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Lawmakers Are Trying To Control Pastors In The Pulpit: In today’s program, we have a special guest, Jim Garlow, on to share the recent laws being made which will negatively impact the Christain community. This is exactly what we have been warning about concerning freedom of conscience and freedom of speech. Tune in now to learn more!

Air Date: 07/22/2019

Guest: Jim Garlow

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.


Faith And The Culture


Welcome to the intersection of faith in the culture. This is WallBuilders Live where we’re talking about today’s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture. Always from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. 

We’re having that conversation today with David Barton. He’s America’s premier historian and our founder at WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker and President of WallBuilders, and my name is Rick Green. I’m a former Texas state legislator, national speaker, and author. 

You can find out more about all three of us at Wallbuilderslive.com. That’s where you get a list of our stations. You can get some great news each day right there on the website. You can also click on that donate button and make that contribution where a listener supported program.

When you as a listener support us, it allows us not only to bring these great programs to you but also to expand them across the country to train pastors and legislators and young leaders. All the different things we’re doing to equip and inspire and educate Americans to restore America’s constitutional Republic. 

You get to be a part of that by making that contribution. 

California Legislation To Control What Pastors Can Say

Later in the program, we’re going to have Jim Garlow with us. Pastor Jim Garlow to talk about some legislation in California. David, Tim this is exactly the thing we’ve been warning about that we would go to. It’s what Canada has done as well.

When you start you know having the thought police control what’s OK to be said and actually start telling pastors what they can say or not say. Now, it’s actually becoming a legislative issue to control what pastors can actually preach from the pulpit.


Yeah. In California, they have a measure out there now legislative measure that says hey pastors here’s what you say about LGBTQ issues from the pulpit. Here’s the guidance we’re giving you, here’s what you need to say on that issue. Now, I will bet you that most of those who support this issue, also support what they considered to be separation church and State. 

The Separation Of Church And State

What they don’t know is separation church and State was instituted, and created if you will, it was recognized so that the government could not tell the Church what to do in any issue. That’s what it was supposed to be. 

They’ve twisted it into a secularization thing that says the government can tell the Church what they can or can’t do. No. That is when you need separation church and State. That’s what’s needed right now. 

This is the time when I believe in separation church and State; is to keep the government from telling the Church what it can or can’t do. In this case, the government of California has no business telling any pastor anywhere in the State what they should be saying from their pulpit at any point in time ever. Period. End of story. 

But that’s what this measure does. 

So one of the pastors we know in California pastor Jim Garlow who for a number years pastored Skyline Church in San Diego, one of the more successful churches in California. He’s the guy who actually was probably the chief voice and leader of the marriage amendment in California where the people of California voted.

They wanted marriage to between a man and a woman. Jim’s the perfect guy to address this and tell us what’s happening in California with this issue. 


Quick break. Jim Garlow will be with us when we return right here on WallBuilders Live.

This Precarious Moment Book


This is David Barton. I want to let about a brand new book we have called This Precarious Moment: Six Urgent Steps That Will Save You, Your Family, and Our Country. Jim Garlow and I have co-authored this book, and we take six issues that are hot in the culture right now. 

Issues that we’re dealing with, issues such as immigration, race relations, our relationship with Israel, the rising generation Millennials, and the absence of the Church in the culture wars, and where American heritage is our godly heritage.

We look at all six of those issues right now that are under attack, and we give you both Biblical and historical perspective on those issues that provide solutions on what each of us can do right now to make a difference. 

These are all problems that are solvable if we’ll get involved. So, you can grab the book, This Precarious Moment and find out what you can do to make a difference. This Precarious Moment is available at WallBuilders.com.


Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us today. Our good friend Pastor Jim Garlow is with us. Author of many books including a recent one with David Barton called This Precarious Moment. We’ll have links today at WallBuilders Live to make it easy to get it. 

Dr. Garlow, always good to have you brother. Thanks for your time today


Joy to be on with you, my friend.


Welcome back to the States. You’ve been traveling overseas for a while.


Yeah. Just came back from 31 days in Ukraine, Israel, Geneva, Switzerland for meetings and then Amsterdam, Netherlands and the Hague.


Wow, that’s a whirlwind in a short period of time. You know, it has to give you an appreciation for the American system when you see things outside of our country but maybe some warnings too.


It’s really interesting – we see overseas glimmers of hope. Strong people standing under very difficult situations. But we also see European, particularly western Europe in more advanced stages of decay than what we witness here in the United States. 

We have this sort of sickening feeling in your stomach that they’re only about 10-15 years ahead of us or less perhaps. We observe a lot of things that are of deep concern to us. At the same time, I praise God for those who are willing to stand under great pressure and frankly persecution and to stand for the truth of God 

The Assembly Concurrent Resolution 99


Amen. No doubt.

Well, back here at home, for part of that time that you were gone California your home state dealing with in fact I was just out there at a church last weekend, and the pastor was talking about this Assembly Concurrent Resolution 99. 

The way I understand it, it’s actually calling on pastors to completely change their message completely, and ignore the Biblical perspective of sexual behavior and go with what’s popular today.


I have the bill directly in front of me right now. The language is so subtly written. Very skillful written but it’s basically using all kinds of the classic buzzwords like compassion. That’s another way for those who don’t know, don’t be biblical. 

‘Matters from a place of love, compassion, knowledge of the psychological and other harms conversion therapy for the people of California, etc.’ So it starts with that and then it goes through about 10 or 12 or so whereas paragraphs. 

It tucks in there that, of course, anybody who proclaims biblical truth, that’s the reason for the high suicide rate.

They try to lay that on the Church, and then it ends with a calling for, ‘be it resolved that the people of California counselors, pastors, religious workers, educators, legislators, institutions of California with great moral influence especially its churches, the next language there, model equitable treatment of all people of the state.’ 

They Are Asking Pastors To Affirm Homosexuality

Well, that sounds noble ‘equitable treatment of all people of the state.’ Nothing wrong with that phrase except what it means is: you need to affirm homosexuality. Stop speaking out against it. Stop trying to change people. Stop trying to proclaim a gospel that can transform people. 

They don’t have to walk and have same-sex attraction. They can’t be set free from either inclination or at least the practice it. All of that is what is attempted to be erased in this particular document.

It’s the first time I have seen that I can recall. Maybe I have a short memory, but the first time I can recall a document coming out of a state legislature specifically aimed at pastors; what you had better not say in your pulpit anymore.


A dangerous, dangerous path. It used to be that we believed in freedom of speech, freedom of religion. We’d say I may not agree with that pastor or priest or whatever but that’s your choice if you want to go there and sit under that teaching. Not anymore. 

Now it’s hey we’re not for you being able to disagree. We want you to affirm everything that we’re doing.

I got to ask you as a pastor though, how should we approach this from the standpoint of what they’re saying is be compassionate, treat everybody equal but if someone was living against biblical principles in some other area, let’s just take sexuality off the table for a minute.

Say they’re doing something else that the Bible says if you do this, it’s going to bring harm to you and your family and your life.

Is It Compassionate Not To Address The Issue?

Is it considered equitable or compassionate for pastors to not address that issue if they see people… I want to love. I want to help people. Does it mean that that helping now means you affirm everything even if it’s a harmful behavior? 


That’s so ludicrous.

You and I both know the most unloving act you can do for someone facing same-sex attraction is to affirm that in them and send them on not only in life but by all indicators (it) creates tremendous challenges in this life, but implications for the afterlife. 

This is a most unloving document that’s put together by Evan Lowe. A member of our State assembly. He himself is homosexual, and we have a Democratic supermajority here, so Republicans have no voice whatsoever. So it’s pretty hard to stop this kind of legislation.

And with Gavin Newsom as our governor, we now have a group of legislators who feel they can dictate to California pastors a statement that we would have to make. That we know would bring spiritual condemnation upon those within the sound of our voice.

What kind of a pathetic demonstration of lack of love would that be to call pastors to go along with this kind of biblically incorrect declaration?


It actually is the opposite. I think the resolution says something about not doing therapy or counseling or anything that would be unethical and harmful in moving them away from it. In fact, it would be unethical and harmful not to try to give them the chance to get out of that lifestyle.

Pastors And Churches Are Coming Together


Well, this is the approach taken by some of the key leaders in our State. Tonight I’ll be speaking at a special event with Hispanic pastors led by Jim Doleman. 

Jim Doleman leads a mission called Church United Church United is bringing pastors all over the State and around the nation to stand up for true biblical truth. 

Jim Doleman is a former practicing homosexual. I happened to be with him and his wife last night. He’s walking the great freedom of the Spirit of God in a wonderful marriage with children. But he once was a practicing homosexual. 

He got set free, and he’s rallying pastors not only in the United States but now he’s been called to come to other countries because the former homosexuals, they’re being discriminated against. 

People Who Want Out Of A Same-Sex Attraction Are Being Discriminated Against

If a person wants out of a same-sex attraction, wants help desires that, they no longer can get it. They are now being discriminated against. 

They don’t have any sense of choice, of religious choice at all. And there are numbers that are leading the cause from a discrimination standpoint. 

We don’t generally think of it quite in this particular way. But this is denying people choice opportunity. This is denying someone the possibility that they could escape this particular lifestyle. I just talked to him after I got back from Europe. 

We were staying in a hotel, had a group of people we were in the Netherlands for the end of our trip with a group of people with us. We took around Israel a small group we were together in Ukraine. Then I was speaking at the event in Geneva, Switzerland, and then we were a group in the Netherlands. Both at the Hague and Amsterdam. 

The travel agent assigned us to a hotel. I didn’t know anything about the hotel. We got there, and the manager offered us a tour because the hotel had been converted into until fairly recently.

Before that it was the City Chambers for Amsterdam. And so he took us to the City Chambers. For 180 years, that’s where the city council met. 

Amsterdam Was The First Nation to Support Homosexual Marriage

It’s no longer used for that, but the historic laws prevent them from changing that room, so it still looks just like it did, but a few feet away is a marriage chapel. Why is there a marriage chamber? They called it because you can either be married legally or you can be married celestial, be a church or both.

And so they had of marriage Chapel fairly close there in the governmental Hall which I remember now is a hotel.

They took us to this room and explain that the Netherlands in 2001 was the first-ever, in 5000 years recorded human history state or government, to now officially support homosexual marriage.

The first marriage occurred in that room. 




And we discovered that of all days on the fiftieth anniversary of Stonewall. Stonewall Riots in June 1969 in New York City, lower Manhattan. The launch of the LGBTQ movement. The radical homosexual agenda in our country. 

Fortunately, traveling with us were a group of intersections, and we began to pray and aggressively and proactively as it relates, we’d come to the taproom. What happens now?

What I’m telling you is for? This occurred in 2001. This has now gone global. It’s there isn’t a country you can’t go to that this is not a pressing issue. 

My wife and I were Conference in Paris. The delegates from Africa said you people have colonized this once you’re colonizing this again. We asked, how? They said you’re sexually colonized because your government is forcing upon us homosexual marriage and acceptance of homosexual lifestyle.  That kind of language we hear every place we go to.

We were recently in Italy. I spoke at a conference in Verona, Italy, at the World Congress Of Families. We’d have police protection at this large conference because we were considered quote ‘medieval’ in our thinking by virtue of believing that one man one woman marriage. 

This Agenda Is Spreading Globally And Effectively

This is a juggernaut that has moved globally, and it’s done it effectively in 18 years. 

That’s what is staggering on this, and now it comes down the point – it’s not just the right to exist or do what they want to do. I used to say in the privacy of our bedroom. It’s no longer that. Now it’s out on the streets continually. 

And now it’s gone so far that they have the audacity and the legislative body of say to California. I would contend it’s the most radically left-wing legislative body in the history of western civilization to have the audacity to tell pastors you can’t say and not say from the pulpit. You cannot speak on specific aspects or topics such as the sin of the practice of homosexuality.

Evangelicals Need To Vote


You know, Pastor Garlow, as I look at this resolution and then, of course, looking at it globally like you just described, it really puts a whole new perspective on it. As it begins and has begun to permeate down into our legislative bodies here in America, and our governor governmental system; what does that say to you about the importance of Christians actually being engaged in exercising their right to vote? Millions and millions of evangelicals, they don’t even vote. 

I think about California, and I think how many churches are in California and how many believers are in California. Is their voice actually being heard? If the left has a supermajority in California, I can’t imagine that the voice of the Church and Christians is actually being spoken.

Not just not being heard, it’s not being spoken. We’ve got to get the Christians out to vote. I wonder what the number is of those that are staying home in California, because they think they can’t make a difference in California when in fact you and I know they can if we get them to show up.


I can’t remember the number of evangelicals in the State of California. I’m trying to recall right now. But I do know this: we have the second-highest number of evangelicals of any state outside of Texas. There’s a lot of evangelicals here.

We recently had that tested with an Evangelicals vote in the recent gubernatorial race between John Cox and Gavin Newsom. Evangelicals chose to stay home. And Gavin Newsom, the man who broke the law and did that first same-sex marriage against the law in San Francisco, a number of years ago. He is now our current governor. 

There are 364,000 churches in America. You and my friend, Dave Barton, and our friend George Barna have done a lot of research on this. 

100,000 Consider Themselves Biblical

So I’m quoting what you already know, but it’s good for listeners to hear this once again. Three hundred sixty-four thousand churches in America. About one hundred thousand of those consider themselves biblical.

So that puts two hundred sixty-four thousand, over a quarter million churches, that have no adherence to the scriptural foundations by their own selfless definition. 

But one hundred thousand would call themselves conservative, theologically conservative. They would see themselves being essentially biblical.

Of those, how many of those have a distinct biblical worldview? That is the application of scriptural truth to contemporary issues. 

I asked that question of George Barna once, he says based on his research somewhere between as low as six thousand and as high as fifteen thousand. So at best we might be a tithe of the 100,000 that even claim to be biblical. 




Everybody knows that the Bible speaks to the issue of private lifestyle. Everybody knows it speaks for family lifestyle. Everybody knows this speaks to how a church is supposed to function. 

Scripture Is Profoundly Clear On The Issue Of Civil Governance

Where Christians miss it is they do not realize the scripture is profoundly clear on the issue of civil governance; that God is smarter than we are. He is so smart. He put together government. He established government, he established nations, and he put together a book that is filled with how civil governance is supposed to function. 

That’s right, and that’s where believers do not understand and do not grasp that they’ve got a God who’s so loving and he’s so bright that he gives them exactly how a government supposed to function. 

If we will follow the preachers of old, early years of the founding of this nation, those guys preached on every topic. You’ve probably seen, and many times in David Barton’s collection of those sermons, they preached on every conceivable topic whatever was on the news of the day. They educated people to what the scripture had to say. 

Now, that’s not considered Vogue or chic or hip or cool. We dare not mention the A-word, abortion. The h-word, homosexuality. The M-word marriage anymore. The list continues to go of things that we dare not talk about because if you are a pastor and you worship at the altar of nickels noses and numbers, and you mentioned those words it might cost you some people who might take their tithe-check and go elsewhere.

We don’t have too many Dietrich Bonhoeffer. 

The good news, we got a bunch of. There are pastors who are standing up, and that’s very encouraging. The bad news: we don’t have enough. And I try to tell pastors to quit using Dietrich Bonhoeffer for a sermon illustration. Start acting like him, start being like him. That’s what it’s going to take to see this nation turn.


That’s so good. Yeah, quit putting on the slide of Bonhoeffer and start acting like Bonhoeffer. That’s good. 

Pastor Jim, we’re out of time, brother. Hey, man, appreciate you so much. Dr. Garlow, what’s the best place for people to go get your books? Do you have a website we can send our listeners to? Especially they want to have you come in and speak.


Jimgarlow.com or they can go to wellversed.world.

Wellversed is the name of my ministry. We have, of course, the ministry in the United States Congress of the United Nations in New York City and in the Knesset in Israel. wellversed.world or if they want to read the book Well Versed, go to Amazon. That’s the fastest, easiest way to do it. Is go to Amazon and pick it up there.

Or if they want they want a phone number, it’s 855 777 93 55.


Excellent. Dr. Garlow God bless you, brother. Let’s get you back again soon. Thanks for your time today.


Thank you. Being with you. Bless you.

We Have Got To Step Up And Push Back


Thank you, Pastor Jim Garlow. We’re back with David and Tim Barton now. 

Guys, if pastors don’t get involved with this kind of legislation that is getting proposed in the state legislature. They’re basically saying, Come and get us. They’ve got to step up here and push back on these kinds of measures.


Well, not just pastors. Every person who likes the Constitution, and loves his freedoms should be pushing back because this is the government saying you can have free speech if we tell you, and approve of what you say. 

We’ll tell you what to say and what words to use. And as Garlow pointed out, their meaning of compassion is another way of saying don’t be biblical. We’re going to define compassion. We want you to preach compassion from the pulpit. And by the way, our definition is don’t preach what the Bible says because that’s not compassion. By our definition. 

You don’t have to be that pastor to say this is wrong and pushback on this. Even just a basic moral libertarian, just a civil libertarian ought to say, this is not the role of government to be doing this. 

This is historically why there was a separation of Church and State to keep this very thing from happening. As Jim points out, they even going so far as trying to blame biblical counseling for higher suicide rates. Yet there are so many studies on the other side of that saying the lifestyle itself is what produces higher suicide rates. So there are so many things that are wrong with this measure on so many levels. 

This Agenda Is Spreading All Over

This is where people do need to sound off and by the way, if this is successful California you can expect it to come to a state legislature near you. You can say well that would never come to Texas. Well, Texas has changed so much in the last two elections. We’re now just within nine votes of losing a Republican legislature, Republican House of Representatives of Texas. I mean, this thing is spreading all over. 

And so this time even in Texas a very red state. There was a massive LGBTQ caucus that had very strong successes and many measures this year. So don’t just say well that’s California they’re goofy out there now. Most people would consider Texas to be a very conservative red state. But when you look underneath what the perception is, it’s just not there. It’s gone the other way.

This is Uncle Sam saying hey we need you to come to the aid of the country kind of stuff. And this is when everybody needs to step up on these kinds of measures.

This Precarious Moment Address The Issues  And Gives You Solutions And Practical Steps 


Guys, this is one of the reasons that I so appreciate the book Dad and Jim did and the work you put into this because as a lot of people are frustrated and fed up, and they want to make a difference, they want to get involved in what do I do? 

One of the things I think is so great about This Precarious Moment is that not only do you address the issues you also give solutions and practical steps. And here’s how you can engage your friends. Here’s how you can have this conversation. Here’s the way you ought to think from a biblical perspective. So, the book This Precarious Moment really is a phenomenal resource. 

As you mentioned, people on all different sides of the issue, people in all different aisles. It doesn’t really matter what your political makeup what your philosophical ideology is. You want to know what is true, you want to have the factual information, and then you can form your opinion; we totally support that. 

This Precarious Moment is a book that really does help get a lot of that information and help people know what is out there. We have that on the WallBuilders website. You can get it on Amazon.com. Jim’s Web site. There are so many different places where you can find it, but it really is a great tool if we’re going to help make a difference. We’re going be the ones to stand up and have a voice. 

And as you said Dad, not just pastors that need to do this. If we’re all going to stand up and do something we need to know what is true, and what should we be doing? How should we engage culture in the next generation and politically, and this book really does give a lot of great information to know how to do that.


This Precarious Moment, that book is available right now at WallBuilders.com. I encourage you to read it, share it. It’ll give you great information for being able to discuss these things with others as well. It’s available at WallBuilders.com today.

Really appreciate Jim Garlow joining us today and being a part of this conversation. 

Get Involved With WallBuilders Ministry

Thank you for listening today. I hope you’re taking the things that you hear on WallBuilders live and actually using them. Not just listening but taking action steps in your community. 

So many different things you can be involved in, and do and the things that we provide you the opportunity to do from being a constitution coach and taking Constitution Alive with David Barton and myself.

From teaching at Independence Hall and in the WallBuilders library and actually bringing that teaching into your home and inviting people over to be a part of that or maybe at your church. Have a class there at your church to do exactly that. 

You can do a constitution class like that. You can actually be a part of helping us train young leaders so you can sponsor a student to go to Patrick Academy or go to the WallBuilders leadership training program in the summer. 

Those are great ways for you to invest in freedom and invest in the next generation. 

Donate To WallBuilders Live

The last thing I want to encourage you to do is to invest in this program, WallBuilders Live. At Wallbuilderslive.com there’s a donate button. When you do that you’re coming alongside us and investing in freedom and helping us to do all these different things that Wall Builders does but especially this radio program which reaches so many people.

And you get to be a part of that. I encourage you to visit WallBuilders Live today for all of those things. Thanks so much for listening to WallBuilders Live.