Laws In America That Have Withstood The Test Of Time: All this week we will be sharing a special presentation from Foundations of Freedom! We’ll be having special guests coming on each day so stay tuned throughout the week! Today, we will be discussing which laws that withstand the test of time.

Air Date: 10/23/18

Guest: Michele Bachmann

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Welcome

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Talking the hottest topics on policy, and faith, and the culture. All of that from a Biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

This week is a little bit special. We’ve got four of our Foundations of Freedom television programs that we’re sharing with you this week. You can get the full series on our website at WallBuildersLive.com. You can download this week’s programs and share them with your friends and family.

If you’d like to see the DVD’s of the television program itself you can go to WallBuilders.com. We have links today at WallBuildersLive.com.  If it gets confusing it will be really easy if you just check out WallBuildersLive.com today.

Yesterday we started with the first episode from Foundations of Freedom.  It’s called, “The Founders Bible.” And that was with David Barton and myself, Rick Green. We’re going to get the final conclusion of that here today as we start.

And then we’re just going to roll right into that second episode of Foundations of Freedom. This one with Michele Bachmann, great program lined up for you today. You’re going to hear a little bit about the Founders Bible and then the Foundations of Law, part one of Foundations of Freedom with David Barton.

Checking Sources And Footnotes

Rick:

And we saw the results.

David:

And we saw the results.

Rick:

And we had so many years and so many generations of the greatest nation in history.

David:

And by the way, if you want to know where they’re getting their material you go to the back of the book and check footnotes. And it’s not just footnotes, you also want to check sources. If you’re looking in the 1760’s you don’t want to be quoting books from the 1960’s.  You want to be quoting books from the 1760’s. There’s a lot of revision of that happens over history.  Go back to the original eyewitness documents.

Go to the back of the book, go to footnotes, and as we start looking for footnotes there are no footnote numbers here.  It’s a very short section, just a few pages. And then we see this, “We have dispensed with the usual scholarly apparatus of footnotes.”

Rick:

So wait, they’re going to completely change history and what happened in the Founding of America and then not give any evidence?

David:

Not a single footnote. But I’ve seen court cases where the court says, “Oh no, you can’t have religious activities in public because we have a Godless constitution.”  And they cite this book as the proof. How about going back and citing the Founding Fathers? But let’s take their speeches and just put the Bible verses in there.  You don’t recognize them anymore.

Bibles In Schools

Rick:

Or as you said earlier that the father of the public schools saying that we should have the Bible.

David:

Or Fisher Ames who did the First Amendment. Why don’t we quote him in the courts when he says, “Don’t let the Bible get out of schools.” Now, we don’t have it in schools today? No worries, you just aren’t reading the Bible for yourself wherever you are. You get into it right now and start knowing that Bible.

Rick:

And it’s no wonder then that our foundations are falling apart. It’s no wonder we’re losing freedom. It’s no wonder we’ve forgotten what the foundations are. If we don’t have this in the classroom as you said so that they’ll read it later in life. And we’ve got to do something different.

If we have a situation now where public schools no longer do what the father of public schools said to do. If we want to restore the foundations of freedom then we’ve got to come back to the Biblical foundations.

You’re saying we personally need to read it. What else can we do for the culture to get the Bible back in and recognize so that we can have strong foundations of freedom?

The Example Roger Sherman Set

David:

Go back to John Quincy Adams, right here, this little book he did for 10-year-olds. He pointed out to 10-year-olds, “I read the Bible once every year.” That was very common for the Founding Fathers. Matter of fact, one of our Founding Fathers we rarely talked about today is a guy named Roger Sherman.

Roger Sherman is the only Founding Father to sign all four founding documents. He’s the guy credited with giving us the bicameral system whereby we have a house and senate. He came up with a wonderful innovation of the Electoral College whereby states and people get a voice in choosing the president.

Rick:

Instrumental then, in and the foundation?

David:

Instrumental. He is a key Founder and nobody knows him today. I have here a newspaper from Washington, D.C. This goes back- And by the way, Roger Sherman also helped frame the Bill of Rights. So he’s in the early Congress. He spent several years in Congress and this is an early newspaper from back in the 1830’s. And it talks about Roger Sherman in Congress.

I’m just going to turn to the bottom here, this little note they’ve got about Roger Sherman in Congress, “The volume which he consulted more than any other was the Bible. It was his custom at the commencement of every session of Congress to purchase a copy of the Scriptures, to peruse it daily, and to present it to one of his children on his return.”

Here you’ve got a famous congressman and his habit is every time he goes to Congress he takes a new Bible with him. And as he’s studying the Bible and reading through it every day he makes annotations in the margin of what the Lord showed him. By the way, he had 15 kids.

Rick:

You’ve got a lot of Bibles to pass out.

The Bible Once A Year Bible

David:

But these guys read the Bible once every year, that was what they did. We need to do that today and there are easy ways to do it. Here’s a way anybody can do it, the One Year Bible. Go to any bookstore, get a copy the One Year Bible, and if you want to be lazy like some of us do-

Rick

It’s right there on the app.

David:

We’ve got an app with it and you can just hit the app and it will read it to you. So when you’re brushing your teeth and getting ready in the mornings, it’ll read the daily- all you have to do is read three chapters a day of the Bible and you covered the entire Bible in a year. That’s easy.

Rick:

Are you saying to folks out there that want to restore foundations, that have started studying the Founding Fathers, and the founding documents, it’s just as important to study that founding document, the Bible as it is other founding documents?

David:

You won’t understand their speeches if you don’t understand where they get their ideas. We’re told by Jesus in Matthew 12:34 that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Rick:

So good second read the Bible. At home, this is a good family thing, read through the Bible and that’s following in the footsteps of the Founding Fathers.

David:

And if you want to see how the Bible applies – the Founders Bible. That’s what the Founders Bible does. It takes all these Bible verses the Founders use and shows you where they took Bible verses and applied it to government.

Out Of The Heart, The Mouth Speaks

So read the one your Bible, get through it once a year. If you and see how it applies read the Founders Bible. Second thing you do, start memorizing scriptures, easy thing to do. Memorize as a starting place Psalms 119 verses 10 and 11. That ends up by saying, “Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against you.” Start by hiding his word in your heart. Real simple thing to do.

Rick:

I’m assuming that the Founding Fathers did that because the speeches you shared with us, they were getting up off the cuff and they were giving those speeches and quoting verse, after verse, after verse?

David:

Just spontaneously giving a speech. Whatever they saw happening, they addressed. Patrick Henry is in the heat of the debate, guess what came out of his mouth? That’s a third thing, start speaking the word. But you can’t speak the word if it’s not inside. So you start by reading the word, then start memorizing the word, then it’ll start coming out, and speaking the word. And that’s one of the things we can do to restore the foundations of freedom in America.

DVD On Common Core

David:

Hi, friends! This is David Barton of WallBuilders. The current condition of education in America is abysmal. Not only is educational achievement plummeting, but every year, some 19 percent of high school seniors who graduate is completely illiterate. They can’t read at all but it was not always this way.

For generations, we taught students how to think. But after the progressives took over education in the early 20th century, things began to radically change. Education shifted from thinking to learning, which made the emphasis on the teachers rather than the students. And that elevated indoctrination above knowledge.

At that time, progressives also made massive changes in the way we tested students. They extended school from 8 to 12 years. They introduced graded education and they added compulsory education. Statistics prove that these changes have harmed education rather than helped it. And now the progressives are pushing common core.

In our new DVD On Common Core, we give you eight reasons why this current approach is so dangerous to our kids and our culture. We also show you an amazing history of education. So get this new DVD at WallBuilders.com.

Foundations of Law Series Part One

Intro Speaker.

Laws. They are designed to protect our freedoms but not all laws are created equal. How do we know the good from the bad? Where does the concept of law originate? What laws stand the test of time? Who should be writing our laws today?

Join historian David Barton with special guests Glenn Beck, Congresswoman Michele Bachmann, and more as they explore the America our Founding Fathers envisioned. What if America’s story is bolder, more colorful, and more compelling than you ever imagined? This is Foundations of Freedom.

David:

Welcome to Foundations of Freedom where we look at important aspects of our common heritage, about which most Americans today have been told absolutely nothing. Joining me today is Congresswoman Michele Bachmann. Michele is a federal tax attorney, she is a successful businesswoman, she’s a very successful mom having raised five of her own kids, and 23 foster kids, she’s also a member of Congress.  And in Congress, she serves on some of the most important committees such as the House Intelligence Committee which is in charge of our national secrets. Michele, great to have you with us, thanks for being here.

Michele:

Great to be here today and I’m looking forward to unlocking some secrets here as well that a lot of Americans aren’t familiar with. This is so interesting because it’s an area that every American is impacted by today. Really, people around the world are impacted by this.

David:

It’s a real practical.

Michele:

It’s very practical because the law isn’t just some dry subject. This is a topic that was created in the mind of an Almighty God. And it isn’t just one area, it’s multiple areas. We see in the Bible that ceremonial laws. But then it’s also the moral law and all of us know a little bit about that and its judicial law which I have to deal with as a lawyer. But also as a legislator, a member of Congress.

We also deal with the social compact and those are the laws between people horizontally to help our society work. So this is going to be great. I think people are going to learn a lot. I’m going to learn a lot. So I’m really excited to hear what you have to say today.

David:

Great! Let’s see what some questions are that we’ve got from the audience.

Michele:

Ok, very good.

Have Laws Always Regulated So Much Of What We Do?

Guest:

It seems like we have laws regulating everything these days. How businesses are run, who they can hire, how clothes are made, what food we can buy, even what happens in churches. Is this the way government has always been?

David:

Easy answer to that. No, that’s the way secular government has always been.

Michele:

That’s true.

David:

When you get to a God conscious government and look at God conscious government. We have great guidance on this in scriptures-

Michele:

But, “We have a secular government.” That’s what we’re told.

David:

That’s what we hear.

Michele:

Talk about that.

David:

Well, we really don’t have a secular government. And the reason we don’t have a secular government is because God’s the one who ordained it. Now, we do have a separation between the institutions of church and state but we never separate God out of anything. And so the notion that God is to be separate from government, he doesn’t buy that because he’s the one who ordained government.

Genesis 9 is the first government in the history of the world. It came from God at his ordination. The Noahide Laws, seven categories of civil laws. God is into civil laws, the Bible has 613 civil laws in it. God’s really good on everything from immigration, to taxation, to military, to family, to business.  You name it, he’s got it all.

What Part Does God Play In Civil Government?

Michele:

So here you have God, God’s laws, and here you have a civil government that you just talked about. How do you have a civil government.  And yet, is God’s a little bit a part of it?  A lot of part it?  No part of it?

David:

Well, because God ordained it He knows best how to run it. A great passage is in first Timothy Chapter 1 verses 8 through 10. This is where the Bible tells us the purpose of law.

Michele:

Let’s look at that.

David:

It says, “We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels.” And that’s the second thing, governments is not supposed to pass laws to regulate the good guys, they are supposed to pass laws to regulate the bad.

Michele:

That’s all we do is law and pass laws. I remember in Congress there’s one day when we voted 53 times. I think people would be shocked to hear that. How often this plethora of laws, we stack laws, upon laws, upon laws. But that’s interesting when you say that Scripture says that the law is not made for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels.

David:

And look at lawbreakers. It’s made for, as it says, “Lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers, for those sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders, and liars, and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine.”  

Now those are the bad guys. Those are the bad guys. Those are the ones you’re supposed to be regulating.

The problem we have today is that, as you just mentioned, 53 votes in one day. Any given session of Congress you guys have between 10,000 and 13,000 bills introduced every session.

And by the way, just as with the health care bill, you have 2,500 pages in the bill but then you have 50,000 regulations-

Michele:

But the regulations. And it’s a law that will never be finished being written.

David:

That’s right because regulations-

Michele:

It goes on, and on, and on.

David:

That’s right.

Michele:

That’s one of the beauties of law is certainty. People need to know, “what’s the behavior expected of me?” “What do I need to do in response to my government?” And so when law is malleable, when it can mean different things, then there’s no certainty in the people.

David:

And there’s no one to government control at that point. Because they can reshape it into anything. As Thomas Jefferson said, “It becomes a thing of wax to which they can take anything they want.” And it gives more and more control.

God’s Moral Law

Now, let me kind of back up here to say that we all know that ignorance of the law is no excuse. You’re from Minnesota.  I’m from Texas.

So I go to Minnesota, I rent a car at the airport.  I start driving north and I’m going 85 miles an hour and I get pulled over by highway patrol Minnesota who says, “You can’t do this.”

And I say, “Wait a minute, 85 is our speed limit in Texas.”

“Well, it’s not here.”

Michele:

“Not in Minnesota.”

David:

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. So that tells me I should know the law, which every single person in America needs to know federal law because you can be arrested for breaking federal law.  It doesn’t matter whether you know it or not.

Michele:

That’s an impossibility because we’re all trying to lead our lives. And I can tell you for a fact I’ve been in the law libraries where it’s a federal law and it is stack after stack, shelf after shelf, page after page, no one could know federal law, it’s impossible.

David:

If you made a commitment, let’s talk about that library, all of those books of federal law and all the federal regulations that come from law.

Michele:

Right, that doesn’t include the regulations. Congress will pass a law and then will tell the federal agencies, “Well, now you need to implement that law.” See, you write all the additional requirements. Well, that’s usually where the mess is, in all of the regulations. And that’s considered law just as much as law is.

David:

You know, I’ve got a friend, she has a 95-year-old lady her name was Esther Armstrong and she loved prison ministry. I mean, she was everybody’s favorite grandma. She was small, she was diminutive, she had white hair. And she would go into the county prisons, she would go into the state prisons, in federal prisons, and she would mentor these guys and just talk blunt to them.

She was in with one of these persons one day who is what we call a jailhouse attorney, somebody who’s got such a long sentence they got their law degree while they’re in jail to sue to get out.

Michele:

Oh, I’ve met them.

David:

One of these jailhouse attorneys came up to her and put his arm around her and said, “Mom Esther, did you know there are a hundred thousand laws that will put you in jail?” And she looked at him and said, “Do you know there are 10 laws that will keep you out of jail?”

Michele:

Yeah, baby.  We know which one that is, that’s right, the moral law. God’s moral law.

David:

And that’s why it’s so simple in the Bible. You don’t have all these regulated behaviors because if you deal with the inside, the outside is under control. But when you have a secular government they think that they’re God. And at that point they want to control every aspect of your life. Only when you have a God conscious government do you have limited government because you deal with the inside not just the outside.

All Of Law Can Be Reduced To The 10 Commandments

Michele:

I had two great Godly law professors when I went to law school and they had pointed us to Blackstone. Blackstone was the great English jurist. And Blackstone had written that all of common law is based upon the Ten Commandments of the Bible, God’s moral law. And I know that different commentators have said that all of law can be reduced to the Ten Commandments. And how important that is.

So often years ago in our churches or in synagogues children learned the Ten Commandments. They learned it, they understood it, and they memorized it. And all throughout their life, God would give further illumination to them of what those laws meant.

Could you talk a little bit more about the importance and the primacy of moral law here in the United States, all over the world, but what it means here?

David:

It’s an interesting thing because when you look in the Bible there are four types of law. There’s a ceremonial law-

Michele:

Explain that. Ceremonies, is like my wedding, is that my baptism, what is that?

David:

That would be like the Temple sacrifices and what happened there.

Michele:

So Old Testament?

David:

That’s Old Testament. And it’s not necessarily a problem that it’s Old Testament but it’s been replaced by the sacrifice of Christ. The way we’ve become righteous now is not by the sacrifices of the temple, it’s what Christ did.

Michele:

That’s an important point because under ceremonial law in the Old Testament people would try to keep the ceremonial law because they saw that that would give them personal righteousness, right?

David:

That’s right.

Michele:
And that would be their future salvation if they followed the law. What a radical difference between Old and New Testament. And it didn’t work because we are sinful. So now you have a perfect Savior, a perfect sacrifice who completely fulfills the ceremonial law of the Old Testament. So that’s kind of wrapped up with a bow now.

Avalon Project

Tim:

Hey, guys, this is Tim Barton with WallBuilders. I know you hear my dad and Rick talk a lot about our Founding Fathers about the original intent of our nation, a constitutional heritage that we have. And really we’ve seen how far we slipped away from that. And I know a lot of us as we hear my dad and Rick talk think, “I wish there was a place that I could go where I could see these documents and I could read and learn about the Founding Fathers firsthand.  See the things they did.”  

I want to give you some websites today that can help you accomplish that very thing. If you get online you can go to places like Library of Congress and you can look under their century of lawmaking or historical documents. You can go to the Avalon Project, to the Founders Constitution, Google Books, or even the internet archives.  

Or you can just go to WallBuilders.com. We have a section for our WallBuilders Library .

And under that section, we have different subgroups for historical documents, historical writings, even a place where you can get helpful links to find out more information about other websites.  Where you can do research for yourself and find the truth for yourself. Friends, this is the time that we need to know who we are and where we came from. WallBuilders.com is a great place to go.

Are Death Penalties Biblical?

David:

The next law is Moral law.

Michele:

Which we just talked about.

David:

Which is where God tells us what’s right, what’s wrong.  This is an important thing because I had a call recently from a state senator and the state senator said, “You’ve got to help me. I’ve got a friend here that is a Christian guy who keeps talking about, ‘how can you be pro-life and be pro-death penalty? How can you do that? Because the Bible says don’t kill.’”

And I said, “Well, he is misunderstanding that the Bible actually says, “Don’t murder.” It doesn’t say, “Don’t kill.” “You don’t shed innocent blood.” You can shed blood. God ordained civil government to shed blood if it’s guilty blood.

Michele:

You just got into a great point. Because it’s who’s allowed to shed the blood. There’s only one entity that God created, and that’s the civil government that’s allowed to wield the sword. So if I do something terrible, if I murder someone else in a fit of rage, I murder someone, that’s not up to my brother to bring justice or someone else. There’s an entity very specific that God ordained, the civil government, they’re the only one.

David:

The only one can do that, that’s right. Civil justice belongs to the civil government. Self-defense, we can wield. I can shed someone’s blood defending-

Michele:

If I’m in my own house and someone breaks in, I’ve got that right.

David:

My house, my family, and my possessions-

Michele:

And our law tells us we can do that too.

Settled Law

David:

And Blackstone’s, as you mentioned, that’s called, “The Castle Doctrine.”  Your house is your castle, all your possessions, all those who live there, you’ve got the right to defend your castle. So that’s a moral law.

And I asked the senator, “Do you believe that arson is a sin?”

“Oh yeah.”

“Do you believe that infanticide, killing a born child is a sin?”

“Oh yeah.”

“Do you believe that bestiality, sex with animals is?”

“Yeah.”

“Show me anywhere in the New Testament where it’s a sin. You can’t even show the New Testament where that abortion is a sin. That’s a sin in the Old Testament.”

Michele:

You just don’t talk about it. It’s not brought up.

David:

And it doesn’t need to be because once God said, “It’s wrong,” it stays wrong.

Michele:

It’s settled, that’s right. That’s a very important part of the law, settled doctrine. And it’s done because of the Ten Commandments, are the Ten Commandments, are the Ten Commandments.

David:

In the Old Testament and the New Testament says, “God is moral law.”

Michele:

And not just for the Hebrews and not just for Gentiles-

David:

It’s behavior.

Michele:

For all people, for all time. In fact, the New Testament talks about how God put the Ten Commandments in our hearts. He put them within. So that’s why we have a conscience. So you might wonder why we feel guilty? When a little child does something wrong it’s all over their faces. It’s because He puts it in our heart. Unless our conscience is seared unless we continually turn away from what our conscience tells us is wrong.  But you’ve got the Ten Commandments.

David:

Under the Ten Commandments, you don’t murder, you don’t commit adultery, you don’t steal, you don’t perjure yourself, but there are no penalties attached to this. Death leads to the third law-

Michele:

This is telling us what to do-

David:

What is right and wrong.

Michele:

But it doesn’t say what’s the penalty if he violates. And that’s-

David:

That’s the third type of law which is judicial law.

Michele:

Judicial law.

Judicial Law Versus Moral Law

David:

Judicial law comes down-

Michele:

Ceremonial law, Moral law, Judicial law. Moral law tells us what’s right and wrong. Judicial law tells us-

David:

The penalties.

Michele:

If you murder someone for example, maybe it’s 40 years, maybe it’s life in prison, and maybe it’s the electric chair.

David:

As you said, “maybe” and that’s a key point because Judicial law changes over time. Moral law never changes. Back in the beginning with adultery you got killed, in the Hebrew tradition.  Jesus comes along he says, “That’s a sin, don’t do it anymore.” But he didn’t stone the lady. Today it’s just this disapprobation but it’s still a moral wrong.

Here we are in Texas and in Texas, we used to hang horse thieves. We don’t anymore but it’s still a crime to steal a horse but you don’t get hung for it. So judicial law can change over time.

Michele:

The moral law doesn’t.  Moral law is never changing.  Judicial law does change because it may be different in England, or different in Australia, it may be different the U.S., it may be different Ukraine, that changes.

You Can’t Redefine Moral Law

David:

But it’s still got a right and wrong attached to it and you never get away from right and wrong. And those are what the Declaration of Independence called, “The Laws of Nature and Nature’s God.” The rights and wrongs that became part of the Seventh Amendment the Constitution, the common law that establishes what’s right and wrong. We’re living in a culture now where we’re trying to redefine what we think is right and wrong and we’re redefining the Moral law on a regular basis, you can’t do that.

Michele:

In other words, we’re turning it upside and that’s when you’ve got trouble.

David:

Instead of God telling you what’s right and wrong we’re now having the government. And that’s a problem we get into, instead of government being limited and going after law breakers like the Bible says, and that’s the problem.

Social Compact Law

Michele:

That’s the beauty of government was it was limited. Limited jurisdiction, we need to talk about that a little bit. But I know that there’s another fourth area of law that we really should touch on is Social Compact.

David:

Social Compact law all the things that fall under the Moral Law. Social Compact law is where the will of the majority wins.

Michele:

These are the biggies that are immutable that you cannot disagree. You shouldn’t be murdering people.

David:

And there is more in the Bible. We talked about beastiuality and arson. Rape is a crime in the Bible. It’s  not in Ten Commandments.  It’s a moral crime.  God lays out all of that. The laws, of who you can marry, who can’t marry. You can’t marry first cousins and you can’t marry sisters. So all of that is part of the moral law and that’s all laid out. But then you get into things that say, “Do we want the sidewalks to be four feet wide, five feet wide wide, or six feet wide?”

Michele:

Speed limits.

David:

Speed limits.

Michele:

What are what are the law limits on turnip trucks? It really has to do with the whole idea of, “We can kind of do whatever we want. Other than I can’t take my fist and plant it on your nose.” So anything short of that you should be able to have freedom. So in other words, when my behavior hurts you then that’s when you have to have a social compact law.

David:

It’s to get an orderly society. You can have Social Compact laws if you’re not voting on the Moral law. You don’t get to vote on whether murder is a crime or not.

Michele:

No, because it’s done.

David:

God already said it.

Michele:

There can never be a dispensation to do what’s wrong. That’s why I think we continue to see in the United States today the ongoing debate about the issue of abortion.

Rick:

We’re out of time for today. Folks you’ve been listening to Foundations of Freedom with David Barton. Today’s episode was with Michele Bachmann and we haven’t quite finished it. We’ve got a few minutes left that we’re going to finish up tomorrow so you get the conclusion of that first episode on the Foundations of Law with Michele Bachmann.

And they will roll right into the part 2, second episode and get most of that knockout tomorrow so don’t miss tomorrow, a lot of great information for you from Foundations of Freedom with David Barton. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live!