North Korea, Leaders, Communism Fascism, and Socialism: The WallBuilders team interviews former Congressman Bob McEwen regarding his thoughts on why North Korea is not listed as a state sponsor of terrorism. They also discuss world leaders, former presidents, and how many college students are being drawn to socialism, communism, and even fascism. In addition, we learn some of the negative outcomes of socialism and communism on a society as we examine North Korea.

Air Date: 12/4/2017

Guests: Bob McEwen, David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton

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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast.  However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture

Rick:

You”€™ve found your way to the intersection of faith and the culture.  It”€™s called WallBuilders Live! We”€™re talking about today”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture, all of it from a Biblical, historical, and Constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton, he”€™s America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Tim Barton”€™s with us, he”€™s a national speaker, pastor, and president of WallBuilders. My name is Rick Green.  I’m a former Texas state legislator.

You can find out more about us at our websites – WallBuildersLive.com and also WallBuilders.com.

Later in the program, our good friend former Congressman Bob McEwen will be with us. Right now, guys, let’s talk about that intersection of faith and the culture, how bad the culture can get when you have a lack of faith, and certainly when you have a lack of moral leaders. Certainly as a nation when America is weak the world becomes more chaotic, communism grows, evil grows.

Bad Moral Leadership in Different Forms of Government

David:

You can take that lack of moral leadership, but if you combine it with a bad structural system then you really exacerbate the problem. In other words, if you put bad moral leadership in a republican form of government such as we have, we still have some checks and balances that can at least limit some of that damage. But if you take that bad moral leadership and place it in a different form of government such as communism, or socialism, or fascism, or some other form of government, man, you’ve put that bad moral leadership on steroids. You have injected it with all sorts of hyper superpower. And so even not only moral leadership, but even the form of government you have has a great bearing on how evil that nation can become.

Tim:

Well, and the form of government also encourages or discourages certain behavior which would then encourage the evil of your leaders, the evil, perhaps, in the behavior of the people.  Because whatever you incentivize, right, whatever you encourage, you’re going to get more of that behavior, whatever you discourage you get less of that behavior.

So if you live in a government that discourages hard work, that does not reward integrity, that doesn’t reward certain behaviors, and rewards instead different behaviors, then you’re going to get whatever you are incentivizing, whatever you are rewarding. And in communism, it doesn”€™t reward the hard worker.  It doesn’t reward a person with integrity, it doesn”€™t reward the person with ingenuity.  Instead, what it does it takes from the people that are the most productive, the most prosperous, and ultimately the government takes it all.  

Then everybody is under them and their minions and so, “€œI’m going to control what you get, and control what you get, but you have to work this, and you have to do that.”€ So they dictate who you are and what you do. And one of the things the Bible tells us is, “€œWithout a vision, the people perish.”€

If you live under communism, you can’t have a vision. Your vision is not something that you can dream, and have a goal or a pursuit.  It’s directly mandated, dictated, to you by that government.

And we could talk even beyond communism, right?  Whether it’s socialism which is a huge deal today. And I don’t remember — there was a famous leader who said, “€œThere’s never been a socialist nation that didn’t become communist after a time.”€ Certainly, I think that’s true because if socialism fails you need somebody to solve the socialism problem which is where a strong leader emerges.

David:

Let’s sit there for just a minute because what happens is, socialism is where everything is owned by nobody except the people themselves. It’s a group ownership kind of stuff.  You take and share it all.

But communism is where the group is owned by a small group and the entire nation, all their assets, other capital, all they’re worth, all their work, it doesn’t go to all the people to be split.  It goes to a small group who then divvies it out.

Tim:

The leaders.

David:

A small group of leaders.

Tim:

So not a small group of our favorite people right.

David:

That”€™s right.

Tim:

So, it would be like parents saying, “€œHey our kids get.”€–

No, no, no.  You don’t get to choose what small group. This is where the government and that * from the top it all comes to us and then we’ll decide who should get what.

It”€™s a Very Authoritarian Form of Government

David:

It”€™s a very authoritarian form of government. You will end up with a politburo kind of thing like the Soviet”€™s had with a Stalin up top, or a Lenin, or a Marx, or you’ll end up with a Hitler up top.  Even though you can say that’s fascism.

Nonetheless, it is socialism that takes and has a party. It’s a small party and it only represents a small percentage of the people.  But it has all the power and it puts usually the most onerous person at the top. And it’s unfortunate today, people think of communism, especially young people think of communism, as an old historical relic and it’s not.  20 percent of the world today is ruled by communist leaders.

Tim:

And you say that communism puts this onerous person up top. Well, really, the onerous person gets up top because they were onerous.

David:

That’s right. That”€™s right.

Tim:

It”€™s not that the people said, “€œHey, we want a really mean dictator who is going to look out for himself, and his own, only his cabinet.”€ No, no, it was because of that guy, or that woman as the case might have been.  

But generally it’s the man, right. Because of his lack of integrity, because of the kind of the scruples of his life where he is very much motivated to be deceitful and do behind the scenes work to get things to his advantage.  Where he comes to that position, not because he’s a man of great character.  Generally, because he didn’t have much character he was able to climb to that position by working backroom deals to become the dictator over the nation.

Rick:

And that system rewards that kind of person.

It’s Not Just Backroom Deals

David:

And it’s not just backroom deals. I mean, if you look back to the 1930s 40s and 50s with Israel.  Before Israel became a nation in 1948, they were under what was called the British Mandate. The UN had said Great Britain has the authority to rule Palestine.  So Palestine was going to be split by the British into a place for Arabs and a place for Jews.

Arabs didn’t want the Jews there, but they had what was called a grand Muftah.  The Grand Muftah was the Muslim leader of Palestine. And so the Muslim leader of Palestine – Husseini was his name.  He took special effort to wipe out every opponent, every threat to his power.

He consolidated all power so that he was the sole leader of Muslims in Palestine. And from that position I mean he ruled a ruthless hand.  He went after the Jews ruthlessly. When they finally chased him out because of all of his ruthlessness, he sided with Hitler and Mussolini and signed a PAC to get the Jews out of Palestine.

Should Hitler and Mussolini have won, they would have wiped all the Jews out of Palestine. So he’s ruthless enough that he can kill all of his opponents and he’s the last one left standing.

So, the leaders you get at the top of the communist nation are typically the ones who are the most murderous and have the least amount of morals.  That’s why if you look in the 20th century alone, just the communist rulers, you take a handful of them, they’re responsible for more than 100 million murders in the 20th century alone.

Tim:

Which certainly raises the question then.  Why hasn’t America done a better job of opposing some of these communist dictators, right?  Some of these communist regimes?

Rick:

Right.

Tim:

Why hasn’t it been so easy for us to have the moral clarity to go, “€œHey that’s wrong. That’s evil what they’re doing to the people.”€ Why haven’t we had the moral clarity to be able to speak out to this?

Rick:

And the guy to answer that question is Congressman Bob McEwen.  As we said, he”€™s coming on later in the program. And we’ve actually gotten a listener question that is on point to that dealing with specifically North Korea. So, Congressman Bob McEwen will be with us when we come back from the break and field that question for us.

Stay with us. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

Moment From American History

This is Tim Barton with another moment from American history. As the American War for Independence began, the president of Yale was the Reverend Naphtali Daggett. When New Haven, the home of Yale, came under attack about a hundred citizens rushed out to meet the British.

The Reverend Daggett galloped by them on horseback, his clearable robes flowing behind him in the wind. He took up a solitary position atop a hill. The 2,500 British soon put the townsfolk to flight but the Reverend Daggett continued to stand alone firing down on the advancing troops.

A British officer confronted him, “€œWhat are you doing there you old fool? If I let you go, will you ever fire again on the troops of his majesty?”€ Nothing more likely was the preacher’s reply. America’s early pastors personally confronted danger and courageously led their communities.

For more information on Pastor Daggett and other colonial Patriots, go to WallBuilders.com.

Rick:

Welcome back.  Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Our good friend, former Congressman Bob McEwen back with us.  Always good to have you, sir. Thanks for coming back on.

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

The honor is mine anytime, Rick.

Rick:

Hey, we’re usually talking economics with you, but the question we got from the audience has to do with North Korea which actually we’ve talked with you about economics in North Korea in the past in the comparison of the outcome of North Korea and South Korea. But this particular question had to do with the young man that was finally released and then died very soon after being released and the brutal treatment that he received there in North Korea.  The question is why is North Korea not listed as a state sponsor of terrorism by our government?  So David said Congressman McHugh and on and let’s get an answer to this.

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

Well, you know, I just– I’ve not been able to fully understand some of the decisions that the Bush administration made and when Clinton gave them all this money.  Supposedly they were going to move away from making nuclear weapons. And we gave them, I believe, six billion dollars which is about 50 percent of their GDP and they then continued to lie.

So, then when Bush and Condoleezza Rice came in, they went over and played with them a bit, and gave them some more money, made some more deals, and agreed to remove them as a terrorist organization. So then of course, Obama only made the situation worse.

Rick:

Yeah.

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

So, now that we understand where they were, that they were lying and playing with us every time, they had no intention of doing it.  They were becoming a nuclear power and it was the only thing they intended to do.  Anybody with any insight could see what was coming.

Now that Donald Trump is in charge, he is now bringing pressure on them to try to remove that.  He’s put them back on the list of terrorist nations, which of course, they are. All of the nuclear that”€™s being done is primarily being headed by the Iranians. There are two– the Clinton administration gave the green light more or less to North Korea to develop nuclear weapons. The Obama administration did the same thing for Iran.

Trump Has To Mop Up The Mess Left By Previous Administrations

So, I believe that during Trumps first administration, during the first four years here, he’s going to have to deal with a nuclear power both in North Korea and in Iran.  They are both terrorist nations committed to the destruction of the United States and Israel and all that Western civilization entails.  It’s only fortunate that at least we have a president now to try to mop up a little bit better. If we hadn’t gotten ourselves into this situation in the first place.

Rick:

You’ve worked with and seen, how many presidents? You went into Congress what, late 70s early 80s?

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

Jimmy Carter was president when I arrived, but I had, I was on the campaign team for Reagan in “€˜68 and then volunteered with Nixon. And during that other time so– and worked on Capitol Hill when Nixon and then Ford were in office. But when I came as a member, Carter was still in the White House and then we had Reagan and Bush.

Rick:

So you’ve seen a lot of different approaches to these international threats. What’s your scorecard, I guess, or grade for president Trump at this point? You sound more confident than I’ve heard you in a while.

President Trump”€™s Scorecard

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

I’ve spoken to some people as you know, Ed Meese, the former chief of staff for Ronald Reagan.  He and I host a prayer breakfast once a week for ambassadors when they’re hosted in Washington. And I was just talking to some folks in South Korea since the trip that President Trump made.  They are extremely, extremely, excited about President Trump recognizing the situation and being bold and strong.

Rick:

Yeah.

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

People feel nervous when there’s a lack of leadership. So, you saw the 56 leaders arrive in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia when President Trump went there having been.  The chaos that was in the wake of the Obama Administration in North Africa and elsewhere. So, wherever he goes it’s very interesting the response that they recognize a leader and I believe this guy is a leader.

Rick:

Yeah, yeah. So it’s reassuring especially as the hotbeds of chaos around the world which you’ve always had to some extent.  But, man, when you’re talking about nuclear power in the hands of folks like North Korea, very, very, concerning to say the least.  And to have a– I mean, would you go as far as to say he”€™s Reagan-esque or Reagan-like in his approach on the foreign policy issues?

People Do Not Respect You When You Don’t Respect Your Own Country

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

I think very much so in that people do not respect you when you don’t respect your own country.

Rick:

Yeah.

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

When Obama thinks that he’s going to make friends by trashing our country on foreign soil as he did over, and over, and over, again.  One of the worst speeches in the history of mankind was that speech in Cairo in which he talks that all the developments have been taking place because of Islam.  And that the United States had been a source of evil in the world.  It was downhill from there for eight years.

Rick:

Yeah, that was early in his presidency.

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

That was the summer of 2009.

Rick:

Yeah.

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

People should go back and watch it.  They really should. You should google Barack Obama Cairo 2009 and see what he laid out – where he stood between the Islamic world and the United States.

But now that we have a president who believes in America again.  Everybody, even the Philippine dictator, and then you saw the way all of those folks in southeast Asia just stayed around him all the time and wanted their picture taken, wanted.  They, he was a rock star at that * conference. And of course, the Chinese recognize that he’s no, you can’t.  I guess when you grow up trying to build in New York City you get a tough hide.  

Rick:

Right.

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

And he knows when people are trying to baffle him or stiff him. And I think he’s exactly what we needed this time about it.

Rick:

Yeah.

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

No doubt about it.

Rick:

No doubt. Last question for you.  I’ve had conversations with generals and others about how long it takes for him to get good generals in place and that sort of thing. What about this on foreign policy, state department ambassadors, that sort of thing?  Is that the same kind of thing where it takes almost you know a year or a year and a half into the presidency before he really gets his team in place? Or is that one that’s been a little quicker?

The Pentagon Can Be Done More Rapidly

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

No, the Pentagon can be done more rapidly. They cashiered, that is, they shoved out a lot of good people under Obama.  But that could be restored more quickly than the State Department.

The State Department – it is a cesspool that has been procreated after itself.  And it, to quote Ed Meese again in his book on Reagan, he has the clips of where the president of the United States made a statement.  Then it shows where an ambassador a U.S. ambassador is sent out from the State Department and said to all of them, “€œYou don’t need to pay any attention to that, our policy has not changed.”€

So they think that they’re an entity unto themselves. But I do think they might have just met their match in this guy.  So we”€™ll see.

Rick:

I do too. Always a wealth of information. Congressman McEwen, bless you brother.  Thank you for your time today.

Former Congressman Bob McEwen:

You’re the best. Anytime, Rick, all the best.

Rick:

Stay with us folks. We’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Patriot Academy

Have you noticed the vacuum of leadership in America? We’re looking around for leaders of principle to step up and too often no one is there. God is raising up a generation of young leaders with a passion for impacting the world around them. They’re crying out for the mentorship and leadership training they need. Patriot Academy was created to meet that need. Patriot Academy graduates now serve in state capitals around America, in the halls of Congress, in business, in the film industry, in the pulpit, in every area of the culture. They’re leading effectively and impacting the world around them.

Patriot Academy is now expanding across the nation and now is your chance to experience this life changing week that trains champions to change the world. Visit PatriotAcademy.com for dates and locations. Our core program is still for young leaders 16 to 25 years old, but we also now have a citizen track for adults. So visit the website today to learn more. Help us fill the void of leadership in America. Join us in training champions to change the world at PatriotAcademy.com.

Rick:

Welcome back.  Thanks for staying with us on WallBuilders Live. Special thanks to Congressman Bob McEwen.  Always good to have him on the program and I always learn a ton.

In fact, we started with North Korea and end up learning about all of these other things as well. So, special thanks – appreciate him coming on the program.

Back with David and Tim now.  And, guys, I”€™m glad you suggested we get Bob on that particular question.

Clinton Gave Money To North Korea – 50 Percent Of Their GDP

David:

Well, you know, Bob had so many points of interest as he always does.  But I had no clue that the amount of money that Clinton gave to North Korea was 50 percent of their entire GDP.

Rick:

That was amazing.

David:

I mean he saved the nation.  It would have gone under. McEwen’s told us I think since the Korean War how many millions of North Koreans have starved to death – unbelievable under their leadership. And it’s because when you give money to a communist nation, it doesn’t go to the people.  It goes right into the hands of the leader – whoever he is for whatever he wants to do with it.

The Dictator Will Always Live A Lavish Life

Tim:

Which, by the way, one of the things that our listeners — not while you’re driving, but you can Google if you’re at a red light and in some states.  I think even in our state, you might not be able to use your smart device at a red light.  

Anyway, when you have a chance Google the satellite imaging of North Korea versus South Korea at night.  What they’ll show you is where there is electricity.

And so talking about the fact that in a communist nation they don’t enjoy the same level of prosperity.  However, the dictator will always live a lavish life always in communism because they’re the ones that the money comes to them.  It’s centralized through them.

So if you look at North Korea on satellite imaging at night there’s only one place where there is any kind of centralized electricity in all of North Korea and that’s where the dictator lives.

The rest of the people – abject poverty, struggling to make it, struggling to survive.  But the dictator is living a high and mighty life, loving life, enjoying it, living high on the hog.  But it’s because he’s taking from all the people.

David:

And so what happens is that infusion of cash that Clinton gave them is what kept their nuclear program alive. You would not have them barking like a dog at the United States down how they’re going to blow us up, and how they’re going to blow up Japan, and how they’re going to do it.  That would not be occurring had not Clinton gave them a large amount of money back then to keep their nuclear program alive.

In the Near Future We Might Have the Same Conversation About Iran

Tim:

Which it might be interesting to note that it could be in the near future we have the same conversation about Iran.

David:

Oh I was just going to–

Rick:

Right.

David:

I was exactly going to make that point. Is there nothing we can learn from history that might tell us what’s going to occur with Iran? Because Iran was buckling under because of all the economic pressure.  Obama lifts that, gives them 150 billion dollars.

If you think that went into the hands of the people to improve that nation, going back to Bill Clinton, you’ve been inhaling as he said he didn’t back then. And for those who don’t know he said, “€œYeah, I smoke marijuana but I didn’t inhale.”€ So you look at what’s happened there and that is a perfect example what goes on.

And by the way, while we’re here, anybody notice that a couple weeks ago polling came out for those who are currently in college.  For those who are currently in college, students in polling prefer communism, socialism, and fascism.  Any of the three to a free market economic system.

Rick:

Scary.

Tim:

Well, because we’re told that capitalism is evil, right? Capitalism produces poverty not like the great communism of North Korea where they’re living in such luxury.

David:

Or of the former Soviet Union, or Vietnam.

52% of College Students Would Prefer Communism, Socialism, or Fascism

Tim:

Oh, it”€™s America, it”€™s capitalist.  Yeah, so, Bob McEwen, even capitalism is one of the best to speak to it.  But he’ll point out that there’s no system of government that has raised more people out of abject poverty and given them a chance to be financially successful and stable then capitalism has. And yet you’re right, fifty two percent of college students statistically identify they would prefer socialism, communism, fascism, to a free market economic system because they think, “€œWell, the free market that’s evil. Communism though – that’s okay.”€

David:

Well, the question I would have for any of them is, “€œOkay, all you have to do to prove your point.  Show me one example of a communist, a socialist, or a fascist nation that has produced both prosperity and freedom for its people. You show me that and maybe you’ve got an argument.”€  But you can’t even show me one nation across history that has been able do that.

And so this again goes back to how bad education is right now. We don’t even base it on fact or reality.  That’s a real problem and that’s been our problem with dealing with nations like North Korea and Iran as well.

Rick:

Quick break.  We’ll be right back. Stay with us.  More on Bob McEwen’s take on North Korea and why communism never, ever, ever, ever, ever, has worked.  Socialism has never, ever, ever, worked. And as Bob didn’t say in this interview but usually says, “€œFreedom principles only work every time they”€™re tried.”€

Stay with us. We’ll be right back on WallBuilders Live.

Biographical Sketches

Hi friends! This is Tim Barton of WallBuilders.This is a time when most Americans don’t know much about American history or even heroes of the faith. I know, oftentimes as parents, we”€™re trying to find good content for our kids to read.

If you remember back in the Bible, the Book of Hebrews it has the Faith Hall of Fame, where they outlined the leaders of faith that had gone before them. Well, this is something that as Americans we really want to go back and outline some of these heroes not just of American history, but heroes of Christianity and our faith as well.

I wanted to let you know about some biographical sketches we have available on our website. One is called, “€œThe Courageous Leaders Collection“€ and this collection includes people like Abigail Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Francis Scott Key, George Washington Carver, Susanna Wesley, even the Wright brothers.

There’s a second collection called, “€œHeroes of History“€ in this collection you read about people like Benjamin Franklin, Christopher Columbus, Daniel Boone, George Washington, Harriet Tubman, the list goes on and on.

This is a great collection for your young person to have and read. And it’s a providential view of American and Christian history. This is available at WallBuilders.com.

Moment From American History

This is David Barton with another moment from America’s history. Crime is one of America’s most serious problems today. Its effects reach not only the direct victims of this violence but even those who have not been attacked. The concern for crime has not been limited to this century however, our Founding Fathers were also concerned about it.

Yet, the effects of crime unquestionably were much less in their generation. So what was their deterrent to crime? Signer of the Constitution James McHenry answered that question.

He explained, “€œThe Holy Scriptures can alone secure to society order and peace. In vain without the Bible we increase penal laws and draw protections around our institutions. Bibles are strong defenses, where they abound men cannot pursue wicked courses.”€

Founding Father James McHenry believed that widely teaching the Bible was the best means to deter crime. For more information on God’s hand in American history contact WallBuilders at 1-800-8-REBUILD.

Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us today.

We talked about how communism and socialism don’t work. Tim, David, we always — at Patriot Academy we make sure the students know every time the word socialism is even spoken by any speaker, in any context, you’ll hear all 100 and whatever students say — “€œsocialism.”€  You’ll hear that word and then it will be, “€œIs bad very, very bad.”€

It always is, guys.  And, David, you were right on.  Show me one nation where it’s worked and that’ll change our tune, but it hasn’t.

Teach Your Children

Tim

Well, and, Rick, one of the things that are important.  As you’re pointing out at Patriot Academy, that you have the students learn to say this. You know, one of the reasons they even braced this idea this mantra that socialism, communism, fascism is good is because they haven’t learned it’s bad.

And so this ought to be something, even as parents that we start indoctrinating our kids with positive truth even when they’re young and, you know, how bad socialism- socialism is so bad. This ought to be something coming out of our mouth quite often – not because the realities don’t present themselves when you look at them, but because that’s not what our kids are presented with. So when they go to school they hear socialism is so good.  They go to college professors go, “€œOh socialism is the best.  It gives freedom for people.  It’s fair for people.”€

We need to start teaching our kids the truth before they start ingesting all the lies. That way the truth has a chance to inoculate them from these lies that are coming up.

Rick:

That”€™s good.

People Do Not Respect You If You Do Not Respect Your Own Country

David:

You know one of the things that Bob pointed out that I had not even thought about is how well Trump is being respected by leaders across the world.  Whether it was Southeast Asia, whether it was the Arabic nations, wherever it was. Nobody has seen him as the American press is portraying him as some lone ranger renegade cowboy, impulsive figure.  You can’t trust him.  His finger”€™s on the nuclear button.  That’s not the way it is. But I love the quote that Bob said.  He said, “€œPeople do not respect you if you do not respect your own country.”€

Tim:

That was so good.  That is so good.

David:

Bingo. And that’s exactly where we are.  He does — you have a leader now, as he said, anybody who wants to hear a really bad speech to explain why things were so goofy go back and listen to that Cairo speech of 2009 of Obama where he starts from the very first apologizing for America and talking about how bad we’ve been. But you got Trump who really does believe in America and, man, what a difference that makes with leaders across the world.

Bob McEwen – Politics Easy As Pie

Rick:

Well, folks, you can learn more about Bob McEwen.  You can get Politics Easy As Pie at our website, WallBuilders.com. It’s available there.  We have a video and book on that – right, guys?

Listen To Today’s Podcast To Learn More About North Korea:

Tim:

I think we just have the DVD, the MP3, MP4 on our website.  Politics Easy As Pie, but it’s one of the best teachings on economics and government you will ever get anywhere. So absolutely heartily recommend that for everybody listening any age group. Easy to understand but a phenomenal teaching.

Rick:

Yes, simple, easy, to understand .  Takes what is normally difficult concepts – he just does a masterful job making them easy to understand. Check that out at WallBuilders.com today. There”€™s a lot more tools for you as well. Again, thanks to Bob McEwen for joining us. Thank you for listening.  You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.