetts or California. Marc, what’s going on in Oklahoma?

MARC:

Well, of course the group’s not from Oklahoma. They are the groups out of Wisconsin or someplace.

RICK:

Oh, it’s Freedom From Religion Foundation, then.

MARC:

Yes, they’re not an Oklahoma group.

RICK:

Yeah.

Liberal Groups Trying to Eliminate Religion in Society

MARC:

Well, what’s going on is ridiculous. Let’s make sure we understand what this is. These are liberal groups trying to eliminate religion in society, basically, and put us in a corner someplace as is if we have no right to the public marketplace.

RICK:

True.

MARC:

But, what’s really happening here is that Kevin Stitt is a new, fresh face on the American political scene: a conservative who is a self-defined, unabashed, evangelical Christian who believes in proper structure of government to allow freedom of religion. Now, they want to make sure, these national groups who have 30,000 members nationwide–who knows how many they in Oklahoma.

But, they’re trying to make sure that this idea, that there is a place for the Christian faith in government structure, does not get out of the borders of Oklahoma. So, they hound him on every little thing. It seems they can’t keep them in a box.

RICK:

Yeah.

MARC:

That’s what’s going on. This isn’t about Oh my gosh, are we are violating “Separation of Church and State?” Well, let’s understand what happened here.

He is invited by a church to speak to a conference and accepts. This is not a government-sanctioned conference. This isn’t anything paid for by the state.

It is not at the State Capitol, done on public grounds, or even in a public building. This is the governor of the state of Oklahoma answering a request to speak to a Christian conference. Now, they’re saying that he was invited or advertised as the governor.

Well, he is the governor. Everybody knows that Kevin Stitt is the governor. There’s nothing in the law that says he has to make sure that when he speaks, nobody thinks he’s the governor.

They Are Afraid

Now, if he was paid for with public funds and he sponsors as an official state action–but, that’s not what’s happened here. This is a ridiculous claim, for no other reason than to try to intimidate this governor and make sure that that if he does anything–what they’re worried about is that it will actually influence other states, showing that it’s okay to be bold and not be afraid of your faith.

That’s what’s going on.

RICK:

My guess is, based on his demeanor, that he’s not going to be intimidated but is going to live out his constitutional rights, just like you and I would.

MARC:

Yes, {he will} absolutely not {be intimidated}. You don’t have to park your faith at the door to be involved in government. You can be in an agency, serve on boards and commissions, and be Christian in your mentality and perspective.

There’s nothing wrong with that, for Heaven’s sakes. As you know, the words “Separation of Church and State” don’t exist in the Constitution. That’s come down from Supreme Court dictum.

The Myth of “Separation”

“Freedom of religion” is that the State doesn’t establish a religion. It doesn’t say that we have to abandon our religion to serve in government. And, listen.

When he ran for office, everybody knew where he was coming from. There was never any subterfuge of any kind whatsoever about who he was or what he stood for. Now, he was careful about that and hasn’t claimed that he’s trying to do anything with the State to advance Christianity.

But, he’s not been, at any time, apologetic on what he believes. And, he won in a surprising election against a strong field. In fact, Rick, I’ve been involved in Oklahoma politics for 40 years.

I think it was a record plurality, a record majority. I’m pretty sure that’s right: both arithmetically and percent, of what he won by. So, it’s a mandate.

Oklahoma is a conservative state. But, there’s no doubt. His approval rating right now is over 90 percent.

The last number I saw was 92.

RICK:

Wow.

MARC:

These guys claim, “Well, 30 percent of the state is not Christian.” Well, they don’t know that. That’s not a good number, by the way.

But, certainly nobody’s offended by this yet, except these out-of-state people who do not want him to influence anybody else in the country outside Oklahoma.

This is NOT Coming From Local Folks

RICK:

Well, and that’s such an important point that you made, even in the beginning of our interview here: this is not coming from local folks in Oklahoma. This is typical Freedom From Religion Foundation MO. They come into communities across the country, in this in this case an entire state.

They come into communities across the country to drum up this supposed opposition to faith in the public square, when actually, they’re coming from outside that community. We used to have kind of a concept that allowed communities to live and let live. I, as a Texan, wouldn’t run over to California and tell them, “Hey, you guys need to do it our way.”

And, we don’t want them coming over here and telling us that. But, that’s kind of what’s happening here in a way.

MARC:

Oh, they’re absolutely afraid that the truth will catch on.

RICK:

Yeah.

MARC:

And, I’m being pretty bold here in my own comments. But, the point is that there is nothing in the Constitution of the United States or our State Constitution that says that you have to park your religion at the door when you enter that capitol. It is who you are as a person and part of your decision-making process.

You’re respectful of all religions and respectful of all faiths. That’s what the state legislature is for and the branches of government. It all works.

But, just trying to say, “You have to eliminate, restrict, and abandon your religion,” is absolute nonsense.

As Un-American as You Can Get

RICK:

Yes, nonsense and as un-American as you can get. Certainly, governors gave us our freedom and founding documents and started the country when they were governors of, for instance, Massachusetts. John Hancock, Sam Adams, and others in their official capacity, called the State to prayer, fasting, humiliation, and all these things.

So, I think Kevin’s  certainly got a great track record to follow here, from previous governors. And you let him know we’re proud of him and thrilled to have a governor like that representing Oklahoma. I think what you said is exactly right.

We’re hoping it does catch on and that others around the country are not intimidated, but instead, will live out their faith and set that example.

MARC:

Well, I will pass it on. And, the fact is, you guys are doing a good job with your with your show. And, the work that you and David Barton do in regards to what the law is, what our rights are, what is acceptable, and what our obligation is, that’s all so important.

Further, we’ll continue to do everything we can to defend him and that principle.

RICK:

Keep it up. Keep it up, brother. Well, God bless you, man.

Appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on the program. Let’s do it again.

MARC:

I’d love to, and thank you. Have a great day.

RICK:

That’s Marc Nuttle, folks. Stay with us. We’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Pastors-Only Briefing Trip

Tim:

Hi, this is Tim Barton with WallBuilders and I want to encourage all the pastors out there with a unique opportunity that we’re presenting it WallBuilders. We’re doing a special tour just for pastors that you can come and learn more about the spiritual heritage of our nation. Not just seeing the sights but understanding the significance of what they are and what they represent.

We get to go to the Capitol at night.  And, we get to see the spiritual heritage of our Founding Fathers, of who we are as a nation, where we came from. We bring in congressman that will tell you about current legislation, about our religious liberties  and freedom, and what’s going on in Washington, D.C.

If you’re a pastor or if you want to recommend your pastor for this trip, you can go to our website at www.WallBuilders.com. And, there’s a link that’s for scheduling.  If you click on that link there’s a section for pastor’s briefing. There’s more information about the dates, when it’s going, and how it’s going to happen. If you want to know more about our nation, our religious liberties, our freedom, our spiritual heritage, this is a trip you want to be a part of.

Craziness

RICK:

We’re back here on a WallBuilders Live! I’m with David and Tim Barton.Thanks for staying with us.

We appreciate Marc Nuttle for joining us today. Guys, he’s right; this is crazy.

This response is it just lunacy: that we would say that a governor can’t show up and speak to a men’s Bible study.

Tim, you nailed it at the beginning of the program when you said, “This is the kind of stuff that nobody would have objected to even a few short years ago.” I mean, it hasn’t been that long ago that this was perfectly normal. Everybody understood it was constitutional.

And, nobody would have thought Hey we’re going to use the government to stop someone from going in and being a part of a Bible study or any other kind of group like that.

TIM:

Well, even one of things Marc pointed out, is not only did they not want him to go, but they said, “If he goes, you can’t tell anybody he’s the governor.” This is so ridiculous.

DAVID:

Yeah.

TIM:

Like, he’s got to go incognito and probably wear some kind of special outfit, right? “Show up as somebody else, that way you don’t know who he is;” this is how ridiculous we have gotten in culture.

Governors Have to Go Incognito?

DAVID:

And, think about it because, Tim, you just made the point. But, as Marc pointed out, he won by the largest margin of any governor in the modern era in Oklahoma. And, he had ads that ran for months; his face is everywhere.

So, you can’t say that he’s governor. I wonder how many places he goes in Oklahoma where people don’t know his governor. That’s a face you saw everywhere.

TIM:

Right. With his approval rate, people are probably familiar with who he is, based on how much they are approving of what he does. And, guys, we’ve talked about the Freedom From Religion Foundation for years on this program and their attacks on what is very constitutional behavior. What is moral and good behavior, acts that have been done in the history of our nation, really since its inception–

And, this is what we’ve often referred to as just “the heckler’s veto.” There’s somebody out there going, “I don’t like this, and because I don’t like it, we don’t want you to do this.” Dad, you mentioned they’re not even gonna win in these cases they’re taking up because they don’t have the standing and they’re constitutionally wrong because he has the freedom of speech.

We didn’t even include his freedom of religion, or the freedom of association he has. I mean, there’s a whole lot of protection for him in the First Amendment. Yet, they’re just offended by what he’s doing; therefore,

they don’t want him to do it.

DAVID:

Well, I’m going to go further even than what Marc did, because Marc said, “Look. This is a public event, and if it were sponsored with state funds, okay.” But, I would say, “Even if it was sponsors state funds, Stitt still has the right to share his faith publicly.

We have inaugurations that happen all the time and have prayer services, religious services, et cetera. That’s done with state funds. And, the governor does all sorts of religious activities.

This is not a problem, even if it were done with state funds, for him to share his faith.

It’s Constitutional

TIM:

Which is also worth noting. Rick, one of the things that you said that I 100 percent agree with in sentiment in this interview with Marc, is that, “Hey, we don’t want anybody in Wisconsin telling us down here what we can or can’t do.” I 100 percent agree with that. But, this isn’t even about one state telling another state what they can or can’t do, because the Freedom From Religion Foundation is not from Oklahoma, right?

They’re up in somewhere in the northern Yankee land, Wisconsin, right? But, in the midst of this, it’s not even about somebody from one state telling another state what they can or can’t do. This is about somebody telling you that you can’t do something that’s constitutional.

So now, it doesn’t even matter what state you’re from. You don’t have the authority to say, “You can’t do this,” because it’s constitutional.

Governors Don’t Lose Their Rights

DAVID:

Yeah, this is this is a Freedom From Religion Foundation saying, “Governor Stitt, you do not have the First Amendment right to speech, religion, or to association. You can’t associate yourself with a Bible study, say anything about your faith, and you can’t speak if it’s religious.” Now, wait a minute.

As Tim said, I don’t care what state you’re from, I’ve got a constitutional right to do those three things. And, just because I’m governor, does not mean I lose that right.

RICK:

All right; so, whatever state you’re in, you’ve got that same constitutional right to freedom of religion. So, even if they tell this to a governor in Wisconsin or anywhere across the country, Freedom From Religion Foundation is wrong.

Stay with us. We’ll be right back on WallBuilders Live!

Constitution Alive!

Have you ever wanted to learn more about the United States Constitution but just felt like, man, the classes are boring or it’s just that old language from 200 years ago or I don’t know where to start? People want to know. But, it gets frustrating because you don’t know where to look for truth about the Constitution either.

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We call it the QuickStart guide to the Constitution because in just a few hours through these videos you will learn the Citizen’s Guide to America’s Constitution.  You’ll learn what you need to do to help save our Constitutional Republic. It’s fun! It’s entertaining! And, it’s going to inspire you to do your part to preserve freedom for future generations. It’s called Constitution Alive with David Barton and Rick Green. You can find out more information on our website now at WallBuilders.com.

Freedom from Religion Foundation

RICK:

We’re back here on WallBuilders Live! Thanks for staying with us. David and Tim, we were just talking about how this affects people nationally. Of course, Freedom from Religion does this all over the country.

They’ve done it to us. This group has come into Texas and filed suits against communities for doing different things. Now, we used to call it “a heckler’s veto.”

That person walking by can say–I doubt any of those guys from Freedom From Religion Foundation were gonna show up at this men’s Bible study so that they could be offended.

DAVID:

Well, they have to be vicariously offended for everyone else if they can’t be there. “Certainly somebody somewhere in America is going to be offended over this; so, we’ve got to represent those, even though we don’t know for sure.”

It is crazy. And, I really like what Marc said. He said, “These guys approach it as if religious people have no right to the marketplace.”

And, that really is the way they’re acting. If you take your faith into public, then they’re going to come after you. And, Marc made a big deal of there only being 30,000 of these guys across the whole nation.

They Have No Constitutional Basis

Yeah, that’s a small amount, granted. If they had a constitutional basis for their argument, I don’t care if it’s just one person. But, they don’t have a constitutional basis.

Tim was pointing out, this is something protected by the Constitution. And, they can’t take the religious marketplace away from the rest of us just because they don’t like it.

TIM:

And, this is something that you could point to. There have been some federal judges who have said that this kind of stuff should not happen. Although, those federal judges always get overturned by higher courts, by the Supreme Court, because you do have people that are in political positions who are very much motivated by their political agenda, not by what is constitutional, which is why they get overturned when they have these unconstitutional rulings.

So, Freedom From Religion Foundation can be offended and say, “No, we found a judge who says you’re wrong.” That doesn’t mean that judge’s opinions are gonna stand, because even if that judge said that, it’s not constitutional.

The Heckler’s Veto

DAVID:

Well, the Freedom From Religion Foundation is working on cases that are about 20 years old, because about 20 years ago, the Court did take the position that the heckler’s veto is okay.

I mean, go back to a case like Lee versus Weisman. That’s a case I vividly remember because I was involved in it. And, that’s where the Court came out and said, “Well, we have ‘classes of religion test.’”

If you’re from a smaller group, like atheist or whatever, we’re going to give you more constitutional protection than Christians who are in a much bigger group.” No, no, no. The Constitution protects everybody equally, regardless of the group you’re with.

And so, they’re still working on that premise of 20 years ago, which, as Tim pointed out, is just not where we are today. The courts, over the last eight to 10 years, have gotten rid of that heckler’s veto. And, you now have to have constitutional standing.

You have to show injury and fact. Just the fact you’re offended is not enough to do it anymore. And, that’s really good, because who cares if you’re offended at the Constitution.

If it gives me a guaranteed right, I have that right whether you like it or not.

Governor Told Attending Bible Study Unconstitutional

RICK:

Well, we’re out of time for today, folks. We sure appreciate you listening. Thanks to Marc Nuttle for joining us on today’s program here on WallBuilders Live!

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