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National Security, Woke Corporations, And America’s Future – With Mike Pompeo: How should the current administration be handling Iran? How did the Trump Administration facilitate peace in the Middle East? What can be done to prevent the dismantling of Trump’s work in the Middle East? Will the Biden Administration try to protect American interest or persecuted Christians in China like the Trump Administration? Why are woke corporations favoring China when that country takes part in so much evil against their own citizens? What are the threats to our national security at home? Why is religious freedom a national security issue? Should we be proud to be Americans? Tune in to hear this eye-opening interview with former Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo.
Air Date: 08/18/2021
Guest: Mike Pompeo
On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton
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Transcription note: Â As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.
Faith and the Culture
Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live, where we’re talking about the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Later in the program, we got former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo with us. It’s going to be a great program.
Right now we’re here with David and Tim Barton, David’s America’s premier historian, and our founder here at WallBuilders, Tim Barton is a national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. I’m Rick green. I’m a former Texas legislator and America’s Constitution coach.
David and Tim, pretty cool, we’re going to have the Secretary of State on. He’s been continuing to be outspoken since they’ve been out of office, since we have now the Biden administration kind of undoing a lot of the Trump administration. It’s good to have his voice out there, and we’re thrilled to have him on the program today.
It is a strange thing to say. Now, while I guess it’s not strange for me to first say that I’ve got a lot more white hair than you guys. So I’ve been through a lot more history and presidential administrations. But it’s a strange thing to say that I have never kind of been infatuated with any Secretary of State we’ve ever had.
There’s some good ones, and they did a great job. But with Mike Pompeo, I felt like he’s one of me. I mean, I felt like he was kind of vicarious for a conservative constitutional Christian, who really loved America, wanted the best for America that he wasn’t an inside the beltway kind of guy, that he was an outsider who was actually looking out for the things that most Americans really care about.
And so I follow Mike Pompeo through the four years he was there with Trump. And I tell you, he’s just did so much good stuff. He was a great Congressman as well. But he didn’t really stand out as a congressman, but he really stood out as Secretary of State.
And he was an interesting example too of where Trump aligned himself and surrounded himself with so many good people that, I mean, initially, even Secretary Pompeo initially was not a big Trump fan, because he, like some of us had concerns initially, well, what direction is Trump going to go. And really, one of the things that we have seen and Secretary Pompeo really exemplified was that policies are so much more important than somebody’s personality when it comes to their leadership, when it comes to the nation.
And because of President Trump’s policies of what even Secretary Pompey was able to do, America benefited in so many significant ways over those four years. And we’re still enjoying some of those benefits right now, even though many of those are under attack from the Biden ministration. But he really is such an impressive person of faith, the background he has, conservative military, and outspoken Christian. So when he took that position, all of those things were revealed and came into effect and really guided much of the way he led as Secretary of State.
It’s pretty impressive resume. I mean, he graduated first in his class from West Point. And then, after serving in the military, went to law school at Harvard. So I mean, he’s got an amazing resume. Didn’t built up businesses, so you know, they didn’t just push paper.
I mean, he created jobs with businesses, and then ran for Congress, serve in Congress, and then became director of the CIA. So I didn’t realize that he had both service as director of CIA and as Secretary of State, and he was a lawyer graduating from Harvard, and was a West Point grad.
So I just kind of watched him a Secretary of State. Kind of like you, David, I was like, hey, this guy’s saying things that I believe that. And I didn’t follow him at all when he was a congressman. So it’s kind of cool to see that progression. Trump had a lot of wisdom in tapping him. And I think you’re right, David, he’s probably, I mean, maybe the best Secretary of State of my lifetime. I mean, he was incredibly effective.
Welcome Former Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo
And just think about those Middle East Peace Accords, all the different things he got done, incredible success serving as Secretary of State. So this is going to be really cool. We have the former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo with us. Secretary Pompeo, thanks for your time today.
Well, bless you. Thanks for having me on the show. I’m looking forward to our conversation.
Well, before I even ask you a question, we just want to say thank you for being so vocal and being out there. I get to catch some of your interviews. And with such a chaotic administration running the country right now, it’s great to have some commentary that helps put it in perspective and know that they’re still sane people out there.
What a different world we would live in if the election was different. But anyway, just thank you for continuing to be in the fight even now that the Biden administration has taken over.
It’s got to be a little frustrating, though, just a watch so much good that you guys did in a short period of time in four years, literally be dismantled. Let’s start with Iran. You’ve been pretty outspoken about the new leader of Iran. Tell us where you think this is going and what the administration should be doing and how it’s handling them?
Well, first of all, thanks. Thank you for the kind words. It was an enormous privilege to serve America for four years and to be part of the Trump administration to try and protect and defend our constitutional rights. And I did it every day knowing that I was an evangelical Christian, and so I was out working to try and deliver for him as well.
You know, as for Iran, and by the way, it has been hard to watch these last first 150 days, but not because of anything personally, undid something that Mike work done and that our administration work on, but because I know these aren’t the right things for the American people and their security.
With respect to Iran in particular, but the administration just has the wrong end of the stick. They don’t appreciate it that at its center, the Middle East is more secure when the United States and Israel on the same sheet of music, that we’re working together closely, that we’re protecting and helping the Israelis protect the sovereignty of their country and this very special place, Jerusalem.
When there’s a little gap, when there’s a little bit of space, or when the American ministration cozies up to the ayatollah, and this clerical regime in Iran, it puts Israelis at risk, it puts the very heart of the Jewish homeland at risk. And it makes Americans less secure as well.
The Middle East
And these guys appear intent on going back into the nuclear deal that they were in 2015. The Middle East is fundamentally different today because of the work that we did in the Abraham accords, and yet they continue to appease Iran and give them money and power.
In fact, I’m glad you mentioned that about Israel. And frankly, I mean, we would talk on this program all the time about how incredible, I mean, shocking, honestly, the agreements that you guys were able to put together.
Of course, John Kerry said for years those things couldn’t be done, there was no way to bring peace in that way. Can you give us any insight on that? Why was President Trump and you as Secretary of State so much more successful than both Republican and Democrat administrations over the last 20-30 years?
Well, you’re right. Look, for 40 years, it has been Washington establishment foreign policy. So bipartisan, that says you have to solve this difficult conflict between the Palestinians and Israel. We said, well, you know, we could send Mike, I could go travel back and forth from Jerusalem to Ramallah, and back and forth, and try and negotiate a little map, a little page here. But we’ve seen that fail.
And so President Trump gave us the room to go try something fundamentally different, that we’re going to go build out on the central understandings about American freedom, and Israeli democracy, and we’re going to make the case to these Gulf state leaders that this would be the best thing for them to do. And we found real leaders.
We found leaders in Mohammed bin Zayed in the United Arab Emirates, and the leadership in Bahrain and the Sudan, in Morocco, who were prepared to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist. And they did that in the context of understanding that we want better life for everyone, including the Palestinians, but we’re not going to sacrifice Israel security, one bleak to deliver that. And so I think that was it.
A Different Approach
We took a really different approach. We took a very strong support of the State of Israel, right. We moved the embassy. We recognize the Golan Heights as the rightful property of Israel. We refused to say that the Israelis were occupiers of the West Bank or of any territory.
And when we did those things, I think leaders in the region saw that we were serious and that made them have confidence that they too could recognize Israel’s right to exist. We changed the narrative, and then we were able to successfully along with Prime Minister Netanyahu, President Trump and those leaders in the Middle East able to change history as well.
Is there much that can be done to prevent the dismantling of what was accomplished? Can the senate do much in response? I mean, it’s 50-50 split, so it just seems like our hands are tied for the next three and a half years, is that the wrong read on this? What could we be doing?
My sense is this, those understandings have not taken on a life of their own. You now have [inaudible 08:46] being played in Dubai, right, the Israeli national anthem being played at Dubai medal ceremonies. We have airplanes flying from Dubai to Tel Aviv, Jaffa airport. The people in those two places are connected now.
And they understand they’re different things, right, one country, Islamic; another, Jewish. But they understand that is in their collective security interest, is in the collective economic interests of the two countries. And you see the same thing with Bahrain and with Sudan and with Morocco.
I think these agreements are going to continue. Sadly, to expand it, to build out that understanding and protect Israel even more, you need American leadership. And that’s going to be lacking for these three years.
So I’m hopeful that we will continue to build on what we did. I don’t see much risk that Congress will try and overturn it. But I do see risk that if the administration continues to cozy up to the Islamic Republic of Iran, that the leaders in the region will feel a great deal of pressure against recognizing Israel.
Well, speaking of cozying up, it feels that way with China as well. You guys took a tough stance against China, again gained a lot of ground. This administration seems to be the exact opposite with regard to China, is that accurate?
You know, I want to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. This one, it’s going to take a little while to see. But every indicator today suggests that they’re not going to take the same forceful response to protect Americans and secure our freedom in the way that we did. We were serious about making sure that the Chinese didn’t continue to steal millions of millions of jobs here.
We worked hard to protect persecuted Christians that were being treated horribly inside of China. We worked hard on the genocide that’s taking place in the western part of China. And then in the end of the administration, we saw the Wuhan virus come and kill hundreds of thousands of Americans.
We were beginning to impose real costs on the Chinese Communist Party for both the cover up of what they did, and the fact that they chose to export this virus, right. They knew they had sick people that were contagious with a highly lethal disease, and they put them on airplanes and permitted them to travel across the world. And we haven’t seen that much in history.
And we were beginning to impose real costs on them. There’s no indication this administration intends to do that.
Well, Secretary, I want to have a follow up question if I can. And looking at the culture, and there’s a lot going on right now where we’re watching Americans celebrate the Communist Party of China, where they’ve had 100 years, and Disney has actually used areas of China to do filming, actually, where they have literal slave camp slave labor. You’ve seen NBA stars and professionals come out in defense of China.
And I’m just curious, obviously, for you, you have a lot better insight than most Americans do into the reality of China, into some of the evils that they’re perpetuating on their own citizens. So do you think the position the Americans are taking, or at least for many Americans, and some of these even woke corporations, do you think their alignment with China is something that is in their ignorance?
Or are they maybe just pursuing the dollar more than hearing about humans? Why do you think people are favoring China when we’ve seen China doing so many evil things to their own citizens?
This is a really important question. My sense is that at least four years ago, it was the case that I think America’s hadn’t had this brought to their attention. The foreign policy of the United States for 40 plus years, by the way, Democrat and Republican was to engage more with the Chinese Communist Party, sell them some more trinkets, and they’ll leave us alone.
But what we saw very clear, then President Trump saw very clearly was what happens is Beijing doesn’t stay in Beijing, right? They stole millions of jobs. They hoisted this virus upon us.
And the horrors that are taking place inside of China, forced sterilizations, forced abandonment of pregnancies, abortions. These are the kinds of things we haven’t seen since the 1930s. And the scale is enormous.
And so I think American people are much more aware of this now, and now is the time to act. So businesses, the businesses that have been doing business there for a long time need to move their supply chain, they need to disconnect, especially around things that matter to America’s national security.
And I will tell you this, if you’re a CEO of a company, and you’re engaged in activity, where there’s for slave labor that is providing products, that’s not a line of work that you want to be in. If it saves you a few pennies, so be it. It’s not worth your soul. It’s not worth undermining the brand that you are trying to sell the American people.
I think companies are beginning to see this. I do think there will be those that will just decide it’s worth the candle, it’s worth the money, we can make a few bucks. And that’s where the government’s going to have to make some decisions about how long we’re going to permit this to continue.
The Chinese Communist Party is seeking to become the dominant power in the world. And if we have good American leadership, there’s no chance that it can happen. But if we are weak, we will simply be managing American decline. And that’s just unacceptable. Our founders would have never dreamed that that could happen.
Secretary, do you think that perhaps even some of the embracing of the Communist Party in China is some of the reflection of Americans now embracing Marxism, and so they’re kind of discounting maybe some of the evils because they think communism is a better system than having freedom, than having a free market? Do you think that plays any part?
I really do wonder as we’re seeing more and more universities, more and more professors, even now members of Congress that are openly supporting Marxism on some level, it does make me wonder if that could be also a connection to why people are now much more openly supporting China when it does seem so hypocritical, knowing that China is an abusive communist nation, knowing that communism has failed everywhere it’s been tried in the sense of what is done to its people.
And yet, we see Americans embracing ideologies and supporting China knowing this is not a good structure or system of government. Do you think it could have connection to just Americans now promoting Marxism, or do you think it’s different underlying issues?
Well, I imagine that there’re, for some, that’s the source of their desire to connect with the Chinese Communist Party’s that they actually believe that this is a system that is superior to our system. I think that’s a small minority today, but it’s too many. And your point about it being taught in our academies today, our elite institutions is absolutely true. Woke, we see it.
I remember, I would get asked, but what’s the biggest threat to United States? What’s the thing that keeps you up at night as Secretary?
And I would always remind them that I was talking about external threats. But the big threats are right here at home. If we keep teaching this garbage, this critical race theory that suggested that our founding was somehow illegitimate or racist, that is really dangerous.
It moves you to a place where you no longer can see the superiority of our system and the brilliance of our founders, that our Constitution. If you can’t see that, then the propaganda that the Chinese Communist Party puts out will really have an impact.
Undermining Our Republic
And those are the kinds of things that our Founders knew could actually undermine our Republic. They knew that it took bad of a virtue and character to lead. And if someone has began to accept some moral relativism, some idea that the United States is not the most exceptional nation in the world, if that would have become part of the indoctrination of the next generation, then the Chinese Communist Party will be smiling, and they’ll be successful.
Mr. Secretary, we appreciate so many things that you did in your time there. But one of the things that I really thought was just superior was the way that you and Ambassador Brownback work together in religious liberties across the world. And we saw a lot of things change, a lot of good advancement. So from where you are now, with that being an issue that you guys spent so much time on, where did you say the greatest victories, and where do you see the greatest challenges right now? What’s going on? Where do you think the danger points are?
So I did have a great partner working on religious freedom, actually, to Ambassador, I knew of as governor from my home state, Brownback, and President Trump as well, who gave us all the space we needed to work on religious freedom. You know, we knew a couple things. One we knew it was the morally right thing to do, that the moral human beings, each created the image of God, the more each of them have the right to practice their conscience, to exercise their faith, if they choose not to, so be it, the better each of them is.
But we also know it matter to American Security. Those countries that allow more religious freedoms that are more tolerant of people of faith are also less likely to go to war, and they’re more likely to be more stable countries as well. So we had multiple reasons that we worked so hard on this, and we put it as a real priority in a way no administration had.
We built these gatherings, you all will appreciate this, we built these gatherings at the State Department with thousands of faith leaders from all across the world came, it was truly glorious, Muslims and Bohai and Christians and Jews, people of every faith, the largest human rights events ever held with the State Department were the ministerials. We called them Religious Freedom Ministerial of the State Department.
It was really special, and we changed the lives of lots of people. And we made the religious liberty a more of a priority for so many countries around the world. I’m disheartened.
I think the next administration is going to abandon these events and this is the focus. I think they’ve put climate change at the top of their agenda, when we had the ability for human beings to practice their faith at the top of ours. This is an enormous mistake for the United States of America. And I very much regret it.
Mr. Secretary, you represented our country around the world. You’re proud of America and the American story. You’ve got a unique perspective as both a graduate of West Point and a graduate of Harvard Law, you kind of know what both sides are up to, I think. But you represented as well. What would you say to the individual out there that struggling with this whole battle right now over should I be proud to be an American? You know, what can I do to lift that flag again and make my kids proud to be Americans and be patriotic? What can the individual at home do? What would you encourage them to do?
Well, I always start with prayer. Pray for our leaders. Even if we disagree with the things, but then pray for them, with hope that they too will see the right direction for our country. Second, you asked if we should be proud to be an American? For all our challenges, this remains the most exceptional nation in the history of civilization.
And I have now had this chance these last 140-150 days to get out all across the country meeting with great Americans who are dedicated to retaking our government to putting us back in a place where we can actually deliver on the value sets that we’ve been talking about here today. It makes me very optimistic.
I’ve seen the energy. Moms and kids and folks from every ethnicity, from every race, from every age bracket, who said no, enough is enough, we’re not going to head down this part, we’re not going to let this happen in our schools, we’re not going to let this happen to our police. We should be very proud.
I think the American revival is upon us. And I think people are really seeing now that they’ve got to take this upon themselves that we can’t leave it to others. And we have to stay in the fight, never give an inch. And I’m incredibly optimistic that good things are coming, not only in elections in the months ahead, that matters for sure, but for our nation as well.
I love it. I love it. That’s such an encouraging word. Last question for you, Mr. Secretary. What’s next for Secretary Pompeo? Where are you headed? What’s in your plans?
So I’m spending a good chunk of my time helping good candidates all across America have the money that they need, the resources they need, the volunteers they need to have done, I don’t know. Three dozen events or so, so far. I’m heading out next week to, I think, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin to do a couple more events, going to help them candidates. By the way, not just US senate races, we got to win those and congressional races. But we’re going to go help candidates to run for state legislator and sheriff’s offices.
Our Local Offices
These things really matter to our local communities. And for local communities have a right, our churches, our faith institutions will be strong. We’re going to try and make sure that we have the resources we need to proclaim His Word and to work really, really hard to make sure that good conservative people get elected all across America.
So good. Well, brother, we appreciate you. God bless you for your service throughout your life, but especially right now the nation needs you and needs that encouraging word, and sound policy, sound perspective on our nation and our role in the world. Really appreciate your time today, Mr. Secretary. Stay with us, folks, we’ll be right back on WallBuilders Live.
The AMERICAN STORY
Hey, guys, we want to let you know about a new resource we have here at WallBuilders called The American Story. For years, people have been asking us to do a history book, and we finally done it. We start with Christopher Columbus and go roughly through Abraham Lincoln.
And one of the things that that so often we hear today are about the imperfections of America, or how so many people in America that used to be celebrated or honored really aren’t good or honorable people.
One of the things we acknowledge quickly in the book is that the entire world is full of people who are sinful and need a savior, because the Bible even tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And yet what we see through history, and certainly is evident in America is how a perfect God uses imperfect people and does great things through them.
The story of America is not the story of perfect people. But you see time and time again how God got involved in the process and use these imperfect people to do great things that impacted the entire world from America. To find out more, go to wallbuilders.com and check out The American Story.
We’re back here on WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. And thanks again to former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo for joining us today.
David, and Tim, really cool interview and just good perspective. Can you imagine, I mean, this guy has been in the most high level meetings possible, and accomplished more as a Secretary of State than any that I can think of at least in my lifetime, or at least in my adult lifetime that I followed this.
So kind of cool to see that happen? But man, it is frustrating to see it be dismantled in many ways. But he said, look, some of this has kind of taken on a life of its own. That was cool too.
The Abraham Accords
It was. And I was really struck with how he took some really complicated issues, and really kind of reduced into some pretty cool sound bites. I mean, just when he was talking to Middle East and he just made the observation that when the United States and Israel are on the same page, the Middle East is so much more peaceful in every way. And I thought, you know, that’s true.
I mean, go back for decades. And when we’ve had an administration that liked Israel, the whole Middle East benefited from that. And so I was thinking about that.
And even the point that he made about how that well, now you got all these countries because of the Abraham Accord that like Israel, and so regardless what happens with Biden, Dubai is got a relationship with Israel, they’re flying planes, and they have citizens sharing stuff, and so now they’re friends. And I thought, that’s really profound stuff.
And then he got into religious liberty, and talking about the stuff across the world. And I thought another really profound point was when you have a nation that really likes religious liberty, they really like America as well. And nations that don’t like religious liberty are not allies of America. And so, another really good bellwether to be able to tell something pretty strong there.
And then on top of that, I just love the fact that he’s now going after candidates and even not just US Senate candidates, but all the way down to local candidates. I mean, that’s the one thing I’ve seen with a lot of the Trump officials. Out of the administration now is they’re spending a lot of time trying to build a firm team, trying to get good people in office, because what they saw in DC, they just kept hitting logjam after logjam with people who didn’t have the right philosophy. And so, going out there to work on getting good constitutional philosophy, that’s good stuff.
A Great Leader
And dad, I think is not only really cool that he’s working now to help get more good people involved in the process. But even as he mentioned, working with Sam Brownback, former governor of Kansas, what they did to promote religious liberty, it’s very unique. And unfortunately, it’s a little rare these days to have people that have that kind of value system.
And those kind of leadership positions that are doing something that’s making that much of a difference around the world. But he’s such a good example of a great kind of leader we had, really going back to those core biblical principles, constitutional values of the Founding Fathers that you see lived out in real time.
National Security, Woke Corporations, And America’s Future – With Mike Pompeo
And it’s again, one of the reasons that we were impressed with President Trump in a lot of regards with who he surrounded himself with in many areas, with some of the cabinet picks, but surrounding himself with some of these great Christian men. And Mike Pompeo was certainly one of those guys.
And I’d loved his attitude to guys he had that that Ronald Reagan, happy warrior quote, just kind of lived it out. I mean, especially after all that they did, and seeing what this administration has done, and yet now, you know, that optimistic attitude that, hey, people are waking up, there’s a revival going on in our country. And so, really encouraging to hear those things.
Folks, if you want to be a part of that, if you want to help be a catalyst in your community, go to wallbuilders.com today, get some materials, and get some people together, and start teaching the truth about our history and what we can do as citizens to restore our constitutional republic. Thanks so much for listening today. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.