Legislating Morality Part 2. Dealing with issues such as separation of church and state, freedom of religion, transgenderism, discrimination, and how to answer tough questions of opposition, we conclude our special presentation of Dr. Frank Turek”€™s presentation about the importance of Christians being involved in politics.

Air Date: 12/16/2016

Guests: Rick Green, Dr. Frank Turek, CrossExaminied.org, https://www.facebook.com/CrossExamined.org/?fref=ts, https://www.facebook.com/drfrankturek?pnref=story

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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast.  However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers.


Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture.  This is WallBuilders Live! We’re going to dive right in folks. We are picking up on yesterday’s program. It’s a two part series from when Dr. Frank Turek spoke at the Pro-family Legislators Conference. Here he is, Dr. Frank Turek.

Legislating Morality


Many people think whatever is legal is moral and whatever is illegal is immoral. This is the danger with certain leftist laws. When seven unelected justices overturn the will of the people in all 50 states. In 1973, we had pretty much a consensus on the issue of abortion. We thought it was wrong. Now about 50 years later we’re about evenly split on the issue. Forty years later we are forty three years later. We evenly split on the issue. Why? What changed?


The law changed. People are now going, “€œHey, abortion is legal.  It must not really be wrong.”€


A Euphemism To Evil:  Choice

A friend of mine who just had triplets told me yesterday that when they were about to go in for a doctor’s appointment at the hospital-she’s still pregnant-the doctor came in and said, “€œWould you like to consider fetal reduction surgery?”€ And the mother nearly grabbed her ( the doctor’s)  neck- and she’s normally mild mannered.  She said, “€œI don’t want to hear another word.”€ And the doctor said, “€œWell, many people don’t know if they want to have three babies right now.”€


I said well, what you should have said back to her is, “€œI already have three babies. The question is what am I going to do with them.”€ Do you see? You can actually have doctors now thinking, “€œWell because abortions are legal, it’s just fine. It’s just now fetal reduction surgery.”€


Can we give a euphemism to evil? Yeah we can, we could call it a choice.  We could call it fetal reduction surgery.  We can come up with all nice sounding words to try and cover that evil.


Now Somehow You”€™re A Bigot

And unfortunately, the law can do that. Just six years ago Barack Obama said he was against same sex marriage.  He thought marriage should be between a man and a woman. And now if you say, “€œI’m just for natural marriage because I think it’s best for society.”€ you’re somehow a bigot.


Was Barack Obama bigot six years ago? The law helps change. You always hear the laws can’t change minds and hearts. No, it can actually. It can. Maybe not in a salvific way. Although Paul does say the law is a schoolmaster that leads us to Christ, but the law can change attitudes. And so that’s why the law is important we can’t give it up.


In fact, what’s at stake?  Let me give you one other example of this: slavery. A hundred and fifty years or so ago we were evenly split on the issue of slavery. Now who thinks slavery is a good idea? Nobody. Question: Are we more religious now or less religious now? We’re less. And yet we have a better moral view on slavery. Why? The law changed. The law’s important. Don’t give up on the law.You say, “€œSome of these issues, Frank, we can’t change.”€ Doesn’t matter. You just keep doing what’s right and you leave the results to God. Just keep doing what’s right.


Freedom Of Religion vs. Freedom Of Worship:  The Subtle But Significant Difference

So what’s at stake? Your children and your grandchildren are at stake. Your freedoms are at stake including the Gospel itself and very lives are at stake. What you do every day is literally a life and death endeavor.


In fact, there’s been a couple of politicians in recent years that have shifted their language on religious freedom. They will go unnamed but these politicians have shifted from calling freedom of religion to freedom of worship. Have you heard of this? What’s the subtle difference here? Which really isn’t so subtle.


North Korea Has Freedom of Worship, USA Has Freedom Of Religion

Freedom of worship is you can do whatever you want in your church.  Just don’t live it out. Freedom of religion that we have in our Constitution, the free exercise of religion means you can live out your religious beliefs. Of course, there are limits.  You know if you’re a jihadist you can’t kill people but you get the idea.


Here’s the problem if you’re going to say freedom of worship is our First Amendment right. That is a severely truncated view.  In fact,, in North Korea, they have freedom of worship. Did you know that? You can in your mind do whatever you want in North Korea. Just don’t let anybody know about it. Freedom of worship is vacuous. Freedom of religion is what we have in this country.


Many People Sued Or Fired, Violating Freedom Of Religion

So you can believe anything you want while you’re in your church but you can’t act on it outside your church. Which means your pastor can preach whatever he wants as long as you don’t obey it.


And I don’t just mean your pastor has freedom of religion you have freedom of religion. Have you heard of the Klines? Do you know who the Klines are? They’re the couple in Oregon who said they couldn’t participate in an event as Dennis said a same sex ceremony. They couldn’t bake the cake for that and give their artistic talents to it.


Well, they’ve been fined $135,000 by the Oregon commission of whatever. I don’t know what they are- human rights.


There’s a grandmother by name of Baron L. Stutzman in Washington state who was sued by the attorney general there because she couldn’t participate as a florist in a same sex wedding.


Is there any real problem find in a gay florist to do a wedding? I don’t think there is, is there? No, I don’t think there is. I could give you example after example here and you you probably already know it because you’re dialed in. If you watch the mainstream media you won’t see this but you know the examples are out there.  The Alliance for Defending Freedom keeps a record of them. ADF you know about ADF I’m sure.


“€œCorrect, Not Politically Correct:  How Same Sex Marriage Hurts Everyone,”€ Dr. Frank Turek

In fact, you may have heard of the Christian consultant fired by Bank of America over a gay marriage book just months after being fired by Cisco Systems in California of an anti-gay marriage book. Christian consultant, Dr. Frank- Oh, that’s me. Yeah, I wrote this book right here: “€œCorrect, Not Politically Correct: How Same Sex Marriage Hurts Everyone.”€ I was doing leadership training for both Cisco and Bank of America for many years. They loved the work I did. Never mention my political views there. But somebody Googled me and figured out I had written this book and in the name of inclusion and diversity, I was excluded immediately.


Often Those Who Say They Are Fighting For Tolerance Are Often The Most Intolerant People Out There

Now look, if you”€™re Cisco or you”€™re Bank of America and you don’t want to work with me fine. I don’t have a right to your job. I believe in live and let live. You want to fire me, that’s fine but don’t run around telling me you’re inclusive and diverse because you’re anything but that. You’re not into diverse ideas. You’re not into inclusion. You have a one value that you value and that value is to be lived out at all costs and anyone who disagrees with it is going to get hurt.

This is a religion of the sword. You may have heard just last night there’s a company out there called Grub Hub. What is it? Have heard of this? The CEO sent an email to all of his employees says, “€œIf you’re for Trump you can resign right now.”€ Now, there’s a Boycott Grubhub thing out there. I mean talk about tolerance, inclusion, and diversity. None of that from the left. I’ve noticed that people who say they’re fighting for tolerance are often the most intolerant people out there. Have you notice this? Whatever happened to live and let live?

My Meeting With Donald Trump.

I had the privilege of being in a couple of meetings in the last month with Donald Trump on religious freedom issues.  I said to Trump, “€œWhy don’t we say this?  Why don”€™t we say to folks on the other side of this issue on religious freedom, particularly the gay wedding thing, the same sex marriage thing. Why don’t we say this? You want to have your same sex weddings. Fine. Knock yourself out. Go right ahead. Just don’t force me to be a part of them and guess what? We’ll have our weddings and we won’t force you to be a part of it. How about that? How about live and let live? I think 85 percent 90 percent the American people say, “€˜Yeah whatever happened to live and let live?”€™”€

And he said “€œ Yeah.”€  So we’ll see if he lives that out or not. But the other side is to not to live and let live at all. You know we give conscientious objector status to people so they don’t have to take up arms and defend the country which is the number one responsibility of government to defend people from evil. Yet we can’t give conscientious objector status to people who can’t do same sex weddings. Are we straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel? It is crazy! Who’s going to protect life, if not you, who’s going to do it? Who is going to protect marriage and children if not you, who’s going to do it? The real issue with same sex marriage – and by the way no fault divorce, we really started the whole same sex marriage movement by agreeing to no fault divorce.  The real losers are the children.

Discrimination Against Behavior Is Not Discrimination Against A Person.

Every child deserves a mother and a father. There’s not parenting, there’s mothering and fathering. And if we’re going to say that same sex relationships are just like opposite sex relationships. We are actually promoting evil and harm.


In fact, let me show what I mean by this. Let’s go to the final, “€œWhat can we do about this.”€ We have to be very clear when people are claiming we’re discriminatory. This is the truth. Discrimination against behavior is not discrimination against a person. Discrimination against a behavior is not discrimination against a person.


All Laws Discriminate Against Behavior

All laws discriminate against behavior. That’s what laws do. They say this behavior is wrong, this behavior is right. This behavior is harmful, the opposite is better is not harmful. Marriage is a behavior and there are two different outcomes with same sex marriage and opposite sex marriage. Completely different outcomes. In fact, do you know, maybe the best way of looking at this is graphically. The reason marriage between a man or a woman is so important is because marriage is the foundation of civilization. I have an entire book on this I’m only going to spend a minute on it. In fact, I have five free copies of the book if anyone is really interested, just raise your hand later and I’ll give you one.


As A Legislator We Prohibit, Permit, or Promote Behavior

Marriage creates children and raises children by mom and dad. Civilized men protects women and perpetuates and stabilizes society. And the government only has three options with any behavior. Here’s what the government can do. And remember laws address behaviors not persons. Nobody’s being discriminated against when you pass a law that says marriage is between a man and a woman.


Here’s the three options you can’t prohibit a behavior, you can permit a behavior, or you can promote a behavior, three p”€™s. You can prohibit, permit, or promote. Those are the only options you have as a legislator. Most of the behaviors out there we permit.  We don’t even address them. The ones that we address most frequently are that we have to prohibit. We have to protect people from evil.


Sometimes, we promote things you know for  millennia we promoted marriage between a man and a woman. Why? Because it brings so many great benefits. We prohibit now polygamy, incest, and pedophilia for obvious reasons.  And for obvious reasons we prohibited for a long time same sex relationships because they were so harmful. But the Supreme Court came along and said, “€œYou can’t do that any more.”€ So now we permit homosexual relationships and unmarried heterosexual relationships. Now what the Supreme Court has done is they’ve elevated homosexual relationships to promotion.


The Benefits Of a Stable Society

Isaiah said, “€œWoe to those who call evil good and good evil.”€ There’s a difference between permitting something and promoting something. And we are promoting marriage between same sex partners.


Really, what we’ve done is we’ve made marriage genderless now. Well, if marriage is genderless, what does it have to do with children? Nothing. That’s the danger. In fact,, you can see this on vocations. We promote police work. Why? Because it brings so many benefits to everybody. We permit most other vocations and we prohibit some like being a hitman, right? Those are harmful vocations.


Now question, if we promote police work but you decide not to be a police officer, you’re say an accountant or something. Are you being discriminated against because the government is promoting police work? No, in fact, you actually get the benefit of police work even if you never become a police officer. Same thing is true with marriage. You get the benefit of marriage even if you never get married yourself. The same thing is true. You get the benefits of all this right here even if you consider yourself a homosexual, in the sense that you have homosexual desires and you want to act those out. You get the benefits of a stable society even if you never participate in that institution called marriage between a man and a woman.


What about sexual orientation a protected class. This is the next thing coming that you guys have to be ready for and they’re going to try and say something to you like, “€œWell do you think gays ought to be discriminated against in the workplace?”€


They Ought Not Be Discriminated Against, But They Ought Not Be Favored Either

My answer is no, they ought not be discriminated against but they ought not be favored either. In fact, this whole thing is a solution in search of a problem. Are homosexuals discriminated against in the workplace? No, they run the workplace. Why else would so many companies in North Carolina decide they’re going to pull out of North Carolina, like Pay-Pal and others because of a law they had never even read?


My friend, Dan Forrest, who’s a lieutenant governor in North Carolina called an executive at a major organization and said, “€œThe day after he came out against HB2, Dan called him up and said, “€œHave even read it?”€


“€œNo, I don’t even know what was in it.”€  “€œWhy? Because the so-called human rights campaign, whatever the Human Rights Campaign says, they just jumped at it. “€œ


Moment From America”€™s History: James Wilson Saw No Conflict Between Religion and The Law.


This is David Barton with another moment from America’s history. Today, numerous court decisions demonstrate that there’s often a conflict between the courts, the law, and religion. Has this conflict always existed? Not according to James Wilson. James Wilson was a signer of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. He was a law professor as well as an original justice on the U.S. Supreme Court.


ames Wilson saw no conflict between religion and the law. In fact,, just the contrary he declared, “€œHuman law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistance. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other.”€ In the views of Founding Father, James Wilson religion and good civil law were inseparable.


For more information on God’s hand in American history contact WallBuilders at 1800-8 REBUILD.


Lawsuits Arising


Let me ask you this, are you going to have more trouble in the workplace if you’re against same sex marriage or for same sex marriage? You’re going to have more trouble if you’re against it. Don’t tell me that people in the workplace, homosexuals, are discriminated against. They’re not.


And by the way this is not like race because race has no impact on your behavior. But what you do sexually may actually have an impact on business. In fact, this gives preference to an endless list of behaviors that may harm business.


And by the way, sexual orientation isn’t even defined. This actually came off a pro-gay website. Should businesses be forced to give preference to those who identify as – all these came off the pro-gay website look at this, I am not even get to read it, it’s crazy. Facebook now has what 59 different so-called genders? Are we going to give preference to people who say engage in the behavior of cross-dressing? What’s going to happen in business if you say sexual orientation is a protected class? If a company has to downsize are they going to downsize the cross dresser who can bring a lawsuit? Or are they going to downsize John and Jane Doe? They’re going to downsize John and Jane Doe because they don’t want the lawsuit come in from the cross-dresser.


Six Reasons Why North Carolina Got It Right.

In fact,, such a law favors 3 percent of people who engage in medically unhealthy behavior over 97 percent of the people who do not. That’s anything but equality, it’s inequality. It’s a solution in search of a problem. Don’t buy into this same sex marriage or sexual orientation, a protected class.


How about bathrooms and showers? This just came up in North Carolina, and let me say to you that just about everything you’ve heard in the media about it, it’s false. I actually did a speech on this at the Capitol, you can look it up. Six reasons why North Carolina got it right. I don’t have time to go through the six here. But let me just give you a few of these.


First of all, it’s complete misinformation by the media. What happened was in Charlotte, North Carolina a liberal mayor by the name of Jennifer Roberts decided she was going to pass a law she didn’t have the authority to pass which said that every bathroom in Charlotte, North Carolina has to be gender neutral and it was going to go into effect April 1.


She didn’t have the authority to pass that. So the legislature got together and said we need to stop this because it’s going to endanger public safety. So the legislature passed what’s known as HB2. The House Bill 2 and Pat McCrory signed it, the governor.  And the media has demagogued it ever since. They’re trying to say you’re taking rights away from gay people. No they’re not.


Governor McCrory Is In a Recount Right Now.

What happened was certain localities like Durham, liberal localities, had passed sexual orientation laws like I just mentioned. They never had the authority to pass, these people we’re now giving preferences to the LGBTQ alphabet people. And the state came in and said, “€œNo, all employment law in North Carolina is uniform across all localities.”€ As a business, you can’t do business if every town that you’re in has a different law related H.R. It’s impossible.


So they said everything is back to the way it should be. And so the media demagogued it and they managed to flip public opinion according to the exit polls. And now Governor McCrory is in a recount right now. Because in the last minute of the returns 90,000 votes came in from Durham. And so Mercuri went up by being several thousand to down by being about 5,000 to put in the other guy.


Now my friend, Dan Forrest, who is the lieutenant governor got more votes than Trump because his slogan is Run Forrest Run. How could you not vote for that? But he is an Evangelical and he’s behind this.


Now, there’s no discrimination against anyone because bathroom shower use our behaviors regulated for public safety. Nobody’s being discriminated against. We’re not saying gays can’t go to the bathroom. We’re not saying there is no bathroom that you can use. We’re saying use the bathroom of your biological sex. Would you want a biological man going into the locker room of your teenage girl? That’s what’s going on. This is the lunacy of the left.


Transgenderism Is When You Have A Mismatch Between Psychology And Biology

Also let me ask you this, what is transgenderism? There’s no definition of it. Yes, you know what it is?  Transgenderism is when you have a mismatch between your psychology and your biology. It’s a mismatch between your psychology and your biology or you might say your psychology and your physicality.


I’ve a friend of mine whose daughter is suffering right now with anorexia. She’s got the same thing. She has a mismatch between her psychology and her physicality. She thinks she’s fat but she’s not. Now would you help her by affirming her anorexia? Or helping her get out of it? You’re going to help her by helping her get out of it. You don’t help people by affirming a mismatch between their psychology and their biology. In fact, affirming the mismatch between psychology and biology harms the individual.


Transgender Surgery Patients Have 20 Times Higher Suicide Rate Than Anyone Else

This is why Dr. Paul McHugh at John Hopkins University wrote in The Wall Street Journal last June that transgenderism is a mental disorder. Now it sounds offensive when you say that.  But what if it’s true? It is a mental disorder. And he said, “€œWe no longer do so-called sex transition surgery at John Hopkins University because what actually happens is 20 years later the people actually get the surgery have a suicide rate 20 times higher than anybody else.”€


Heterosexual Predators Use The Bathroom Law As a Ruse

You don’t fix a psychological problem with surgery. You need psychiatry for that, maybe medication, but not surgery. And the problem actually isn’t with so-called transgendered people when it comes to bathroom’s.  It comes from heterosexual predators who use the law as a ruse to get access to women and children.


Now should we not protect ninety nine point seven percent of the population in order to give 0.3 percent of the population a little better feeling about where they go to the bathroom? No. As legislators, we have to do what’s best for the vast,, vast majority of the people to protect them from harm.  So you need to stand against laws that are changing what we believe about where people should go to the bathroom.


Three Mind Changing Questions to Ask Opposers

Now here are three mind changing questions you can use with people. And again this is from Greg Koukl book “€œTactics.”€ When somebody says something you want to ask them a question.

1. What do you mean by that?


They call you a bigot.  You should say, “€œWhat do you mean by bigotry?”€ Soon as they try and define it, they’re going to be in trouble. T


They call you intolerant. You say, “€œWhat do you mean by intolerance? Is it intolerant because I don’t agree with you? Well then you’re intolerant because you don’t agree with me.”€


  1. Next question is, “€œHow did you come to that conclusion? What evidence do you have for this position? Why do you think this is a good policy?”€


  1. Then the third question is, “€œHave you ever considered that affirming a mismatch between psychology and biology actually harms the individual? Did you ever consider that?”€  You’re not helping people by doing that.


By the way, all these questions are in the app that Rick had mentioned, Cross Examined app. Two words in the app store Cross Examined.


Those questions, What do you mean by that?  How do you come to that conclusion?  Have you ever considered? They’re also in Greg Koukl book “€œTactics.”€ As Edmund Burke famously said, “€œThe only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.”€ That’s why Franklin when he was asked right after they got the Constitution, they came out of the Constitutional Convention and a woman asked him, “€œDr. Franklin what kind of government have you given us?”€ and he said, “€œA republic if you can keep it”€.


Fight Evil Because Evil Is Pervasive.  If Not You, Who?

You have to fight evil because evil is pervasive.  And if not you, who? And by the way, you always hear, “€œGive to Caesar what is Caesar’s.”€ You are Caesar. You know that? You are Caesar in this country.  You get to make the laws.  You get to make the rules.  So make them rightly.


Would you rather have a country more like South Korea or North Korea? You need to be involved then. So, let’s sum this up, should Christians be involved in politics? Of course! Are only atheist qualified to run the country? Can we legislate morality? You can’t NOT legislate morality.  The only question is whose morality should we legislate? Not mine, not yours, The.


What are the stakes? Your children, your grandchildren, the ability to preach the gospel, life, religious liberty, and many other issues are at stake. And what can you do about it? You’re already doing something. You can get more educated about how to articulate these issues and spread them amongst your constituents. That would be very helpful.



There are some books. I co-wrote one called “€œLegislating Morality”€ which deals with these issues. The book I have here “€œCorrect Not Politically Correct, Same Sex Marriage Hurts Everyone,”€ and then “€œStealing From God, Why Atheists Need God to Make Their Case.”€ Then if you go to this website CrossExamined.org/FF if you type that in your browser and send me an email I’m going to send you some resources that will help you.


I’m not going to share your email with anybody else but it”€™s CrossExamined.org/FF. I also wrote a book called “€œI Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist.”€ You may have heard of that. We are on YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook. Our Facebook page is called Cross Examined. https://www.facebook.com/CrossExamined.org/?fref=ts. Please like them. And then Dr. Frank Turek https://www.facebook.com/drfrankturek?pnref=story.  Like those.


In fact, were so into YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook, we’ve actually combined these three into one social media platform.  We call it YouTwitFace. You may want to sign up for that. We’re on radio on Saturday.  We’re on TV on Wednesday night as Rick said.  And it’s all on the app, so do it. Thank you for what you’re doing out there, and here is our website.  See yah!


Rick Green:

Well, that’s the conclusion of Dr. Frank Turek speaking at the Pro-family Legislators Conference. Thank you for listening to Frank Turek here WallBuilders Live! It”€™s a special program and if you missed yesterday, it’s available at our website right now at WallBuildersLive.com.