Why Recognizing Jerusalem As Israel’s Capital Matters: Should President Trump recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel? What is the significance of making it the capital? In this episode, you”€™ll learn why recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital matters.   Israel and Palestine: Two Claims to the Land With Pastor Jim Garlow: In this episode, Pastor Jim discusses President Trump”€™s recent move to switch the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem. We learn about how Palestinian claims to the land really don”€™t hold up. We also learn about the importance of being Pro-Israel and the negative things that have happened to nations that have tried to divide the land. Tune in now to learn more!

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton

Air Date: 12/20/2017

Guest:  Pastor Jim Garlow

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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast.  However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture.  This is WallBuilders Live! Where we”€™re talking about today”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture, all of it from a Biblical, historical, and Constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Also, the president of WallBuilders is Tim Barton, he”€™s a national speaker and pastor, he”€™s with us as well. And my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator.  

You can find out more at our two websites – WallBuildersLive.com and also, WallBuilders.com.

Has an American President Ever Recognized Jerusalem as Capital of Israel?

Rick:

And today David, Tim, we’re going to be talking about Israel and something that’s happened that I don’t even know when the last — has it ever happened? Has an American President ever recognized Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel or is this the first? I know we’ve tried to get presidents in my lifetime to do that, but I don’t know that it has been done.

David:

Rick, you just changed the caveat because you had said, “€œDid any President?”€Â  Then you said, “€œIn your lifetime.”€Â  Now, if you go back previously if you read the Bible, any president who read the Bible saw what’s in the Bible that all the way back to the time of David, David made Jerusalem the capital of Israel. So, that was not questioned. And so–

Tim:

So, basically, that’s almost every President in American history.

David:

Every President in American history who read the Bible – that’s right.

Tim:

Because even the ones that weren’t Christians grew up in an education system where they learned to read using the Bible primarily. So they knew the — even the least or non-religious guys we would identify still knew what the Bible says. So, even those guys would have said, “€œOh yeah, no, no, no. Jerusalem, yeah, sure, that’s the capital of Israel.”€ It was a basic acknowledgment because it was a given fact until, oh, maybe a little more recently.

Now, we’ve had some more recent presidents maybe–

The Palestinians Can”€™t Claim it as an Ancient Homeland

David:

Yeah, what happens now is Palestinians said, “€œNo, no, no. That doesn’t belong to Israel. It belongs to us. It was taken from us.”€ No, it wasn’t actually. The Palestinians, the Arab people, no that wasn’t.

I mean, the Philistines, you go back — no, you”€™ve got to go back to Greece because the original Philistines in the Bible came from Greece. And they were gone out of the Holy Land by the third or fourth century A.D. So, the Palestinians today, they can’t claim that as an ancient homeland, it’s not theirs. But, what happens is they make a lot of noise. The media is silly enough that they don’t know enough of the Bible and don’t check out the facts.

And so they say, “€œOh, well, it really isn’t — it doesn”€™t belong to the Jewish people. It’s a divided city.”€ No, it’s always been the capital of Israel since all the way back in Bible times. So, it’s been a pretty much no-brainer except for secular folks who believe whatever somebody tells them. But, now we’ve got President Trump who has stepped out and said, “€œHey, America does recognize–“€

And by the way, this goes back to President Clinton. Even when we passed the law in 1995 that said the U.S. embassy is going to be placed in Jerusalem – which is the eternal undivided capital of Israel – even Clinton recognized. But, politically, they said, “€œYeah, but I don’t know that we can move the embassy there because it”€™s going to make Palestinians mad. It may start a civil war etc. etc.”€

Presidents Have Had to Sign a Waiver to Not Move the Embassy

David:

From the time that law has been passed, every single president every six months has to sign a waiver not to move the embassy to Jerusalem. So, every president has known that, including Obama, because he had to sign the waiver 16 times to keep from moving the embassy to Jerusalem. I mean, it’s kind of a no-brainer that nobody recognizes that.

Tim:

So, presidents have acknowledged this all the way since Harry Truman. Nobody just had the courage to say, “€œWe’re doing something about it.”€

Rick:

Yeah, and why? Why has it been so difficult to get it done?

David:

Well, two things. The State Department and the Defense Department. Those are the two that have been against this all the way through. The State Department, it tends to be wrong in everything. The State Department is wrong on Israel, it’s wrong on the Middle East, it’s wrong on Africa, it’s wrong on most issues.  It is one of the greatest cesspools that needs to be drained in Washington, D.C. If you want to drain the swamp, that’s a great place to start.

Tim:

Now, are you saying it in kind of more modern era recently, or all the way back–

The State Department”€™s Globalist Mentality

David:

No, I”€™m saying terms of the last 40 to 50 years. Because they’ve got this globalist mentality, and they don’t want to offend anybody else, and America does not come first to them. The world comes first to them. And so, they are not supporters. And you have to — since World War II, you can pretty much say the State Department has been a real problem.

You may recall that it was the State Department who told Ronald Reagan that he couldn’t talk about tearing down the wall and he did it anyway. And after Ronald Reagan said, “€œMr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall,”€ the State Department issued their own press release and said, “€œWell, he doesn’t speak for us. That’s his opinion.”€

Rick:

Their own president. Unbelievable.

David:

So, that’s the problem. Because the State Department said, “€œThis is bad.”€ And the military listens to the State Department and says, “€œWell, if you do this, it might erupt in a war of some kind. So, we don’t want to get troops involved, so, let”€™s not do it.”€ Well, being risk-averse when there is — this is an inevitable kind of thing, that is kind of crazy.

And as it turned out, when President Trump made this announcement — and I love what he pointed out, he said, “€œLook, guys, we’ve been signing this waiver for over 20 years and it has not stopped the fighting in Israel. It”€™s not made Israel quieter, it”€™s not made the Middle East safer. So, why do we keep doing this? Because it’s not doing what you guys said it’s supposed to do.”€

And so he’s done it and, you know, everybody said, “€œOh, it”€™s going to erupt.”€ And it has not erupted. I mean, how much more often are you going to fight than every day which is what the Palestinians are doing right now. So, he’s made this decision and as it turned out, Tim and I were both invited on a phone call from the White House right after the president made this announcement.

It was really interesting to hear what went into the reasoning and the thinking, and all the research and preparation they did for this, and how they had studied it, and how they’re convinced this is the right thing to do. And the president did it despite what his military people, and despite what the State Department was telling him about this. He went — from that standpoint, “€œGuys, we”€™ve been doing the same thing for 20 years, it”€™s not working the way it”€™s supposed to, let’s do something different.”€

And so it really is remarkable to have a president who has stepped out in the same position the Bible says you should be.   He stepped out to do this.   I just– I think good things are going to come to America as a result.

Rick:

Well, Pastor Jim Garlow is our guest to talk about this when we come back so stay with us. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live!

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Rick:

Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Pastor Jim Garlow from Skyline Church in San Diego back with us. Good to have you, brother.

Pastor Jim Garlow:

Good to be back with you, my friend.

An Exciting Sneak Peak

Rick:

Author of Well Versed and several other books. And actually a sneak peek, folks, we”€™ve got one coming out with Garlow and Barton soon. But, Pastor, that’s not why I’m calling, I’m calling to get you to tell us a little bit about what this means. That Trump is actually doing something that presidents in the past have kind of hinted at, but not actually done, and that is recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. What does this really mean?

Pastor Jim Garlow:

Well, isn”€™t it a unique thought that the president would actually do what he campaigned on?

Rick:

Right.

Pastor Jim Garlow:

First of all. But, I think it’s the most significant statement, regarding Israel, made by a US president since Harry Truman affirmed the fact of a statehood 70 years ago, May 14th, 1948.

Rick:

Wow.

Pastor Jim Garlow:

It just puts the exclamation mark behind what Harry Truman said, and helps recognize the reality that Israel is for real. Their neighbors ought to admit it, they ought to come to the realization. It puts a real strong punctuation mark behind that affirming reality, Israel is a nation and Jerusalem is their capital. And, they ought to have the privilege to do what all the other 200 nations of the world get to do, choose their own capital.

Rick:

What’s the background on this? Why is it — or has it been Tel Aviv that’s been recognized, and why haven’t we done this before?

Keep Jerusalem an International City?

Pastor Jim Garlow:

There”€™s a fancy little phrase and that is, “€œKeep Jerusalem an international city.”€ Well, we don’t say that about any other city. How would we like it if they said,  “€œWell, Washington, D.C. can’t be your capital, it”€™s got to be an international city. It belongs to everybody. It belongs to other nations too.”€

We wouldn”€™t like that very well and in the case of Jerusalem saying it”€™s an international city, that’s a nice way of saying, “€œNo, it doesn’t belong to Israel. It belongs to, well, other people as well.”€ And so consequently, for all these years, they’ve just not been willing to acknowledge that Jerusalem is the capital.

There are other people claiming the territory. As we well know, the city was split until 50 years ago, 1967, and that piece of it claimed by, in that case, Jordan or the Palestinians.

I suppose most of your listeners are pretty smart and know that Palestinian is a word that was made up by the Romans back when they sacked Jerusalem 70 A.D. To put the Jews down they called it Palestine named after the word Philistine.

The Philistines were not Arabs, they were seafaring people, they came from the islands off the Mediterranean. But, the Romans just created a word. Palestine has no etymology per se, no history per se. They just created that word to try to put the Jews down, to rename their own country, Israel, something else after their arch enemies, the Philistine.

Rick:

Wow.

Pastor Jim Garlow:

Well, there’s no Philistines left anymore. And so there is not, ethnically speaking, in terms of ethnography, there’s no such thing as a Palestinian people. Now certainly there are Arabs. And, by the way, to be pro Israel doesn’t mean you’re anti the so-called Palestinian people. We care deeply about them.

Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. God loves them as well. But, He also made crystal clear that the Jewish people play a particularly unique role that the rest of us do not play. And, to just cut to the chase on this, Israel doesn’t occupy that land, they own it. It’s theirs. God gave it to them.

U.S. Push Back

Rick:

What do you think the — well, I guess first, the U.S. pushback, if any, on Trump in doing this? Have there been groups in the U.S. that opposed this or was this just an international reason for presidents to not take this step?

Pastor Jim Garlow:

Well, certainly it’s not politically popular among those called evangelical Christians here in this country who participate in what”€™s called the replacement theology. It leaves the church replacing Israel.

Therefore, God doesn’t give a rip about that little piece of real estate called Israel anymore. So, that’s one group of people and they’re probably not too thrilled with this going forward. They still don’t see any significance into that particular land.

My wife happens to be over there right now in Israel – her 62 trip.

Rick:

Wow.

Pastor Jim Garlow:

There are certainly believers. We just got back from — about a dozen of us had the privilege of meeting with President el-Sisi in Egypt.

That”€™s the first time he’s met with a group of evangelicals and had a wonderful time with him – extremely positive. And then with King Jordan — King Abdullah King of Jordan, also we met with him. And both — in those cases both those leaders, of course, Muslim.  They would be in opposition to this and the evangelical Christians within their respective countries.

We had the privilege of meeting with wonderful evangelical brothers. They, for the most part, would not share much excitement about this because they also follow on what’s called replacement theology. They have a, in some cases, distinct anti-Israel view. The evangelicals are our Christian brothers, these evangelicals, and we love them deeply, and we care deeply for them. We just feel, on this particular issue, they’re missing the truth, we believe, what the scripture says, of Israel’s particular role and its continual role.

The Indivisible and Eternal Capital of Israel

Pastor Jim Garlow:

And that Jerusalem is in fact — and here’s the key phrase — the indivisible and eternal capital of Israel. Indivisible – it means it can never be divided. It was established by David when he took the Jebusite city from the Jebusites 3,000 years ago and it’s been in that particular role ever since. And it will be an eternal place, in fact, the place in which Jesus will return someday – possibly soon. And consequently, from there God will operate and rule the world. So, it’s an extremely significant part of the Earth.

Rick:

Dr. Jim, is there a — you’re very involved in D.C. as well with a lot of ministry there at the Capitol and with a lot of our public servants. Do you think this was a — I mean, without revealing any private conversation you’re not supposed reveal — but was this a struggle behind the scenes with the administration? Or do you think Trump had to really fight to be able to do this? Or was this one that his team was on board with?

Pastor Jim Garlow:

Well, I”€™ll know more after Monday. A number of us will be gathering, a small group, about 20 evangelicals, will be gathered there with some of the key administration officials.

Rick:

And I should throw into that — sorry to interrupt you  — and Congress too. I mean, was Congress fighting him on this or was there a lot of our members of the House and Senate also that have been pushing for this?

Congress On The Issue

Pastor Jim Garlow:

Well, the House and the Senate, I think of course, they have history, as you well know, voting in favor of this. Both Republicans and Democrats for the most part, now the anti Israel bias among some liberal Democrats has grown a little bit, but still a tiny group. Some were more enthused about it than others. I think the resistance didn’t come so much, as I understand it, from House and Senate. I think there were probably some pretty intense conversations within the administration, some that may have varying views, and for understandable reasons.

Because there’s always been the threat there’s going to be violence if somebody says — makes this declaration, if one of the presidents makes this declaration. Well, when has there not been violence?

Rick:

Right.

Pastor Jim Garlow:

You and I both have both been to Israel many times. And every time we go, there has been precious Jewish blood on the streets somewhere where Arab Muslims have killed some Jewish people. So, that’s an ongoing tragedy. But, I suspect whether this announcement or not there is uprising and some of the uprisings are very planned and canned and artificial. Almost has the feel of a George Soros funded event ready made for a camera, for a TV camera.

The Palestinian People Want What We Want

Pastor Jim Garlow:

I don’t want to downplay frustration with it, but I also want to recognize that the Palestinian people — I’m not talking about the leadership — we”€™re people who, for the most part, want what we want. They would like to have a family, and a job, and things go well in life. And the fact is, the Palestinian leadership is what’s harming the Palestinian people. Well, if anyone who has traveled through Samaria, what they call the West Bank, * called Samaria, you can see the atrocious abuses. In the sense that, the billions of dollars flowing into Palestinian hands and are building gargantuan homes for the leadership while the people, Palestinian people, suffer at the hands of their rulers.

I will point out that when we go on — we take groups over here all the time. I’ve been over there 13 times. I’ll be going over soon in a few days. And we point out to people those are not hotels – that four story building that stretches for so far – it”€™s not a hotel, it”€™s a single family dwelling–

Rick:

Wow.

A Tragedy We All Ought to Care About

Pastor Jim Garlow:

–they have multiple generations. People are shocked – how can anybody ever afford such a gargantuan home?! It”€™s because of the massive amount — there’s not a people group getting greater amount of financial help around the world than the Palestinians. But, it’s being — the corruption is so high, there are people who are worth a gazillion dollars and take it all, and consequently, the Palestinian people do suffer. That’s a tragedy that we all ought to care about that.

Rick:

Yeah.

Pastor Jim Garlow:

But that does not alter the fact that the Bible declares that the Jews still have a special role in the future in terms of God’s plan. And Israel, as a nation, belongs to them. And Jerusalem is the capital of that geographical proximity.

Rick:

Well, like you said earlier, it’s great to have a president that is doing what he said he would do on the campaign trail. And this is one that we’ve wanted to see for a long time. So, it’s an exciting day to see it happen. Pastor Jim Garlow, always good to have you, brother. Thanks for your time today.

Pastor Jim Garlow:

Thank you. And a joy to be on with you, my friend.

Rick:

Stay with us folks. We”€™ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Pastors Only Briefing Trip

Tim:

Hi, this is Tim Barton with WallBuilders and I want to encourage all the pastors out there with a unique opportunity that we’re presenting it WallBuilders. We’re doing a special tour just for pastors that you can come and learn more about the spiritual heritage of our nation. Not just seeing the sights but understanding the significance of what they are and what they represent.

We get to go to the Capitol at night.  And we get to see the spiritual heritage of our Founding Fathers, of who we are as a nation, where we came from. We bring in congressman that will tell you about current legislation, about our religious liberties  and freedom, and what’s going on in Washington, D.C.

If you’re a pastor or if you want to recommend your pastor for this trip, you can go to our website at www.WallBuilders.com. And there’s a link that’s for scheduling.  If you click on that link there’s a section for pastor”€™s briefing. There’s more information about the dates, when it’s going, and how it’s going to happen. If you want to know more about our nation, our religious liberties, our freedom, our spiritual heritage, this is a trip you want to be a part of.

A Moment From American History

This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. Too often today history education excludes great black heroes from the American founding. Such as Lemuel Haynes.

Haynes, though abandoned as a baby, pioneer churches across upper New England. He became the first black American to pastor a white congregation, to receive an honorary master’s degree, and to be ordained by a mainstream Christian denomination, The Congregationalist.

He was a soldier during the American Revolution and in his churches on George Washington’s birthday he regularly preached sermons honoring George Washington. Even late in his life he expressed his willingness to go back to battle if necessary to protect America, which he called, “€œa sacred ark.”€

American history is filled with numerous examples of black heroes who are largely ignored by mainstream education today. For more information about Pastor Lemuel Haynes and other colonial Patriots go to WallBuilders.com.

The State Department is the Biggest Nut to Crack on This

Rick:

Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Thanks to Pastor Jim Garlow for joining us today as well. We’re back with David and Tim and, guys, it sounds like, from what Pastor Garlow was saying, I mean, there was pushback, certainly in D.C. on this.

And as you were saying earlier, David, the State Department obviously the biggest nut to crack on this. But, man, I mean for Trump to step out on this one is a big deal and bodes well for Israel and for America”€™s support of Israel.

David:

You know Jim Garlow and I are actually doing a book together and it comes out in September of 2018. And it deals with six really hot topics that are being dealt with in America today – racism and immigration etc.. But, one of those topics is Israel. And one of the things we point out is what God specifically says about Israel. God is the one who said, “€œI am giving you this land.”€

And He described the boundaries and the borders. So, it is God who gave them — and Jim is right, Israel doesn’t occupy that land – they own it because God gave it to them and to no one else. And one thing we point out in the book is 23 nations have come in and tried to take that land away from Israel or divide it in some way. And the most recent of those nations that tried to divide the land was Great Britain. Prior to World War II, they tried to divide it and split it up.

You Don”€™t Divide the Land of Israel

Initially back in World War One, Great Britain says, “€œLook, all of this is Israel, belongs to Israel.”€ And then, by the time they get to World War II, they said, “€œWell, alright, Palestinians need half of it.”€ So, they carved out a huge chunk, made the Israel portion very small. And before that, Great Britain had been a massive world power. After that, look at them now, they’re kind of a footnote in Europe.

They’re not even the greatest power in Europe anymore. And so, 23 nations, when they tried to carve up or divide the land, God has made real clear in Joel, in the book of Joel, He says, “€œYou will not divide My land. And if you do, this kind of judgment, curse, comes on you.”€ 23 nations have tried to do that and none of them have come out unscathed. So, this is a big deal for what Trump says here.

Because, if there is a God, and if God has specific principles that He will bless–

Tim:

Which, by the way, both are true.

David:

Both are true.

Tim:

There is a God and He does have specific principles–

International Cities

David:

That He will bless. And this is one of them – that you don’t divide the land in Israel. And so, Jim’s right – you don’t call Jerusalem an international city. It is, but it belongs to Israel. I mean, Houston”€™s an international city, and so is LA, and so is New York, and so is Washington, D.C..

But, you know what, we don’t say “€œinternational”€ means other nations own parts of them. That just means that they are an international city in the sense of there’s people there from all over the world.

And the same way with Jerusalem. You walk through Jerusalem, you’ll hear 15 or 20 different languages every day when you walk through Jerusalem. There are people there from all over, it is an international city.

But guess what? It belongs to Israel, and it is the capital of Israel, and that’s the way it has been for thousands, and thousands, and thousands, of years. So, what Trump has done is really significant.

Money Being Kept by These Few at the Top

Rick:

I always wondering what you guys thought about what Jim was saying about the amount of money that flows into the Palestinian organizations and how little of it actually gets to the people in need. I mean, the mansions and whatnot that he was talking about, I had never heard that. That’s a lot of, that means a lot of that money is just being kept by these few at the top.

Tim:

It certainly is a place where you do see a lot of corruption. Certainly, there’s a lot of danger on that side. The moral or the lack, I guess, of moral values, of decency, and the value of life, is certainly seen. When you don’t have the moral structure, it’s very easy for those at the top to say, “€œWait a second, this can benefit me absolutely.”€ It’s one of the things that is interesting about the Palestinians.

A Refugee Status People

Tim:

The U.N. still classifies them as a refugee status people. And therefore they are basically unable to receive exorbitant amounts of funds from nations that will support them because they are refugees. Well, they’ve been there for three generations at least, right?

The people that might have been refugees now have grandkids and great grandkids that are living in the area. It’s hard to qualify and classify them as refugees any longer, but they have this unique classification.

And this is where, as we’ve identified, just kind of this secular and progressive thoughts of Israel, or specifically the Palestinians. It’s seen in the way it’s viewed from the U.N.  Really, what our government did even for a while in trying to validate the Palestinians. And, “€œWell, no, they have as much right. And well, they need to have right, and their rights.”€Â  Really confusing the issue.

But, this is something that culturally has been there and it’s enabled the Palestinians to get so much money. But, just like any form of communism, or socialism, or fascism, when they are receiving lots of money, they do not redistribute to the people, as oftentimes they would argue.

Even modern Americans would contend and saying, “€˜No, socialism is great because look at how it”€™s distributed to all the people.”€ No, the people in the top of this food pyramid, in this food chain, they never distribute to those at the bottom. It”€™s certainly what you see with the Palestinians.

It’s silly the way they’re labeled to enable them to receive such funds. But, that’s kind of where the issue is today.

Palestinians Would Rather be Ruled by the Current Israeli Government

David:

And, Rick, with that, it’s an interesting thing that when you poll the Palestinian people, they say they would rather be ruled by the current Israeli government than by Palestinian authority. That”€™s Palestinians. They recognize how corrupt this stuff is. So the polling is, the Palestinians recognize it, but they are pawns in this thing. And by the way, I told you that Great Britain split up the land.

If you go back to the Balfour Declaration which says that that land that we know as Israel belongs to Israel. Then, they came along and said, “€œWell, we’re going to carve part of it out and make what we call the Transjordan which is now the nation of Jordan. That was part of Israel, but Great Britain gave it away.

When they gave it away, at that point in time, they — the Palestinians could have their own nation.   They said, “€œBut we don’t want that – we want the remaining land that’s left.”€

So they have had three occasions where the Palestinians have been offered land to have a Palestinian nation, but they don’t want land. They want Israel. They want Israel’s land. So, they are refugee status because they choose to be because they want Israel out of the remaining part of that land. They want them gone.

It”€™s Not Just the Land of Israel

Tim:

Well, and I think it’s important to identify it’s not just they want the land of Israel – they want the people of Israel, right? The Jewish people, they want them gone.

David:

That’s right.

Tim:

So, even if we said, “€œHey, okay, you guys can have Israel and let’s just do a land swap.”€ Right. So, now the Jewish people could live over here which is not Israel. The Palestinians wouldn’t be happy–

David:

That”€™s right.

Tim:

–as long as the Jewish people were still there. So, this is not an issue just of land. This is also an issue of the people that are there that they hate and despise. At least those on the top do and they want them eradicated and removed. So, as much as we try to contend it”€™s about the land, as you’ve identified, they had multiple occasions where they were offered land.

And they”€™d get to have their own place, are no longer refugees, no, no, no, no. “€œWe want this place, and we want them gone, we hate them.”€ And so–

Jerusalem As Israel’s Capital Matters

David:

Which is part of their charter by the way. When they were chartered, and see, another proof that they’re not an ancient thing is they didn’t come up with the charter till 1947-48. That’s their charter for the Palestinian people -really? And you’re claiming that you’re an ancient heir to the land before the Jews were even there? Sorry bro, it doesn’t hold up.

Rick:

Well, special thanks to Jim Garlow for joining us today. Thank you for listening. There are more programs available right now at WallBuildersLive.com. We appreciate you listening today to WallBuilders Live.