Kavanaugh Hearings – 10 Lessons Learned With Dr. Everett Piper: The Kavanaugh hearings have been a big topic in the news of late. Have Americans forgotten the importance of due process? Are these times reminiscent of the witch trials of Europe and the early years of the American colonies? What can young people learn from this? Tune in now to learn more!

Air Date: 10/08/2018

Guest: Dr. Everett Piper

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we talk about today’s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture. Our perspective is always biblical, historical, and constitutional. We believe that’s how you get to the  conclusion on any issue.

And we’re here with David Barton, he’s America’s premier historian and our founder at WallBuilders. Tim Barton’s with us, national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. And my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator.

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And then also at that website you can come alongside us and be a part of WallBuilders. You can make donations – one time or a monthly donation. We’re asking folks to consider just giving up one cup of coffee a month and make a five dollar a month commitment for the next year. That would really help us in our planning across the year and also just spread the good news of what we’re sharing here on the program and help to educate more people on these very important principles.

David, Tim, of course, obviously, the main thing in the news right now is the Kavanaugh hearings. And over the last couple of weeks, man, we’re hearing a lot of people really push back against the nastiness of this thing and just the, really, lack of due process, the whole tone of which this has taken place. I think it’s turned people off and it’s made people wonder – how is this constitutional republic supposed to work in the first place?

How Is This Constitutional Republic Supposed to Work?

Tim:

Yeah, Rick, I think it’s a good point. A lot of people have been very frustrated from what they’ve seen. In fact, it’s interesting on social media I’ve seen a lot of people who have said they’ve traditionally supported and voted the Democrat Party and now they’re rethinking.

And in fact, many have said they’re not going to vote Democrat anymore because of what they’ve seen and how bad it was. I don’t know if in my life I’ve ever cheered for Lindsey Graham or ever appreciated any stand he’s ever taken maybe ever. But oh my goodness did he do such a good job of really kind of culminating what it felt like so many Americans were feeling, kind of their emotional position at that time, and just how despicable the whole thing was.

But, Rick, as you mentioned, even this due process thought it’s very interesting that looking at Kavanaugh and part of the way that just the nation has been divided where everybody is picking a side and you have to be on a side. Picking sides it’s really remove the whole evidence factor where it used to be you are innocent until proven guilty. That’s why there was due process. So, you go through a trial and sides get to present their information and their facts.

Or in this case maybe lack of facts for much of the accusations against Kavanaugh. And instead of people looking at the evidence and assessing the data and information and going, “Wow, okay, so there’s a bunch of baseless, unconfirmed, accusations. We can’t crucify a guy on the basis of unconfirmed accusations.”

Instead you are seeing people throwing away the whole notion of due process, of innocent until proven guilty, and they just want to kind of crucify the bum because he’s on the wrong political party, or doesn’t support what we support, or we’re afraid he’s going to change things that we value in America on the Supreme Court, etc.. It’s very interesting how much we are discarding the very legal system that the Founding Fathers worked incredibly hard to establish in America.

How Barbaric Were Those People!

David:

If you look back to the 1690’s and the due process, or lack there of, that characterized the American judicial system, that’s what led to the witch trials. Now, we look at the witch trials and say, “Man, how barbaric were those people that they didn’t use due process!” Well, lack of due process here in many ways. Now, granted, this did not result in the loss of 27 lives like the witch trials did. But it’s the same lack of due process, same lack of of constitutional protections.

Tim:

Let me point out, too, as you’re saying, the witch trials, and lack of due process, and the 27 people that died in the American witch trials, the American trials were just following the suit of what Europe was doing.

David:

That’s right.  

Tim:

Because that was very, very, common in the witch trials. And, in fact, we’ve identified even on this program before over in Europe there were half a million people that were killed in witch trials in Europe. So, even though it’s an atrocity in America that 27 people died in the witch trials, that was very much standard for Europe and much of the world as it was hearsay accusation.

This is where in America there were Christian leaders who said, “What are we doing?  We’re supposed to have two or three witnesses that come and out of the mouth of them. And actually, you’re supposed to be able to confront your accuser and there can’t be baseless accusations, and you never get to question the person who’s accusing you.”

A lot of these things came forward from religious leaders pointing out how wrong the very judicial process was and actually pointing to even biblical evidence as why we needed to change some of what we did.

But you’re exactly right -it’s really kind of funny the idea of witch trials. And, Rick, you might remember there was a movie many years ago – Monty Python Search for the Holy Grail. And there are witch trials in there and it almost felt that way with Kavanaugh where it’s almost like, “He turned me into Newt. A Newt. It got better.” It’s this idea that–

Witch Trials

Rick:

Hey, that was pretty good, Tim.

Tim:

Well, I felt like I butchered it, but people that know, maybe you can appreciate it. And actually, I’m not endorsing the movie Monty Python Search for the Holy Grail, there are some very inappropriate parts in it. But the idea was it did show even a witch trial in there in a very comedic sense. And basically, they were railroading someone to say–  making up evidence to say, “This person is a witch.” “Well, how do you know?” “Well, she’s got a wart.” And like that was that was the basis of their claim.

This is kind of what we are seeing against Judge Kavanaugh was a lot of baseless claims. And we’re saying basis only in the sense of no evidence was presented to confirm that those accusations actually occurred. Not basis in the sense of maybe nothing ever happened to Dr. or Professor Ford, however is the most appropriate title. It’s not saying that maybe nothing ever happened, but there’s no confirmation that he was the one that ever did anything.

So, even if maybe something did happen there’s just too many holes in these accusations. There’s not the information needed to convict someone in the midst of due process. And yet Americans are seeming to forget, at least many Americans seem to forget, many U.S. senators seem to forget–

Rick:

Yeah, yeah.

Tim:

–that you have to have evidence in these accusations to actually convict somebody. And I was going to say “accuse”, no, they are accusing without evidence. To convict somebody, you have to have evidence. Which, there was just an astounding lack of evidence even when they both were testifying before the Senate committee.

If Americans Knew the Bill of Rights

David:

Well, Tim, from that standpoint, because you mentioned that a lot of senators are acting like– well, there are no evidence, but they’re acting like there doesn’t need to be. And we’ve talked before about how that nationally Americans – only one out of a thousand Americans can list the five freedoms in the First Amendment. Well, let’s take the due process clauses because that’s five amendments of the Bill of Rights, that’s half the Rights. And each one has multiple rights within it. I wonder if Americans can name three of the due process rights out of maybe 10 or 12 that appear in those five amendments.

Rick:

Yeah.

David:

Because it should have been senators saying, “Okay, that’s fine, but we don’t have any evidence here and he is innocent till proven.” Nobody was talking the rhetoric of due process. Well, I say that– Lindsey Graham and others were talking that rhetoric. But the media wasn’t talking the rhetoric of due process. The media was just saying, “Here’s some more gasoline. Let’s pour it on and add flames to it.” Nobody was really saying, “Hey American people, hold off on your opinions here. This is just one side.”

And that’s why you get to compel witnesses on your behalf. That’s why you get to confront your accuser. Because, Tim, as you mentioned the witch trials, what was happening in the entire European system, we’re talking multiple nations, was a lack of due process and it was because the courts were being used to help achieve political ends. They used the courts – “What does the government want done, what does the king want done, what does the parliament want done?” “Okay, we’ll make sure that happens in the courts.”  

The Real Question

David:

So, we’re the ones in America that changed in the court of justice. Who cares what the politicians want, what’s justice here? And that’s not the tone that came out in these hearings.

Now, we saw an article as this stuff was winding down that Everett Piper, who’s the president of Oklahoma Wesleyan, he did a great piece – ten lessons that he learned by watching what happened in those hearings. So much of it does go back to due process, but it was a lot of tongue in cheek stuff as well.  

So, we thought it’d be a lot of fun to have Dr. Piper on and kind of give us some of those 10 lessons that he saw and what happened with the hearings.

Rick:

And even as well when he comes back– when we come back from the break and he’s with us and goes through them, these are things that if you watched these hearings and you really, you knew in your gut this is not good for the country, this is bad. These are things in a tongue in cheek way of saying what the long term bad effect is of what this does to the national conscience, the national conversation, all of those things. It’s pretty powerful. He does it in a funny way, but it’s pretty powerful when you really think about what’s happening.

Stay with us. Dr Everett Piper will be with us when we return on WallBuilders Live.

This Precarious Moment Book

David:

This is David Barton. I want to let about a brand new book we have called This Precarious Moment, Six Urgent Steps That Will Save You, Your family, and Our Country. Jim Garlow and I have co-authored this book and we take six issues that are hot in the culture right now.

Issues that we’re dealing with, issues such as immigration, race relations, our relationship with Israel, the rising generation Millennials, and the absence of the church in the culture wars, and where American heritage is, our godly heritage. We look at all six of those issues right now that are under attack and we give you both Biblical and historical perspective on those issues that provide solutions on what each of us can do right now to make a difference.

These are all problems that are solvable if we’ll get involved. So you can grab the book This Precarious Moment and find out what you can do to make a difference. This Precarious Moment is available at WallBuilders.com.

Rick:

Welcome back. Thanks for being with us. Dr. Everett Piper of Oklahoma Wesleyan University is back with us. Dr. Piper, always a pleasure to have you, sir.

Dr. Piper:

Rick, it’s always my pleasure. Thank you.

Lesson Number One: Never Believe a Man

Rick:

I am shocked. I’ve learned so much from you that I couldn’t believe your lessons from the Kavanaugh hearings. I thought you already knew all these things. I’m surprised that it took the Kavanaugh hearings for you to learn these very important lessons in life. But we thought it’d be great to have you on to share. We, of course, have your article today up on our website for folks to read it there as well. But you learned ten pretty powerful lessons from these hearings.

Dr. Piper:

Yes, what good teachers. The first lesson I learned is women are innately good. They’re not sinful at all. Women always tell the truth. They’re heroic, their emotional balance is perfect. Men are bad, they always lie. Men are toxic and you should never believe a man. You should always believe a woman that’s lesson number one.

Rick:

I don’t see how that’s new to you. I thought– I mean, you’re from the college world, right. You’re in the university ivory tower. I thought you guys had figured that out a long time ago.

Dr. Piper:

Oh, yeah. Tongue in cheek aside and satire aside, it’s just astonishing what we’ve watched.

Rick:

We’ve watched our nation’s Senate divide and balkanise the human race into two different parties – one that is innately honest and the other one that is blatantly dishonest. In other words, because of our biology we are either trusted or not trusted. Lady Justice has had her blindfold ripped off. She can no longer judge on the basis of empirical evidence. She has to look and see the quivering chin, notice the tears, she has to acknowledge the color of skin, she has to acknowledge the gender of the individual, and she’ll make judgments on those things before she ever even hears the facts.

The Facts Don’t Matter

Dr. Piper:

Due process is dead and we are in serious trouble if this is the direction our culture is going. Because you could be accused of it. I could be accused of it. Anybody could be accused of being a witch. And that’s all that matters. They’ll bind us and throw us off the dock. And if we sink, we’re a witch. If we float, we’re a witch. It doesn’t matter what you say or what the facts are. You’re a witch.

Rick:

It’s amazing that we’ve come to this. And it felt exactly like what you’re describing as it played out. But I do want to get to more of your lessons. So, lesson number two.

Dr. Piper:

If men are strong and silent don’t trust them. If they are confident and quiet that means they’re insensitive. Logical, and stoic, and controlled, men are closeted micro aggressors. If, however, you can tempt a man to become emotionally vulnerable you should quickly pivot and suggest that he lacks discipline and restraint. Question his temperament. Make it very clear rather he’s emotionless or emotional, that his masculinity by definition is bad and femininity is good. Lesson number two.

Rick:

Wow. And that’s– as you recite that. And I think back to the questions that Kavanaugh was asked and the just lunacy of how that hearing went. I totally get why he got upset about it. I’m surprised he composed himself as well as he did with the kind of things that were being asked of him and accused, that he was being accused of. It’s just insane. Obviously, we can’t do all ten, so I’m going to let you pick which other ones you want to highlight.

Dr. Piper:

Well, let me highlight this one. Maybe two more if we’ve got time.

Rick:

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

It Doesn’t Matter How You Respond

Dr. Piper:

Number three – if you’re a man, you’re damned. If you maintain your composure, you’re a toxic male. If you react with indignation, your temperament is in question. You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t. It doesn’t matter how you respond.

Rick:

Yeah, we’ve seen what they’ve done with it with the whole Saturday Night Live thing. Now he’s being questioned for not having the right judicial temperament because he actually– imagine, he actually got upset that his family’s name had been destroyed in just a matter of days.

Dr. Piper:

He was accused of being a gang rapist. I can’t imagine why he’d get angry, right? It’s just incredible.

Rick:

Right, right.

Dr. Piper:

Number 10 – this is perhaps– and I changed from being a little cynical, and change from satire, into being serious on number 10. Turns out that the Mike Pence rule isn’t all that bad of an idea after all. You know that rule about accountability, about staying above reproach, that rule that the mainstream media and late night comedians mocked relentlessly, that rule about not putting yourself in a situation that could lead to questions of your integrity. It appears that that rule might actually have some merit.

News Flash

Dr. Piper:

News flash for today’s young men – if you don’t go to parties where a bunch of 16 and 17 year old girls are drinking and getting drunk you likely won’t have to worry about telling the U.S. Senate someday that you didn’t abuse or rape them. And you probably won’t have to explain your juvenile jokes in your yearbook about *. Maybe, just maybe, the moral standards of conservative Christians like Vice President Pence aren’t that bad of an idea after all.

Would Teenagers Even Hear This Message Right Now?

Rick:

I think your point Number 10 is actually the silver lining here that young people, young leaders, young future leaders, kids that are that are serious at 14, 15, 16, years old already knowing “I want to be used by God in a mighty way.” That they would take exactly that lesson that you just mentioned, Number 10, seriously and say, “I’m not going to jeopardize my ability to to lead in this crazy world of accusations just because you happen to be in the wrong place. So, I’m going to go above and beyond and live out the Mike Pence rule.”

Do you think that’s possible? Do you think teenagers would would even even hear that message right now?

Dr. Piper:

Well, I don’t know whether our other teenagers will or won’t. I don’t know whether you or I would have listened to it as forthrightly as we do now.

Rick:

Right, right.

Dr. Piper:

But the lesson is pretty clear and that is– and I’ve had some people challenge me on this, Rick. They said, “Well, Kavanaugh wasn’t at the party that Ford claims he was at.” I’m not disputing that. What I do know is it was painful watching the Senate questioning him on the other parties–

Rick:

Yeah.

News Flash

Dr. Piper:

–the parties that he admitted to being at, those parties where he said he went there to drink. And it was painful watching the Senate dredge up all of this 36 year old stuff about Kavanaugh going to drinking parties when he was a teenager. Again, newsflash young men, if you don’t go you probably aren’t going to have to answer the ugly questions someday.

Rick:

Yeah.

Dr. Piper:

Stay above reproach. Mike Pence and Billy Graham are right.

Rick:

Yeah, yeah. That’s a fantastic, fantastic, point and an excellent one. In the article– I don’t want to end the interview just yet because I also want to ask you about just what struck you in terms of the–

And I think President Trump actually said some things about this yesterday, or day before yesterday, whenever it was, last week, I don’t know – it all runs together now. But just the hypocrisy of the people asking these questions. You’ve been in this intellectual debate over the transgender thing, the no morals with sex and everything. These senators that were asking this are the same people that are supporting the concept of sex with anyone, and anything, at any time, no standard, anything goes. And yet they’re questioning him in the ways that they are. How did people stomach that hypocrisy?

Dr. Piper:

Again, I know it’s been said *, but I can’t help but say it again. This is the party, these are the people, of Bill Clinton. This is the party and these are the people of Ted Kennedy. And this is the party that says if you drive your girlfriend into the lake and leave her there to drowned that that can be excused and forgiven. This is the party that says when your president has sex with an intern, by the way, a young lady that he has power and authority over. By definition this can’t be consensual because it’s the president of the United States imposing his will and his power upon a 21 year old intern.

The Hypocrisy Is Thick

Dr. Piper:

This is the party that says all of that is okay, it’s none of our business, private life should never be discussed in a public forum. And now they turn on a dime and they start dredging up 36 year old rumors about a potential Supreme Court judge just because they fear he might actually conserve the Constitution. The hypocrisy is thick and we should not be ashamed or hesitant to call them out on it and to ask them to explain themselves on how in the world they can hold these views when they don’t hold their own to the same.

Rick:

And let’s not forget those same Democrats, that same party, defended Clinton’s actions even though there was actual physical evidence of what he had done.

Dr. Piper:

Yes.

Rick:

And totally different, a different set of facts and circumstances and yet they defended him. It’s unbelievable. Well, hopefully that lesson Number 10 will be the one folks take home with them. But I guess the last thing I would ask you is, can a man like this that, from what I can tell, despite some of the probably stupid partying as a kid drinking that everyone on that on that Senate dias probably did the exact same thing or worse.

But despite that, this guy obviously, to me, came across as extremely genuine, extremely hurt, and had made decisions as a kid about his sex, not having sex, being a virgin, that I think they despise him partly because of that.

Can a guy like this, if he is approved by the Senate, can he ever rebuild his reputation?

Dr. Piper:

Time heals wounds, I suppose. Here we are, what, some 30 years after the Clarence Thomas hearings and he’s still suffering a bruised reputation where some people choose to believe the Anita Hill stuff. And many of us have move beyond it and we consider it to be just some sort of fabrication, a political hit. I think you’re still going to have a divided country, Rick. I think you’re still going to people that believe him and you’re going to have those who choose not to.

Plow Through the Nonsense and Lead Anyway

Dr. Piper:

But as Christian leaders we’ve got to decide to plow through that nonsense and lead anyway. And I remember one of my favorite quotes of the day, and I know it’s yours too, and that’s Bonhoeffer’s “Not to speak is to speak and not to act is to act. Silence in the face of evil is evil itself. God will not hold us guiltless.” I don’t care what the persecution is. We’re still obligated to lead, to act, to speak. And if we remain silent we’re culpable in the problem. We’ve got to be able to weather the storm.

The best way to do it is to stay above reproach so that when the arrows start flying you at least have a shield or two to put up because you can say, and you can prove, that just isn’t so. I don’t do that. Pence is the perfect example of weathering the storm. Yes, he’ll be criticized, but nobody’s challenging him right now about being sexually illicit in his lifestyle or some of these other silly things that Kavanaugh’s being accused of right now because I don’t think Pence has much to go after there.

Rick:

Yeah, yeah. No, that’s a fantastic, fantastic, point and I want to drive that home before I let you go. So that, even in the face of all of these kind of things, to people out there, especially Christian leaders that have been considering entering the arena and getting in these political battles to help save their communities, and states, and our nation, that are now going, “Man, I don’t know if I want to be attacked like that, or put my family through that, or I remember that stupid thing I did when I was 15, or whatever it is.”

What I heard you saying is too much is at stake. We have to fight this fight no matter what. Don’t cower down to these kind of attacks and still move forward and be in the fight.

Young People, Be Careful

Dr. Piper:

Absolutely. And our young kids need to remember that what you put on Twitter and what you put on Instagram will come back to haunt you. So, be careful.

Rick:

That’s right. That’s right. Good stuff. Dr. Piper, God bless you, brother. Thank you for weathering the storm, thank you for being in the fight, thank you for your commentary, and thanks for coming back on the program.

Dr. Piper:

Thank you.

Rick:

And we’re back now with David and Tim Barton. Thanks to a Dr. Everett Piper for taking time to be with us today. Thanks for a great article. David, Tim, so many– like we said – some funny things in there, but some very real things in there about the impact that this has on the country’s conscience and how people act going forward. But he had some points that could potentially have some silver lining there in terms of a positive effect of saying to young people, “Hey, someday that might be you. Think about your actions right now.”

Tim:

Yeah, and it’s worth pointing out that all 10 of them are actually pretty accurate assessments. At least those nine, the tongue in cheek. It really is a very good article. But you’re right – the 10th one, the lessons to be learned, that Mike Pence rule that was often scoffed, it’s now making a lot more sense.

And one of the things that we’ve told young people forever is, “Look, the internet’s forever. If you put something out there it will always be out there.” And I think this is a really interesting example of that because you’re throwing something out there that he’s having to deal with that there wasn’t even really that kind of evidence. And in this day and age when everything’s recorded, when everything’s digitized, it’s easy for that evidence to last a long time.

The Heart of the Issue

Tim:

So, it really is something that we need to be prudent and walk in a lot of wisdom. And young people need to be thinking about that is, “What is it going to look like when I’m an adult, when I’m a parent, when I am a leader” – whatever it is God’s called and gifted you to do. You have to live your life with that thought purpose and intention so that you don’t get sidetracked and end up doing a bunch of dumb stuff that you are later going to regret and might be used against you.

David:

And that really is the issue. Because back then, whether he did anything at all with Dr. Ford is irrelevant because he was at a number of drinking parties. So, being at those drinking parties, that’s part of what they’re using with the witch trial to burn on evidence to say, “Hey, your character was such that it was certainly plausible because you had all these drinking parties.” And back then it’s like everybody was doing, “This is my friends, I want to go hang out with them.” Not even thinking of what that would mean 10 years, or 20 years, or 40 years, or 50 years, or whatever it is – 36 years in this case, but looking down the road.

And I was reminded of something that Dr. Benjamin Rush told his son James. He used two quotes that I thought were really, really, good. And one he quoted from Sir John Baird who was a Philadelphia merchant. But when his son went out to travel the world here’s the advice he gave his son, “Remember, while you see the world, the world sees you.” And it’s like, “Stop thinking about yourself. Think about how other people will see this.”

And then the second one he gave his son was, “Remember you have a character to lose.” “You have character right now, but what you do can cause that character to be lost and your reputation be taken away from you. So, act in such a way that you will not lose your character in the future by what you do now.” Those are good pieces looking forward.

We have 1 Thessalonians 5:22. In the King James it says, “Abstain from all appearance of evil.” Now, technically, it actually says “abstain from all actual evil” but it’s good advice to abstain from things that even appear to be things that would hurt your reputation.

Kavanaugh Hearings – 10 Lessons Learned With Dr. Everett Piper

David:

So, it was great stuff. And, as Tim said, as Dr. Piper said, what you put on Twitter and Instagram will come back to haunt you. So, it’s just a good reminder to be mature. And even though you’re kind of bulletproof and think this is funny right now, people three years from now may not think it’s as funny as you do. And that joke that you have, or the comment you made, or the picture you posted, or where you went with other folks. I mean, you just need to be mature, and think ahead, and hopefully that will be a good lesson that comes out of this.

Rick:

Good wisdom. Special thanks to Dr. Everett Piper for joining us today from Oklahoma Wesleyan University. Thank you for listening. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.