Homeschool Court Cases Like Germany Happening In America?

Homeschool Court Cases Like Germany Happening In America?: Alliance Defending Freedom is working to secure inalienable rights not only here in America, but abroad as well! A recent case on homeschooling in Germany could affect us here or indicate where America is heading. Tune in now to find out more!

Air Date:Â 01/30/2019

Guest: Mike Farris

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton

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Transcription note: Â As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture

Rick:

You”ve found your way to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we”re talking about the hottest topics in the country, but we”re looking at them from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

I always open the program saying “the hottest topics in the country”, but sometimes we go outside the country because sometimes the impact in other nations can have an impact right here in the U.S. as well. But all of these issues– and today’s program is going to do that– all of these issues of looking at that biblical, historical, constitutional, perspective is so important because it helps you to determine – what’s the right position on this? How do we look back in history and say what has worked? What hasn’t worked? How do we learn from those experiences?

How do we look at the Bible and actually apply it to our lives? Not not just read it, not just memorize scripture, but actually apply it to what’s happening in our families, our communities, our nation. And then how do we look at the Constitution and apply it correctly. There’s so many different opinions out there today.

We here at WallBuilders are big believers in an originalist viewpoint. The Constitution means what it says, so we look back at the original intent of the Constitution. So, biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective, that’s what you’re going to get here at WallBuilders.

David Barton is our founder and he’s America’s premier historian. Tim Barton is a national speaker and pastor, he’s the president of WallBuilders. My name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas legislator, and the three of us look forward to visiting later in the program with Mike Farris. And look forward to bringing you this constitutional, biblical, historical, perspective on a daily basis.

A Definite Intersection

Rick:

Alright, fellows, well, one of the areas that is definitely an intersection of faith and the culture is the legal arena. Certainly we spent a lot of time working on cases across the country, talking about where that’s going to lead in terms of influence in the culture, what’s even legal in our country in terms of freedom of religion and so many other things that are important to us and to our listeners.

And we often refer to all these different Christian legal organizations out there making a difference and coming alongside people that are being discriminated against for their faith. Well, one of the biggest ones, maybe the largest, network of attorneys across the country is Alliance Defending Freedom.

David:

Alliance Defending Freedom is a large network. They’ve got somewhere around 1500 affiliate attorneys. I’ve actually been blessed to do some of their historical and constitutional legal training and kind of give them some perspective and history on it. So, they have great training conferences where they take these attorneys and keep them up to date on what’s going on, as well as history and original intent.

Tim and I were in Poland here a year or so ago and we were there with the founder of Alliance Defending Freedom. As we were in Europe he pointed out that, “Oh, yeah, we’ve got offices in Europe.” There’s a lot of religious liberty stuff there, a lot of family stuff. And as it turns out they have several offices and locations around the world where they stand up for these – what we call – inalienable rights, the God-given right to freedom of religion etc..

So, they’re doing this literally across the world because– we all recognize that the attacks against faith is not limited just to America’s, it”s not secularists in America, that’s the nature of secularists across the world. The attacks on marriage, or family, or sexuality – those aren’t just American progressives doing that, that happens across the world.

Standing Up for Rights Around the World

David:

So, here a great group like Alliance Defending Freedom is actually standing up for those rights and they’re doing it not only in America. And, by the way, I just talked to Michael Farris who’s president of Alliance Defending Freedom and he said that last week the Supreme Court met and voted on whether to pick up four of their cases. So, they got a bunch of cases sitting in front of the Supreme Court, they’re very active with what they do.

So, there is a ruling that just came down in Europe on family that really has a lot of overtones for what’s going here in America. And we thought it”d be really good to get Michael on to talk about that.

Tim:

Well, and specifically, it’s not just a ruling on family, it dealt with homeschooling in the family and in what the family want to do with the education of their children. And like happens in many European nations, the government says, “Whoa, you can only do education the way we allow you to do education.” And we often forget the freedoms that we enjoy in America, in a lot of respects, they are not the freedoms that every other nation around the world affords their citizens.

This is why, again, Alliance Defending Freedom is all around the world trying to fight for the rights that individuals should have in different nations whether or not those nations always recognize those rights.

But there was a situation over in Germany where a family dealt with some great legal difficulty because of how they wanted to educate their kids. And this is where Mike Ferris was part of that case and part of what’s going on. That’s why we thought this is something that really would be helpful for us to hear because although this is over in Germany, a lot of times what happens in Europe sets precedent, or at least sometimes reveals and indicates, the direction America is heading. Because we tend to follow some of the liberal policies that Europe enacts, unfortunately.

So, Mike will be the one who can come on and tell us what’s going on and what happened over there in Germany.

Rick:

Alright, Mike Farris from Alliance Defending Freedom. Stay with us, folks. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

Moment From American History.

This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. American Patriot Paul Revere road to alert Americans of the impending arrival of the British. But he also sought patriot leader Samuel Adams and John Hancock to warn them that the British were seeking their execution.

Adams and Hancock were staying with the Reverend Jonas Clark in Lexington. When they asked Pastor Clark if his church was ready for the approaching British he replied, “I’ve trained them for this very hour. They will fight and, if need be, die under the shadow of the house of God.”

Later that morning 70 men from his church, and several hundred British in the first battle of the War for Independence. As Pastor Clark affirmed, “The militia that morning were the same who filled the pews of the church meeting house on the Sunday morning before.”

The American church was regularly at the forefront of the fight for liberty. For more information on this pastor and other Colonial Patriots go to WallBuilders.com.

Rick:

Welcome go back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. Mike Farris is back with us. Of course, he”s president of Alliance Defending Freedom, but his heart, telling you, he founded Patrick Henry University, Homeschool Legal Defense, he understands the homeschool movement probably better than anybody in the country, maybe the world.

And looking around the world at Germany, Mike, first of all thanks for being back with us. Thanks for all the good work that you’re doing. I know you”ve got to be concerned by what’s happening in Germany and you don’t want to see it happen here.

Since the Third Reich

Mike Farris:

That’s right, Rick, I appreciate you have me on the program. Yeah, the decision of the European Court of Human Rights on the Wunderlich case is very disturbing case. We’ve been involved in both at HSLDA and ADF, my two organizations, if you will. We’re co-counsel in the case before the European Court. And the decision just about a week ago to deny them the right to homeschool and to say that the police were justified in raiding their house with more than a dozen police officers and just jerking the kids out was all perfectly appropriate, violated no rights.

Rick:

Is the mindset that different over there? Or is there– are there a lot of people there that do want to homeschool and want to be able to direct the upbringing of their children?

Mike Farris:

Well, there are some that do want to. I don’t think that there’s nearly as many as a percentage, but there are a number of faithful Christians who want to homeschool. There are other people who for good and proper educational reasons, or philosophical reasons, want to homeschool.

And the law in question has been on the books since the Third Reich and it hasn’t changed.

Rick:

Wow.

Mike Farris:

And the philosophy really is the same ultimately. Germany’s excuse for this is that they don’t want to create parallel societies. Which means little countries within countries, I guess. But what that means is they don’t want people to think differently than the majority thinks currently in Germany. And that’s exactly the same process that was in place in Nazi Germany. Not that they have the same political philosophy in vogue today as they did then, but same tactics. We should be always wanting to do the right thing and do it in the right way.

Totalitarian Tactics

Mike Farris:

Well, regardless what their motives are, their tactics are totalitarian in nature. They want everybody just think the same way. If you think differently on education or anything else you’re going be punished in Germany.

Rick:

What do you see in terms of parallels to the U.S.? That’s definitely, I would argue, reflected, that philosophy also reflected, in the education establishment in the U.S.. They want everybody lockstep doing the exact same thing and some states have– I’ve seen stories of kids being jerked out of their homes similar to this. Now, fortunately, we had guys like you and Homeschool Legal Defense to fight it and get them back.

But, certainly, the danger is there, right? We shouldn’t think that we shouldn’t be aware of these things here in the U.S..

Mike Farris:

I can tell you the names of the people who want to advocate the German position in the United States. Kimberly Rocco dean of Northwestern University School of Law has written a law review article advocating, essentially, the same process as Germany. Martha Alpert Cinnamon from Emory University has called for the banning of all private education – homeschooling, Christian schools, private schools, for the reason so they can attain philosophical unity.

And the philosophical unity, Kathryn Ross from George Washington Law School, same basic viewpoint. She says we need to, in order to create tolerance, we need to stop these intolerant homeschoolers from teaching their kids. She needs to take a course in logic to be able to say stuff like that. There are people openly advocating this and these people are training the next generation of lawyers, and legislators, and leaders. So, we should not think this is an idle threat.

The progressive movement is a totalitarian movement. They want everybody to think their ways or they will– they are intent on destroying you. And among other ways of destroying you they will destroy your liberty to choose alternative forms of education. With leaders in the kind of positions those people you just mentioned are in, like you said, they’re training the next generation.

One of the Best Things We Can Do

Rick:

One of the best things we can do to combat that is to train the young people from the next generation in the right way and prepare them to fight these battles. Of course, that’s why you founded Patrick Henry. That”s why you have the best debate teams every year – you’re preparing them for that as well.

As you step back and look at the landscape across the U.S. how are we doing on our side to be prepared for those kind of battles with this next generation?

Mike Farris:

Well, we’re doing better than we did 20 years ago, that’s for sure. You’ve got programs training young patriots, the Blackstone program that Alliance Defending Freedom has for training the best and brightest law students, we train one hundred and sixty every year in a Christian worldview, and advanced constitutional law, and other topics. It’s a great program. It’s really a lifetime program of career help and training. And then Patrick Henry College, of course, is a tremendous asset. And Patrick Henry won its 12th McCourt national championship just a couple of weeks ago.

But when you think of those numbers, and you think of the tens of thousands that are being trained by people with a contrary worldview, it’s really a small number against a great big number. The good news is, the Bible says one can drive out a thousand, two can drive out 10,000. So, we really need to support the programs like your program, like the programs I’ve just mentioned, so that we do the very best we can to train the next generation in the principles of truth, leadership, the Constitution, biblical worldview, and that cluster of issues so that we have the remnant that we need to lead.

Rick:

And that’s– on the ADF program, what is it called? It”s the Witherspoon Institute?

The Blackstone Fellowship

Mike Farris:

It’s called the Blackstone Fellowship.

Rick:

he Blackstone fellowship. Okay. And that’s 160– and they’re at law schools all over the country, right?

Mike Farris:

That’s right. We get them from top law schools and just a smattering of law schools. But about 60 percent are from the top 10 law schools.

Rick:

Wow. Wow, That’s exciting. Very good to hear. Last thing before I let you go, just for the parents out there that are listening, this is not just in the law schools. This has really infiltrated all the way down even to your local elementary school this philosophy. So, what would be your challenge just to parents to, hey, you really need to look into– if you haven’t already switched to homeschooling or private school, you need to look into what’s being taught at your local public school.

Mike Farris:

Amen to that. If I could wave a magic wand and get Christian parents to do one thing about the education of children, I’d say go read the Bible and see what it says about educating your children. It’s really clear. Read Romans 1 where it talks about what the consequences are if you don’t retain the knowledge of God in the way you train people.

Rick:

Yeah.

Mike Farris:

The answer is it turns them over to a depraved mind to do that which ought not to be done. Every verse on the training of children requires a godly education. So, I just ask him to go look at what the Bible says and then figure out what they need to do from there.

Rick:

Good stuff. Good stuff. Mike, always blessing, keep up the great work. ADFLegal.org for Alliance Defending Freedom. We”ll also have links to Patrick Henry University and Homeschool Legal Defense. We appreciate your time, man. Let’s look forward to having you back soon.

Mike Farris:

Thank you, Rick. God bless.

Rick:

Stay with us, folks. We”ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Bring A Speaker To Your Area

Tim:

Hey, this is Tim Barton with WallBuilders. Â And as you’ve had the opportunity to listen to WallBuilders Live, you’ve probably heard a wealth of information about our nation, about our spiritual heritage, about the religious liberties, and about all the things that make America exceptional.

And you might be thinking, “As incredible as this information is, I wish there was a way that I could get one of the WallBuilders guys to come to my area and share with my group.”

Whether it be a church, whether it be a Christian school, or public school, or some political event, or activity, if you’re interested in having a WallBuilders speaker come to your area, you can get on our website at www.WallBuilders.com and there’s a tab for scheduling. If you”ll click on that tab, you’ll notice there’s a list of information from speakers bio’s, to events that are already going on. And there’s a section where you can request an event, to bring this information about who we are, where we came from, our religious liberties, and freedoms. Go to the WallBuilders website and Bring a speaker to your area.

Rick:

We’re back on WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us and thanks to Mike Farris for joining us today as well. Back with David and Tim Barton.

Guys, just like Tim said at the beginning of the program, we watch this stuff in Europe because it can happen here. And as Mike said, in some ways, is happening here.

Who Owns the Kids

David:

Well, what this debate is over is who owns the kids. Does the government own the kids? Or do the parents on the kids?

Rick:

Right.

David:

Who’s in charge of kids? Is government supposed to be in charge of how to raise the kids or parents? And, Rick, you ask the question, you were asking Mike, is the mindset different over there? Let me jump in and answer that. We’re talking the same mindset over here. I don”t know if you guys saw over the last couple of weeks we now have a pastor who has been sentenced to two years in jail. What he did was actually preach a sermon based on a couple versus out of the Bible.

Let me just read a couple verses here – Proverbs 23:13, Bible says, “Don’t hesitate to discipline children. A good spanking won’t kill them.” Okay. Pretty simple stuff. Let me go to Proverbs 13:24, “If you don’t punish your children, you don’t love them. If you do love them, you’ll correct them. Even using a rod.” So, the Bible talks about a rod which is kind of like what we used to call switch, just a little small kind of a stick kind of thing.

A pastor advocated doing what the Bible said, using a switch, giving a spanking. He’s got two years in jail for using the concept of a switch or rod on a child.

Tim:

I think what I saw, one the articles I saw about that, he encouraged them to use dowel rods.

David:

Yeah.

Tim:

Just a little wooden rod said, “Hey, this is great. Use this dowel rod, it’s handy, it”s convenient.” I actually know some families that have used dowel rods and actually–

David:

I know some families that have used more than dowel rods.

Let”s Clarify Dowel Rods

Tim:

Yeah. My family didn’t use dowel rods, those were too small. But–

Rick:

And, wait, let’s just clarify- because not dowel rod as in the one you use in the closet to hang your–

Tim:

Clothes on.

Rick:

Clothes on.

Tim:

Right. We”re talking one the size of your pinky.

Rick:

Yeah, a little bitty skinny one. That’s basically what my grandma used as a switch.

David:

Right. Exactly.

Tim:

I think something the size of your pinky is essentially what we’re talking about with a dowel rod. And, for example, I know a family that they had several little dowel rods just Â the size of your pinky or smaller and they would keep them above the door frames on several doors in the house. And then when guests would come over, if the kids started acting up, mom or dad would get their attention and just look up at the door and the kids just went quiet.

David:

That”s good.

Tim:

It’s so funny because guests would say, “We always wondered why were the kids scared of the door. Was there something in the room they were scared of?” And, no, it was these little dowel rods. But because he was encouraging that physical discipline might in this case be appropriate.

Just Preaching the Bible

David:

And, by the way, you used the word encouraging. He did not spank the child. He just preached a sermon saying, “Here”s what the Bible says.”

Tim:

Yes. This pastor, right, this pastor is just advocating, hey, where the Bible talks about if you spare the rod, you spoil the child, right? If you spank the child, you won’t kill him, but you might save his soul from hell. These are all things from Proverbs.

David:

And those are Bible verses you just quoted, by the way.

Tim:

These are all things from Proverbs from–

Rick:

I”ve got to ask you guys, sorry, rabbit trail – anybody else’s grandma make you go pick your own switch?

David:

Oh, yeah. Thank you very much.

Rick:

Yeah, okay, great. That was mine.

Tim:

My dad’s parents, so my grandparents, not only did they have this little rosebud bush in their front yard we had to go pick a switch from. Not only was there we had to go pick our own switch, if you didn’t pick a good enough switch, granddad would come out and help you make a better selection of the switch you were about to get beat with.

David:

Yeah. At times when you didn’t want to go outside, the weather’s not good, it was, “Go to my closet, and get the belt, and bring me the belt.” And it’s like, “Oh my gosh.”

Belt Dilemmas

Tim:

Yeah. And when you get to pick a belt there’s a dilemma, right? Do I get the skinny one or the thick one? Because the skinny one is going to fly through the air a little faster and there”s a scary sound when it comes. But with a thick one that’s harder and, yeah, there are some dilemmas here, which belt do I pick?

And yet for a pastor to encourage that, parents, you ought to be able to discipline. And we’re not talking about child abuse, although that was the way it was perceived.

Rick:

Right.

Tim:

It was perceived as a pastor saying, “You should abuse your children.” Everybody who’s ever received a spanking– now, granted, there are some terrible situations where abuse did happen and where parents–

Rick:

Definitely.

Tim:

–did not discipline out of trying to instruct and train their children, but were taking out frustration and anger. Obviously, that’s wrong every time.

Rick:

Yeah.

Tim:

Parents are totally wrong. That is not how you’re supposed to discipline, and train, and instruct, your children. However, the pastor wasn’t encouraging you when you get frustrated to get a dowel rod and go beat your children. No, no, no, he was talking about training and instruction and using, right, a tool to help your kids learn–

David:

Something relatively small, too, he was a small kind of like a switch, with a dowel with a small finger.

Tim:

–but now looking at two years of jail time because he encouraged him to do what the book of Proverbs– the wisest man that ever lived was King Solomon. And to follow the advice of the wisest man who ever lived, it got him two years in jail here in America.

David:

So, Rick, your question about is the mindset different over there. I’ve got to say the mindset”s different over here. Progressive thinking – whether it’s in Germany, or whether it”s in America, they’ve got this pretty common thing that, “We”ll tell you what to do with your children, how to raise your children. We’ll tell you what’s permissible what’s not permissible.” So, we’re seeing that here in America as well.

Rick:

Yeah, without a doubt, it’s exactly what Tim was saying. We saw it in Europe, we saw that exact kind of thing happen in Europe. Now it’s happening here even to this pastor – not only when it comes to discipline and following Solomon’s wisdom, but also in the area of education and choosing the education of your child.

Hang on, guys. We’ll be right back. Got to take a quick break. Folks, you’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

This Precarious Moment Book

David:

This is David Barton. I want to let about a brand new book we have called This Precarious Moment: Six Urgent Steps That Will Save You, Your family, and Our Country. Jim Garlow and I have co-authored this book and we take six issues that are hot in the culture right now.

Issues that we’re dealing with, issues such as immigration, race relations, our relationship with Israel, the rising generation Millennials, and the absence of the church in the culture wars, and where American heritage is, our godly heritage. We look at all six of those issues right now that are under attack and we give you both Biblical and historical perspective on those issues that provide solutions on what each of us can do right now to make a difference.

These are all problems that are solvable if we’ll get involved. So you can grab the book This Precarious Moment and find out what you can do to make a difference. This Precarious Moment is available at WallBuilders.com.

The Foundation of Socialism and Communism

Rick:

Thanks for staying with us, folks. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live. We’re back with David and Tim again. And, David, Tim, we talked about the discipline issue in that in that case, the one that Mike’s talking about out of– that Mike Farris was talking about earlier in the program out of Europe on homeschooling. I was surprised that Farris could name those professors in these very high level positions at very, unfortunately, very respected universities.

So, that philosophy is being taught, as he said, to the people in the classrooms that are going to be the attorneys, and be the judges, and be the legislators, making a law 10, 15, 20, years from now.

Tim:

Well, the philosophy that we’re talking about is a philosophy very much that is the foundation of socialism and communism.

Rick:

Yeah.

Tim:

And, really, knowing that this is, right, that this is part of the idea of socialism and communism, it’s really no surprise because we already know the socialism polling of college kids.

David:

Let me add another “ism” in there because you’re right on. He said the progressive movement is a totalitarian movement – and that’s communism, socialism, progressivism, all this stuff has got the same objective and end.

Already Getting These Undertones

Tim:

Right. So, when 75 percent of college students think socialism is a good idea, you already see they’re already getting these undertones. And part of what we’re seeing even from so much teaching in universities is you don’t tolerate people that don’t believe what we’re telling you to believe, right. When a professor says, “Hey, don’t tolerate a Ben Shapiro”, right, whatever conservative voice is coming on campus, Dinesh D’Souza, whoever it is, don’t tolerate these voices because they’re inappropriate, they”re going to say bad things.

This is the very nature that would lead you to go, “Whoa, parents shouldn’t be able to have their kids in a private school or homeschool because they’re not going to learn what they need to learn. We have to oppose people who don’t think like we think.” And this is that very nature we’re seeing in America.

David:

Well, I thought Mike used a great phrase in this because, Rick, you were asking about this why not. And Mike said, “Look, what they’re after is a philosophical unity. They don’t want a voice speaking differently than what the government is itself saying. They don’t want a voice at home telling kids different than what the government says. So, they want a philosophical unity which, Tim, that”s what you’re talking about. They don’t want this all–

So, “You reject Ben Shapiro, you reject any other voice on campus that’s not what we tell you.” And it’s amazing. I was really shocked when Mike said that the law they used to prosecute this family is a law that has survived from the Third Reich. That this was a law they had under Hitler because Hitler wanted everybody to have whatever thought he wanted and do what he wanted. This is the law they used going back to Hitler. Are you kidding me?

Tim:

I would love to know if that was one of the points in the case. If it’s like, “Hey, if we’re following Hitler’s idea it’s probably wrong.”

David:

Yeah. Â

Following Hitler”s Mindset?

Tim:

I would love to know. Could we bring this up in the case? I feel like that’s a winning argument. If we’re following Hitler’s model it’s not a good thing for us to be following. And yet this is part of where that idea came from is you have to be a unified voice with what we think.

David:

That’s right. It’s a controlling government. When you get a controlling government, you lose the influence of individuality. So, what we see with that court case in Germany is not that dissimilar from the same kind of thinking and movement that’s going on particularly in elites and academics here in America. It’s something really to keep our eyes on.

But, fortunately, there are groups out there fighting this. In this case ADF didn’t win, but they’re still standing and fighting for these principles. We just need to make sure we don’t get to the point where Germany just got that you make it illegal to be able to raise your children with an idea different from what the government wants to teach them.

Rick:

Well, it is fundamental to the American concept of freedom that as parents–

David:

Yeah.

Rick:

–we would be the ones to choose that – not some government entity, or some bureaucrat, or some professor at some university. If you don’t want it to happen here like what’s happening in Europe, in Germany specifically, from our program today, if you don’t want that happening here in our nation, then as a citizen, as a free citizen, you’ve got to let your voice be heard and let your values be counted. We must be engaged in the process. There is a concentrated effort to turn America into something it was never intended to be. We can push back on that, we can change that, we can defeat that.

Be A Paul Revere

Rick:

But we have to be engaged, we’ve got to be learning constantly, learning that biblical, historical, and constitutional, perspective on these things. We’ve got to constantly be working with our fellow citizens to impact what’s happening in our communities, and our state, and in our nation.

So, I hope that you will come alongside us here at WallBuilders Live, that you’ll share this program with your friends and family. You can use your social media tools – Facebook, and Twitter, and Instagram, and all these other tools out there to actually spread the word. You can be like a Paul Revere of this day, you can actually be out there sounding the alarms and saying, “Hey, we need to learn these things, we need to–“ it’s not scare tactics, it’s not the sky is falling, it’s just, hey, I’m being realistic about what’s happening in the world around me and I want to do my part to make sure that freedom is protected for my kids and grandkids. And you can be a part of that.