Can You Be a Good Person Without God?Â Morality and Goodness Not Only Come From God, But Are Defined by Him As Well.Â Â Today a majority of Americans think that you have no need of God in order to be a good person and do good things. Krish Dhanam joins us to discuss what the reality of goodness is, and that to have a moral law, you must have a Moral Law Giver.Â A nation that rejects His standards is on the road to ruin.
Air Date:Â 10/31/2017
Guests: Krish Dhanam,Â David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton
- WallBuilders | American historical events, founding fathers, historical documents, books, videos, CDs, tapes, David Barton’s speaking schedule.
- Coupons: Use promo code WBL17 to receive 10% off your entire order on ALL WallBuilders Store Products!!
- Helpful links
- TODAY’S LINKS:
- Avalon Project
- Benjamin Franklin Letter To Thomas Paine
- Krish Dhanam
- Krish Dhanam YouTube
- Jesus Among Other Gods
- God’s Way Is Still the Best Way
- Pastors Only Briefing Trip
Download: Click Here
Transcription note: Â As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.
Faith And The Culture
Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture, this is WallBuilders Live! Where we”re talking about today”s hottest topics on policy, and faith, and the culture, always from a Biblical, historical, and Constitutional perspective. You take those three perspectives, you’re going to get to the right answer on any issue of the day.
We’re here with David Barton, he”s America’s premier historian and our founder here at WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, he”s a national speaker and pastor, and he”s the president of WallBuilders. My name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator.
You can find out more about us, you can actually get some archives of the program over the last few weeks, and a lot of other great information right there at our website WallBuildersLive.com, WallBuildersLive.com. And if you really want to get equipped, inspired, educated go to WallBuilders.com without the “Live,” WallBuilders.com. And there are some fantastic tools there for you and your family, be sure and check that out today.
Later in the program, Krish Dhanam will be with us. We see this poll now guys, where they”re saying that when you look in the culture faith may not be quite as important to people anymore. They seem to think that you can be a good person even if you don’t have faith or religion. In fact, it’s something like 56 percent according to this latest poll, think that you can absolutely do good things, be a good person, you don’t need any moral base. Â You don’t need any God to be able to do those things.
The Majority of America Would Argue that Man Is Basically Good
Yeah, Rick. This is one of the things that we really battle with us working with the next generation, with young people, whether it’s- even at Patriot Academy. Â But for us just in general with all the young people we work with. For millennials, the majority of millennials, and I’m saying millennials. Â I mean really it’s still the majority of Americans no matter what demographic you’re in for the most part- are going to argue that man is basically good.
And if you’re basically good then you don’t need God to be good. Â So it’s an obvious connection. But this is where- and I don’t know if it’s just as you get older you realize it’s not true. Â Or if it’s the older generation still had more of a Biblical foundation to realize that, “No, no, no. There is a fallen, sinful human nature. There’s a reason Jesus came.”
Right? There’s more to it. Â So I don’t know necessarily if it’s just they get older and wiser or they had a better foundation.
We Need the Bible Because We Will Not Be Good on Our Own
But what we are battling in culture is we see people that think, “We don’t need God.” Â Â And this is exactly the opposite what the Founders really desired. When we talk about when they started education, the reason that they started education was to make sure people could read the Bible. And I say Founders- really back up to the Puritans, is really the kind of people that did this with the Pilgrims. But they said, “We know that without the Bible we’re not going to do this.”
Well, now jump forward to the Founders. We can point to Founders who, even though there are some Founders we could agree were not Christians, even they argued, with the exception of Thomas Paine, even they argued we need the Bible because it produces a moral foundation. Â And we recognize if there is not a God-awareness a God-consciousness with God”s system and standard of morality you’re not going to be good on your own.
Thomas Paine And His Attacks on Christianity
Well, Thomas Paine is a great example. Because Thomas Paine who wrote “Common Sense” and he wrote the “Rights of Man” all these pamphlets in the early years of America, in the American Revolution period. Ben Franklin is the guy who helped bring him to America. Ben Franklin, we’re going to say right out, is one of the five least religious Founding Fathers. Just put that on the table and we agree. He’s one of our least.
But remember we said least religious. Â That does not mean he’s anti-religious. And you’ll see that in just a second.
So he helps get Thomas Paine here. He gets Paine set up in the printing business with Robert Aitken of Philadelphia and on it goes. Well, these two have a pretty lifelong relationship. And late in Franklin’s life, actually, the year he died, his friend Thomas Paine sent him a manuscript and said, “I’m working on a book.” Â Which was going to become “The Age of Reason” which was a specific attack on the Bible, attack on Christianity, etc.
And he said, “Ben, look over this. Give me your thoughts.” And nobody knew Ben was going to die that year. So Ben writes back, in one of the last letters of his life. Â He tells Thomas Paine he said, “I’ve read this. Â And you sent it to me. Â You probably weren’t asking for my opinion, but I’m going to give it to you.”
Ben Franklin Rebukes Paine for Attacking Christianity
And the opinion you”re about to read, you actually, so for our listeners they can go online and they can even just do a basic search for “Benjamin Franklin letter to Thomas Paine.” Â And it really is worth going and reading this actual letter, because we don’t have time to read probably the entire letter here on air. But the entire letter is pretty astounding when he tells Thomas Paine…
And it”s not a long letter. Â It’s, I think, only four paragraphs maybe in the letter. It”s not long.
Again, we’re not going to read the whole thing, but it’s worth reading the whole thing. So just get online. Do it. Not when you’re driving, but when you have a chance do a basic search and just look it up. Â And you will be astounded by what Benjamin Franklin, who today we can all agree one of the least religious Founding Fathers, the way he kind of rebukes Thomas Paine for attacking Christianity.
Alright, so David is going to read that letter. We’ll be right back. Stay with us, folks. Ben Franklin’s letter to Thomas Paine, on Thomas Paine’s draft which really was very negative on Christianity.
Stay with us. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.
This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. Many today wrongly claim that our Founding Fathers were largely atheists, agnostics, and deist.
Certainly, some Founders were less religious than others, but even they were not irreligious. Consider Benjamin Franklin, definitely one of the least religious among them, yet, when the delegates at the Constitutional Convention hit an impasse in their deliberations it was Franklin who called them to prayer, invoking numerous scriptures to make his point.
As he reminded them, “God governs in the affairs of men. If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured in the sacred writings that, except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this.”
So, even the least religious of America’s Founders urged public prayer in dependence on God. For more information about the faith of the Founding Fathers go to WallBuilders.com.
Ben Franklin”s Letter to Thomas Paine
Welcome back! Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Later in the program, Krish Dhanam with us.
David Barton was just about to read from that letter. So it”s Ben Franklin writing to Thomas Paine. Â David, you said this is in response to Paine sending him this draft that was very negative on faith and religion.
Actually, Thomas Paine is the one who drafted the recent poll that we just saw that went out that said you can be good without God. That was Thomas Paine’s question in the poll. Essentially it is.
And that’s what a Paine was saying back in this piece back then. Â “Hey, I’m not a Christian. I don’t like the Bible. I hate Bible, hate Christianity and look how good I am. And I don’t have God.”
“If Men are So Wicked with Religion, What Would They Be If Without It?”
And so here’s Ben Franklin- again, one of the five least religious. Here’s what he said. Â He says, “I have read your manuscript with some attention.” He says, “At present, I shall only give you my opinion. That the consequence of printing this piece will be a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself. Mischief to you and no benefit to others. He that spits in the wind, spits in his own face. I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it?”
And he goes on and says, Â “By the way, you talk about all these great character traits you have. You have loyalty, and virtue, and truthfulness.” Â And he said, “Do you forget that you learned all that in your Christian education? You may not be a Christian now, but you got that from religion.”
And here in America for those who say, “Well, we don’t have to- you don’t have to have God to be good.” You forget that this nation has good in it because of all those Biblical teachings. Â
And just because you don’t know them now doesn’t mean they didn’t produce a good culture. If you doubt that, head for Somalia. Go to Sudan. See how Saudi Arabia works. Oh, just go to France. That’s a great-
Try any place that doesn’t have an active Christian faith. Â And see how good the people are there.
America Is Enjoying a Residual Effect of Previous Generations” Biblical Morality
You think we actually have, we’re enjoying a residual effect of that-
Strong faith. Even though it’s not as strong as it was before. We have a lot of these people that have repudiated religion but say they’re still good. They’re exhibiting the benefits of generations before us being predominantly Christian.
And because of the generations before, Rick, as you’re mentioning, so many laws that we have in America are because of Christianity. So much of the way that we operate institutions, and organizations, and structure, and education- it’s based on Christian principles. Which, of course, in all of our talks, and in so much of our writings, we outline all these sayings and so we mentioned if people are interested they go to WallBuilders.com. Â And they can see so much of this. But it”s because of Christianity that we do so much of what we do.
The Reason Behind So Much of What We Do In America is Due to Christianity
And so even if you say, “I am not a Christian,” well, the reason we do much of what we do in America whether it”s from our free market economics, or our public school education, or our religious toleration, or our rights of conscience. Â You can go down a slew of examples. Â The reason we do those is because of Christianity.
Alright, so good. In fact, we’re going to have Krish Dhanam with us when we come back from the break. Now, Krish, I’ve known him for 25 years. He was Zig Ziglar”s international ambassador for years. He’s now with Ravi Zacharias.
Really a brilliant guy that came to America literally with nine bucks in his pocket. Â Legally, came to America legally with nine bucks in his pocket. And is just a great example of assimilating into the American culture and then embracing what it really means to be an American. And now just a great advocate for American values, and a great defender of the faith. Krish Dhanam when we return on WallBuilders Live.
Hey, guys, this is Tim Barton with WallBuilders. I know you hear my dad and Rick talk a lot about our Founding Fathers about the original intent of our nation, a constitutional heritage that we have. And really we’ve seen how far we slipped away from that. And I know a lot of us as we hear my dad and Rick talk think, “I wish there was a place that I could go where I could see these documents and I could read and learn about the Founding Fathers firsthand. Â See the things they did.” Â
I want to give you some websites today that can help you accomplish that very thing. If you get online you can go to places like Library of Congress and you can look under their century of lawmaking or historical documents. You can go to the Avalon Project, to the Founders Constitution, Google Books, or even the internet archives. Â
Or you can just go to WallBuilders.com. We have a section for our WallBuilders Library. And under that section, we have different subgroups for historical documents, historical writings, even a place where you can get helpful links to find out more information about other websites. Â Where you can do research for yourself and find the truth for yourself. Friends, this is the time that we need to know who we are and where we came from. WallBuilders.com is a great place to go.
Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Â Thanks for staying with us. Our good friend Krish Dhanam with us once again. Krish, good to have you back, man. Â It’s been too long!
Well, Rick, thanks a lot for having me. It’s always a joy to be with you and around you.
Well, before we even dive into our topic for today, give us your website. People are going to hear you today, some for the first time, and say, “I want some more of that Biblical wisdom. Where do I go to get some Krish Dhanam materials?”
Well, the books and all are available on Amazon, but if they just went to
KrishDhanam.com. Â Or if you just type in my name online they’ll find the YouTube clips and all the other stuff that they can enjoy.
And we’ll have links today at WallBuilders Live to make it easy for you. Several books, “The American Dream: From an Indian Heart,” “From Abstracts to Absolutes.” You were a big part of Ziglar’s book “Top Performance.” Â You were with Zig for what, two decades?
Yeah, 20 years. In fact, I’m doing devotions for them coming up talking about God, in about a week and a half.
And now you’re doing a lot with Ravi Zacharias Ministries. Traveling not just around the country, but around the world teaching truth. Â Not just success skills, but really you’ve begun to enter this apologetics world of, what do we really believe? Is there truth? How do we show it? How do we prove it? That’s become a real interest of yours over the last few years.
The Intersection of Faith and Culture Is Our Biggest Issue
Yeah, it’s almost been about a 10 years jaunt now, but I now serve as a global adjunct speaker with Ravi Zacharias. And yeah, you’re right. Â I do a lot of the work for them in India, but most recently added Kenia. Â Next year, we’ll add a couple of more stops along the way.
But yeah, the intersection of faith and culture is our biggest issue. And how do we talk about defending the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the faith component, in a world that seems to believe that- as we conventionally think that morals are not grounded in a moral law. Â So, we go at it logically and connect both the emotion and the logic the best way we know how.
Well, that’s part of why David and Tim both said, “Man, we”ve got to get Krish on this topic.” We saw an article that was saying for the first time a majority of Americans, about 56 percent of this last polling, are saying you can be a good person without religious belief. Â Â That we don’t need to believe in God in order to have good morals. So it”s the old Thomas Paine argument. What’s your response to that Krish?
Moral Law Comes From a Moral Law Giver
Well, two things. First, a moral law comes from a moral lawgiver. So we as a society, at least as an immigrant to the United States observing for the last 30 years in culture, I’ve seen that we have removed the word “morality” from the lexicon and introduced the word “justice.” When you take the word “morality” out, what happens is you can abdicate God’s responsibility and introduce man’s authority.
So we went from morality to justice and as a result, remove God and put man in. But a moral law presupposes that there is a moral lawgiver. And as a result, the Christian worldview always says that our morals come from God. And C.S. Lewis says, “I believe in God the same way I believe in the sun, not because I can see the sun but because through the sun I can see everything better.”
From a Christian perspective our morals, we subscribe to the fact- and it’s surprising that Christians would, 56 percent, would say, “You can be good without God.” Technically, you can, but that’s a different argument and I’ll get to that in a second.
Jesus Christ Did Not Come to Make Bad People Good, He Came to Make Dead People Live
But the reality is this one issue, and that is Jesus Christ did not come to earth to make bad people good. He came to make dead people live.
So a Christian God and a Christian moral is not just whether you help grandma cross the street, or whether you don’t park in a handicapped spot, and try to preserve your integrity in day to day living. It is functioning in every aspect of your life.
And again going back to Lewis that great apologist. Â What he said was- he says, “Piano keys are not good and bad. Â Because piano keys can be both good at the right time and bad at the wrong time.”
So same thing. Â In order to make a life work, we need both the good and the bad. And there’s only one person who differentiates that. Because badness can exist in the absence of goodness. Goodness just exists. You see what I’m saying?
We Don”t Talk About Morality Anymore
Yeah, so if you’d- even the things, the little things you mentioned- not park in a handicapped, little ethical issues. That’s really symptoms. Right? Of the heart itself. And you don’t get the goodness in the heart, that makes you want to act on those things if God’s not in the equation.
Absolutely. And the majority of our discussion, like I said- we don’t talk about morality anymore, and right and wrong. And Dennis Prager, for example, gives this brilliant illustration. He debated an atheist professor by the name of Jonathan Glover many years ago. Â This may have been in early 90″s in Oxford. “Can we be good without God?” was the name of that debate.
And Ravi Zacharias, who we mentioned earlier, talks about him in the book “The Real Face of Atheism.” He mentions this illustration. And I wanted to give it to you verbatim. Prager asked, “If you, Professor Glover, were stranded at the midnight hour in a desolate Los Angeles street. And if you stepped out of your car with fear and trembling you were suddenly to hear the weight of pounding footsteps behind you, and you saw ten burly young men who had stepped out of a dwelling coming towards you. Would it, or would it not make a difference to you to know they were coming from a Bible study?”
This hilarious laughter in the auditorium. Glover conceded that it would make a difference.
That”s so good.
Always Be Ready To Give A Defense of the Gospel with Meekness and Kindness
So the question is- we always want to debate this, and it’s always an altruistic definition. And Christians have actually sacrificed and ceded some of these arguments because they don’t know how to defend it. And the defense becomes easy, within the Bible we are asked always be ready to give a defense of the gospel but do it with meekness and kindness.
So we don’t have to be in your face explaining that “My good morals come from Christ. Â And I have to thump you over the head with the Bible.” But our entire lives reflect that goodness.
So while it is easy to be good in the conventional, societal terms of what goodness means by doing the right thing every day and not having faith. Â The reality is those that have that faith for them that goodness is intrinsic. They don’t do it because it’s needed or because it’s defined. It’s an intrinsic conscience adjustment.
And that also has more of a lasting effect. Right? I mean just as a student of history, as you are as well, how many times- how long does a culture strive to be good if they don’t have what you just described in terms of the motivation for why they’re being good?
Any Culture That Redefines Basic Morality Will Cease to Be a Superpower
Sure, and Mr. Ziglar used to quote Unwin who was an anthropologist who wrote a book called “Sex and the Culture.” See that is one of the things- sexuality which is sacred within the confines of a Judeo-Christian identity- is now made into an action, or an emotion, or whatever it is.
So when Unwin wrote “Sex and the Culture,” I think it was back in the 30″s, he said, “Any culture that redefines basic morality, within four generations will cease to be a superpower.” And this guy studied, I think 88 different people groups and five civilizations dating back to Greece and Mesopotamia.
And it’s very startling to think, Rick, that if he wrote this in the 30s this is pre-World War II. And we look at where we are- about 80 years away from that. America is perilously close to being about three and a half generations away from that prediction.
Wow, that’s powerful right there. And that’s, you really, you go back and you trace it. Â It is a big, that has been frankly at the heart of the whole moving away from God and moving away from the morals is the sexual revolution. And “I want to do what feels good. And in my own eyes.” As you said before, switching from morality to justice. “I get to define justice. Â If there is no set morality given by the Moral Giver.”
Wisdom Becomes the Correct Use of Knowledge
Yeah, and the wisest man in the Bible that we know, who came people came for his judgment when he was asked what he wanted from God. He said, “I want wisdom.” And wisdom becomes the correct use of knowledge. So how do you do that discernment? I have a knowledge of what right and wrong.
The old argument is always given by the humanists and every other kind. Â As I think Hill was a guy who says, “I’m tired of all these “isms” that should have been “wasms.”” Â Â We have the scientism, humanism, atheism, and all these “isms.””
But the age-old debate is “If two guys living in a cave, and one killed the other- morality only happens because after a while he begins to feel the absence of the person he killed. And there is nothing intrinsically wrong with having killed. Because that intrinsic wrong that comes from having killed apparently comes from God.”
So they make the debate that, “If two people are living in a cave and one kills the other, the conscience is only affected because he’s lonely.” Well, if that’s the case, why don’t animals then just stop after the first killing. There’s something that separates us from the animal kingdom. Right?
The Beauty In Having a God-Given Morality
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
So these intrinsic things are woven in, and we are corrected as children.Â I remember one person telling me the beauty of having a God-given morality allows you to have dependence when you get that morality from your parents, allows you to have independence when you rebel and go away from everything in the world believing you can figure it out. And then allows you to reclaim that morality when you get back to interdependence and you feel you have to be part, and you can’t live by yourself by isolation.
What is a good place for people that are listening right now and saying, “I want to understand this better.” What’s a good place for them to start?
The Biblical View of Morality Is Different From Every Other View of Morality
Well, the best book I would recommend, which gives the Judeo-Christian identity the book called “Jesus Among Other Gods” by Ravi Zacharias.Â It was one of the books that changed my mindset in terms of why the Biblical view of morality is different from every other view of morality because every other worldviews morality is based on works.
The Christian worldview says, “You don’t have to do anything to be good. Â And there’s nothing you can do, or goodness you can show that allows me to want you.”
In the Christian worldview, we have the fact that He comes as the ultimate sacrifice. So that would be a brilliant book, “Jesus Among Other Gods.” And of course, Zig Ziglar”s “God’s Way Is Still the Best Way” is of course, you know, I”m partial to anything he ever wrote.
“God’s Way Is Still the Best Way” -Zig Ziglar, and then “Jesus Among Other Gods.”
“Among Other Gods” by Ravi Zacharias.
Ravi Zacharias. Krish Dhanam, always a pleasure. So appreciate you taking time to be with our audience today. Â Look forward to getting you back again.
All right my friend, God bless. Talk to you soon.
Stay with us, folks, we”ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.
Hi, this is Tim Barton with WallBuilders and I want to encourage all the pastors out there with a unique opportunity that we’re presenting it WallBuilders. We’re doing a special tour just for pastors that you can come and learn more about the spiritual heritage of our nation. Not just seeing the sights but understanding the significance of what they are and what they represent.
We get to go to the Capitol at night. Â And we get to see the spiritual heritage of our Founding Fathers, of who we are as a nation, where we came from. We bring in congressman that will tell you about current legislation, about our religious liberties and freedom, and what’s going on in Washington, D.C.
If you’re a pastor or if you want to recommend your pastor for this trip, you can go to our website at www.WallBuilders.com. And there’s a link that’s for scheduling. Â If you click on that link there’s a section for pastor”s briefing. There’s more information about the dates, when it’s going, and how it’s going to happen. If you want to know more about our nation, our religious liberties, our freedom, our spiritual heritage, this is a trip you want to be a part of.
How Many Generations Does it Take Before You Lose that Residual Effect?
Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Thanks to Krish Dhanam for joining us. We”ll have some links to his website today, and some of those books as well. Back with David and Tim now.
And guys, I mean Krish was echoing exactly what you were saying at the beginning of the program. People might make the right decision today and say, “Hey, I’m like Thomas Paine, I’m doing good things.” But how many generations does it take before you lose that residual effect we were talking about earlier, once you lose religion itself in the culture?
Yeah. And as he pointed out that book, and we’ve got that book. We actually have that book in our library. It is a great book. Actually in that book, he actually goes further to say if a civilization rejects, he didn’t say Biblical morality, he said what was called sexual restraint.
He points out if you get to where that you no longer believe in monogamous marriage, that adultery is no longer wrong, if you no longer believe in abstinence before marriage. And he came from a secular viewpoint, and he looked over 4,000 years, I think 86 different cultures. He says when you reject that morality, and he didn’t use God. Â He just said when every civilization he looked at, 80 some odd- If you reject these moral standards you will be gone within four generations.
Without God”s Standard, Goodness Is Subjective
As Krish pointed out, I think is one of the most significant things. Â He said, “How do we define goodness apart from God?” And that’s a really big deal to say, “I can be good without God.”
“Well, what do you mean by good?” Because at that point it becomes subjective.
“Well, to me this is, well, to me this is what goodness is.” Well, if you go to a Muslim nation right now, “goodness” would be very different than what we define goodness as here in America.
But the reason we define it differently is because of God. Because of those Biblical standards, of those moral standards as we”re mentioning even in this book, they outline these moral standards. Well, how do we know what’s moral?
Because what’s moral to some people and some religions is not moral to other people in other religions. So, if there is no God, there’s no objective standard of truth or objective standard of morality or goodness.
So if there is no God, how do we even know what’s good? How can you say somebody is not good or is good because it’s purely subjective. So you couldn’t look at what the shooter did in Las Vegas and say, “Oh, that’s not good.” Well if there’s no God –
By whose standards?
Subjective Reality Doesn”t WorkÂ
If there’s no God, maybe he thought it was good. So how can you say it was? But this is the problem with a subjective reality, is “well it’s up to the individual.” That doesn’t work. Apart from God, there can be no goodness.
Well, he talked about that to have a moral law, you have to have a moral lawgiver.
That”s a great point.
He said only God can differentiate for us the difference between good and bad. And so the moral law that we want to follow comes from a moral lawgiver, who is the one who tells us what’s moral and what’s not moral. If you don’t have that, as Tim pointed out, everything becomes subjective. And that’s where we are in America by the way, where that four out of five Millennials believe there is no absolute moral truth. Â “We will decide our own morals.”
Morality and Goodness Not Only Come From God But Are Defined by Him
Well, you only say that because you have about three and a half centuries of Biblical foundation in the nation that you still have the residual effect- what’s right and wrong. You just don’t recognize that it came from religious moorings. But you look across the world, you will not be good without God, at least not for long. You can have some residual effect, and that’s kind of where America is.
Yes. No doubt. I mean you could see what Krish was describing, you could see that in our culture, in that timeline as he was describing. Â And honestly, how much of that time on is left? What”s so important for us to come back to these foundational values.
Thanks for listening today folks! We appreciate you joining us here on WallBuilders Live.