Pastors Rally To Fight Judicial Tyranny That Is Against Pro-Life: Pastors all across Ohio are very upset about a judge who has overturned a Pro-Life law that overwhelmingly passed in the legislature. These pastors are now raising their voices and standing up against this tyranny. Tune in now to learn more!

Air Date: 07/02/2018

Guest: Pastor J.C. Church

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! We”€™re talking about today”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture. Always from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and our founder at WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker and pastor, he”€™s president of WallBuilders. And my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas legislator.

You can find out more about us and the program at two websites. First one is WallBuildersLive.com, our radio site. And then at WallBuilders.com, that’s our main website. By the way, that word “€œWallBuilders”€ comes from that scripture in Nehemiah that says, “€œArise and rebuild the walls that we may no longer be a reproach.”€ In many ways in our nation the foundations have been destroyed, or at least there’s a crack in the foundation, from the attempts over the years to destroy it. And it’s our job as citizens to rebuild that foundation. That’s what we do here at WallBuilders, so check out some of those programs that WallBuildersLive.com and also some of the tools we have for you at WallBuilders.com.

Later in the program J.C. Church, a pastor from Ohio will be with us. And David, Tim, it looks like pastors in Ohio are very upset about a judge there. One judge, one individual, overturning the entire legislature of the state of Ohio who had passed a pro-life law saying that you cannot selectively have an abortion because a child has Down Syndrome.

This is a law that overwhelmingly passed in the legislature and these pastors are saying “€œWait a minute, how does one judge overturn what our legislature, the people”€™s representatives, said should be the law of our state and that we want to be the law of our state?”€

Well, how many judges is it supposed to take to overturn a law?

Rick:

Hey, this sounds like the beginning of a good joke.

Tim:

Or a bad one.

Rick:

Or a bad one.

Elections for Judges

Tim:

Yes. So, honestly though if we look at the way courts are run today–

Rick:

Yeah.

Tim:

–to me this is not a surprise. It’s always sad, it’s always a disappointment. But when when you disregard the Constitution, when you throw away the way the process is supposed to work, this is the reality. Now, this is why also it would be great if we had elections for judges to hold them accountable and not every state does. But hopefully more states will move that direction. Because certainly this judge has no business being there, doesn’t understand what the Constitution is. But for a lot of judges and lawyers today they don’t even go to the Constitution. And if you don’t go to the Constitution why do we think that this is bad behavior?

David:

I love the fact, Tim, that you brought up the thing of we need to elect these judges. And when you look at judicial systems across the 50 states, about half of them elect judges and about half of them don’t elect judges.

I was testifying in a state legislature not long ago about judicial elections. It’s a state that does not elect judges. They were looking at whether to do so. There’s a couple of plans in most states that don’t elect judges called the Missouri Plan, or the Tennessee Plan. Where that what happens is instead of electing judges, you have the state bar association or some panel of unelected attorneys go through and pick the three folks they think would be a great Supreme Court justice. They give that list to the governor and the governor chooses from that list and that’s who goes on the court.

Now, wait a minute, the elected people don’t get a choice in this and it”€™s the unelected people, the elites, the bar association, that gets the choice. And oftentimes, not even the legislature gets to ratify the choice, so there’s no debate on it. So, you’re looking at a system where the people don’t have any input, there’s no accountability.

What”€™s the Other Argument?

David:

Now, about half the states do have judicial elections. And it is striking that in states that have judicial elections you’re less likely to find judicial activism. Or when it does occur, it doesn’t last as long because usually the judge doesn’t come back for another election. But in states where you appoint your judges they then have retention elections and a retention election is like a lifetime appointment. I think the numbers are over ninety eight percent of judges who are in retention elections win their elections because nobody is there to point out the goofy decisions. They don’t have an opponent. And that’s the cool part about having an opponent is you can say, “€œDo you realize what he did in this decision? “€œOh, I forgot about that. Five years ago. Oh, that was goofy.”€ And there’s nobody to make that kind of point.

So, Rick, you were in the legislature, you remember how this stuff goes. What are the arguments that’s offered by the other side about why you should not elect your judges?

Rick:

They usually say because people don’t pay attention to judicial races, nobody knows who to vote for in those judicial races. Which is– that’s the fault of us not paying attention or,  as candidates, not raising enough money to get the word out.

David:

Well, I would argue that they don’t know who they’re voting for in state rep races, or in city council races–

Rick:

Exactly right.

David:

— or in mayor’s races, or anything else, so why don’t we do that for all of them?

Rick:

And should you take away a right and an opportunity to be involved, and get informed, and make a difference, just because others maybe haven’t exercised that right?

They Are Neutral?

Tim:

I think some of the arguments you hear, too, are they’re going to spend their time campaigning, and they need to focus on their job, and it makes it political, and it shouldn’t be political. And I think pretty much the arguments you hear can all be disregarded with common sense and logic and why we elect other individuals that have representative jobs and fulfill their duties. But I think it’s the same argument we hear across the board.

David:

Well, I understand the argument that electing judges would make them too political and that if you don’t elect them they’re not as political. Because when you look at Ginsburg and when you look at Kennedy, they’re certainly not political there on the Supreme Court. They have no political views, they don’t have any kind of agendas they follow–

Rick:

Right.

David:

–they”€™re neutral.

Rick:

Yeah, I think maybe a little sarcasm there.

David:

Oh, yeah. I think maybe a whole lot. See, and as we go to break let me just throw out a quote on this because Thomas Jefferson, long time ago, put his finger on how ridiculous that argument is. You’re saying that as long as you don’t have to face election and be accountable you will not become political. You only become political when you face an election. So, concerning judges, listen to what Thomas Jefferson said.

They Are Humans

David:

He says, “€œOur judges are as honest as other men and not more so. They have, with others, the same passions for party, and for power, and for the privilege of their position. But their power is the more dangerous as they are not responsible as the other officials are to the elective control.”€ So, Jefferson says, “€œWhat makes you think judges are not human? What makes you think that they’re more honest than other people and that they don’t have the same passion for party, and for power, and for their position and office?”€ They’re humans.

And so that’s why elected judges are so much better because they are so much more accountable. Because they know if they make a stupid decision and cram something down the people’s throat, or completely reversed the will of the state, they’re not going to be back for another term. And they shouldn’t be because government is supposed to be about the consent of the governed, not the consent of the governors who govern those, that’s just not it.

So, this deal with this one judge striking down a law, popular law, of the legislature, that’s never the way it was intended to be even though voices today say that”€™s the way should be.

Rick:

Let’s take a quick break, guys. When we come back, J.C. Church will be with us, a pastor in Ohio dealing with this on the ground right there in that state. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

Moment From American History

This is Tim Barton with another moment from American history. As the American War for Independence began, the president of Yale was the Reverend Naphtali Daggett. When New Haven, the home of Yale, came under attack about a hundred citizens rushed out to meet the British.

The Reverend Daggett galloped by them on horseback, his clearable robes flowing behind him in the wind. He took up a solitary position atop a hill. The 2,500 British soon put the townsfolk to flight but the Reverend Daggett continued to stand alone firing down on the advancing troops.

A British officer confronted him, “€œWhat are you doing there you old fool? If I let you go, will you ever fire again on the troops of his majesty?”€ Nothing more likely was the preacher’s reply. America’s early pastors personally confronted danger and courageously led their communities.

For more information on Pastor Daggett and other colonial Patriots, go to WallBuilders.com.

Why Have a Legislature if This is What Happens?!

Rick:

Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Pastor J.C. Church is with us from the great state of Ohio. Pastor Church, thanks for your time.

Pastor J.C. Church:

Hey, it is good to be with you guys again.

Rick:

Okay, how much of a hard time do you get with your last name being “€œChurch”€ and being a pastor? I’m just wondering.

Pastor J.C. Church:

It’s funny you say that, I make a joke sometimes. But it is my actual name, it says on my birth certificate “€œJ.C. Church”€. But if I had a dollar for every time that”€™s come up I could build a building.

Rick:

I figured that, I figured that. Well, you’re the perfect guy to be leading this effort in Ohio. I understand you guys had a great pro-life law passed there, signed by the governor and one federal judge, I didn’t realize this was a former Planned Parenthood person that’s on the federal bench now, throws out the law – one judge. I thought your line was perfect,  “€œWhy have a legislature if one judge can throw these things out?”€

Pastor J.C. Church:

Absolutely. It’s absolutely disappointing and shocking. Our governor did sign the Non-Discrimination Act outlawing selective abortions performed on children diagnosed with Down Syndrome, and that’s correct.

U.S. District Court Judge Timothy Black who was the director and president of Planned Parenthood in Cincinnati, who was appointed by Barack Obama, is the one that issued an injunction and basically stopped the voice of 84 legislators who made this happen.

Pastors For Ending Judicial Tyranny

Rick:

What you guys have come together as pastors saying you want an end to what you’re calling “€œjudicial tyranny”€. And that’s exactly what it is. When one judge can say,  regardless of what the people want, regardless of what the legislature says they want, “€œI’m, with my black robe, going to tell everybody what to do.”€ What are you guys asking for to reverse this?

Pastor J.C. Church:

Well, we’ve sent a letter to our Ohio congressman and state legislators asking for them to step in and intervene on that. And the reason is because we believe there’s a constitutional precedent for our legislators to stop this judicial tyranny. We the people are governed by our consent, created states, the states in turn through a constitutional convention created the Constitution, the Constitution created the federal government, that includes the Supreme Court and inferior federal courts. And we believe therefore the Supreme Court and the federal courts are subservient to the Constitution.

And the Constitution is very interesting when we begin having judicial overreach like we have in unprecedented measures across the land. In Article 3 Section 1 says that the Constitution states supreme court judges and inferior federal court judges do not serve for life, but rather, “€œduring good behavior”€.

Rick:

That”€™s right.

Pastor J.C. Church:

It also says from time to time as Congress ordains and establishes.

So, our concern is that– a lot of folks don’t know we had no nationwide injunctions by an inferior federal court the first hundred seventy five years of our republic. We had 22 nationwide injunctions ordering the entire federal government to not enforce executive branch policy in the first year of President Trump”€™s presidency alone.

A Reversal of Power

Rick:

Wow. Wow. Yeah. What a reversal of where the power should be either with the people’s representatives in the legislature or the people’s representative in terms of the executive branch with the president. Or are these unelected, unaccountable, judges now making law or in this case stopping law that’s been passed by the people’s representatives? And not the design of the founders, right. This was– the founders thought the judiciary would be the weakest branch. And yet here it is overruling the others constantly.

Pastor J.C. Church:

Well, because we’re living in a new day where there’s almost a mindset that that’s what the judiciary does. But the reality with our three branches, our founders were ingenious in checks and balances going both ways. That actually our legislators have power to hold the judicial overreach in check if we could have men and women of bold, great, courage to do so. And I want our listeners today to really consider.

Let me tell you another quick story that should get the attention of everyone in a judicial overreach in Ohio. We have a case just a few months old in Cincinnati, Ohio where a 17 year old went to their parents who wanted to identify as a male and wanted to transition and start hormone therapy. And the parents said, “€œno”€. Judge * had this child removed from parental care, this minor was removed–

Rick:

Wow.

Pastor J.C. Church:

–given to the grandparents, granted custody to the grandparents, who are now taking the child for hormone therapy. And here’s the part that’s interesting. This judge in Cincinnati, and I quote, has asked the state legislators to craft legislation to give judicial courts quote unquote “€œframework to evaluate minor rights to gender therapy”€.

If We Don”€™t Want a Dictatorship

Pastor J.C. Church:

So, what I’m saying, folks better wake up that we’re heading and laying the groundwork for a dictatorship if we do not hold the judiciary in check and help them understand that they are unelected officials who interpret the law given to you by the legislative branch. When our voice through our representatives who pass laws we want get overridden by one person, why have a legislative branch?

Rick:

J.C., I got to ask you, man, as a pastor, you obviously are studying this issue, you’re paying attention to this issue, you’re rallying folks to this issue. This is how pastors acted in the founding era. The Black Robe Regiment was involved in what was happening with their government. Do you get any pushback as a pastor out there doing this now? Because, as you said earlier, people today tend to think the court’s supposed to do these things. In the same way, people tend to think pastors aren’t supposed to do these kind of things and be involved. So, how much pushback do you get?

Pastor J.C. Church:

We do experience some pushback and I think the reason for that is that the moral issues have been hijacked so much politically that we have a generation who think they are political when in fact they are moral.

Rick:

That’s right.

Pastor J.C. Church:

When I talk to the pastors I will tell the quick story of Esther. Think of this for a moment – if all Esther would have done was stay in the building and preach, pray, and fast, pray and fast, fast and pray, every Jew would have died. She literally had to be a voice, a light, that would confront the darkness and expose the evil plan of Haman. She had to speak truth to power.

So, I will tell you this, there are issues like this that are causing pastors to awaken. Tell me what issue could cause 106 pastors from 106 different congregations in north central Ohio to reach across denominational parking lots, join arms together, and say, “€œThis must stop.”€ And that’s exactly what’s happening here in Ohio.

A Dream Minus A Plan

Rick:

How can we, J.C., follow you guys and what you’re doing? I think pastors across the country hopefully will be inspired by this and say, “€œI need to be doing this in my community.”€

Pastor J.C. Church:

Well, a dream minus a plan is a fantasy, so we need a plan. If we live in fantasy land, we don’t have a plan. So, I tell pastors, somebody in their community needs to sound the alarm which creates an awakening, then there’s an alignment. Then we put an action plan together. We must think nationally and not locally. So, I would encourage pastors to pray, and to begin to participate, and wake up, and be concerned about these issues, and be the Black Robed Regiment of today, a band of Bonhoeffer’s, a voice that speaks up to be heard, stands to be seen, and that we speak the truth with grace before– We better get proactive and not reactive before we’re completely inactive.

Rick:

Amen, amen. While I”€™ve got you, man, how did the rally go– I guess it”€™s just been about a week or so ago that you guys had at the Capitol? How’d that go, Ohio 714?

Pastor J.C. Church:

Ohio 714 was amazing. It”€™s the fifth year we’ve done it since we started it. We had that atrium jammed to capacity, standing room only. We bring in evangelical state leaders and we spend 90 minutes praying targeted prayers in the Capitol. Legislators came down. Legislators let us lay hands on them and pray over them for wisdom and discernment. And it is an example of the body of Christ coming together to pray and make our presence felt at the state capitol. It was a huge, huge, success and something we do every year.

Rick:

Love it, love it, love it. Good stuff. J.C., God bless you guys, man. Keep up the great work and let’s get some other pastors doing the exact same thing across the country, we can turn this thing around.

Pastor J.C. Church:

I believe it, man. It”€™s our Cyrus moment to awaken. And I appreciate what you all do, and David, he”€™s a dear friend, and we love WallBuilders. And anything we can do to help, me and other pastors, we”€™re here my friend.

Rick:

That”€™s Pastor J.C Church, he’s the lead pastor of Victory and Truth Ministries up in Ohio. We”€™ll have links to their website today as well. Pastor, we’ll get you back on again soon.

Pastor J.C. Church:

Any time, my friend. God bless you all.

Rick:

Stay with us, folks. We’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Pastors Only Briefing Trip

Tim:

Hi, this is Tim Barton with WallBuilders and I want to encourage all the pastors out there with a unique opportunity that we’re presenting it WallBuilders. We’re doing a special tour just for pastors that you can come and learn more about the spiritual heritage of our nation. Not just seeing the sights but understanding the significance of what they are and what they represent.

We get to go to the Capitol at night.  And we get to see the spiritual heritage of our Founding Fathers, of who we are as a nation, where we came from. We bring in congressman that will tell you about current legislation, about our religious liberties  and freedom, and what’s going on in Washington, D.C.

If you’re a pastor or if you want to recommend your pastor for this trip, you can go to our website at www.WallBuilders.com. And there’s a link that’s for scheduling.  If you click on that link there’s a section for pastor”€™s briefing. There’s more information about the dates, when it’s going, and how it’s going to happen. If you want to know more about our nation, our religious liberties, our freedom, our spiritual heritage, this is a trip you want to be a part of.

Rick:

Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Thanks to Pastor J.C. Church for joining us. Back with David and Tim Barton now.

And, guys, it comes back to what you were saying earlier, David, or maybe it was Tim,  this idea of we think judges are somehow so much better. Jefferson said these are normal people just like us. Well, this judge obviously had a certain political bias if he was running a Planned Parenthood clinic before becoming a judge.

Why Should it Matter?

David:

Well, in the old days you would have said he should have recused himself, but that’s not where we are anymore because every human being has a position on virtually every issue. And so to recuse yourself is saying you’re completely neutral on this issue, you have no position. In most cases that’s simply not the way it is. Most judges are going to have opinions, but why should the opinion of a judge matter more than the opinion of the legislature? Why should the opinion of a judge matter more than the opinion of the governor? Why should the opinion of a judge matter more than the opinion of the people themselves. And it shouldn’t.

And let me go to another Jefferson quote because we talked about how Jefferson said, “€œLook, our judges are just like other people. They have the same bias as other people do.”€ But suddenly we say, “€œNo, no, no, if they are a judge they don’t have that bias and they’re the ones that are capable of determining whether this law is constitutional.”€ Listen to Jefferson, he said, “€œTo consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions is a very dangerous doctrine. It’s one that would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal.”€

* right, the Constitution did not give judges the final word. And if they get the final word we’re no longer a republican form of Government, small “€œr”€, we’re now a oligarchy. Which means we’re under a despotism because we don’t have any ability to elect or unelect these guys, we don’t have any way to make them accountable. Jefferson called this years ago and we’ve let attorneys, and law school professors, and academics, and others, tell us, “€œNo, no, no, this is the way the judges are supposed to work. They make the laws and they know what’s constitutional.”€

You know what? Back in the old school days where the founding fathers when they were teaching the Constitution at the elementary level, an elementary student would know more about the Constitution than this judge did.

Rick:

Yeah, I don’t think this guy was put on the bench for his judicial qualifications. Clearly it was an Obama– he shared Obama’s philosophy on abortion and wanting more of it and that’s why he got this appointment. It’s a shame, but it tells me elections have consequences. In this case the presidential election has huge consequences because of all those appointments on the federal bench.

Stay with us, folks. We’ll be right back on WallBuilders Live.

Leadership Training Program

Rick:

Hey, friends! We’ve got a great program to share with you today. It”€™s the WallBuilders Leadership Training Program and it’s an opportunity for 18 to 25 year olds to come spend two weeks diving into the original documents we’re always talking about here on WallBuilders Live.

Tim, you’ve already been doing this a couple of summers and seen the results of young people coming to this program. We’re going to see more of them coming this year.

Tim:

Yeah, Rick, it”€™s something that”€™s been cool to see the transformation with young people coming in. The emphasis, for us, largely is a pursuit of truth. We have a culture that doesn’t know what truth is. We don’t know what biblical truth is, or constitutional truth, or the American heritage that we have. And so we really dive into original documents and say, “€œWell, what did they actually write? What did they actually do? Not just what did somebody say, what is actually true, and the truth is what’s transformational.

David:

Yeah, guys. This really is a remarkable opportunity. And for those who want to spend time with us and spend time in the original documents, this is a great program. So, if you’re from 18 to 25, or you know someone who’s 18 to 25, send them to sign up for one of our three sessions this summer at WallBuilders.com/leadershiptraining.

Where Does the Push Back Need to Come From?

Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. David, Tim, so if the judges are taking that much ground and making law like that, don’t we have to push back from both the other two branches and from the state level as well?

David:

Well, that’s what the Federalist Papers said. Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist Papers said that the Constitution is given to each branch. Constitutional tools of self defense against the other ones. So, the legislature can–

And I love the fact that J.C., here he is as a pastor, and by the way, can I point out that J.C. as a pastor did a better and more articulate job of setting forth proper constitutional role of judges than most attorneys, judges, or legislators, do. There’s a pastor who got it right from original intent standpoint

Rick:

That”€™s right.

Tim:

Yeah, and to that end, Rick, you commented on him being one of those Black Robed Regiment kind of pastors. That’s exactly what he sounds like as he’s doing this. Is he”€™s someone saying, “€œHey, let’s bring some moral clarity to an issue with constitutional perspective.”€ Where the Black Robed Regiment pastors were so educated, they were so learned, they knew the Constitution, they knew law, they knew government, they knew what was right and what was wrong, and what should and shouldn’t be done. And he’s bringing clarity to something even from a constitutional perspective what should be done.

But, Dad, to your point from Hamilton, one of the tools Hamilton said that should be used in the Constitution was this idea of impeachment. Which I think you were saying is that’s why he’s appealing to the state legislature to try to get some movement in Congress. Which, at this point, I can’t recall at all when the last time a federal judge was impeached.

Maybe This Isn”€™t Far Fetched

David:

Actually it was not long ago, just a couple of years ago. There’s been, I think, three impeached in the last 10 years. So, Congress has actually gotten rid of some.

Tim:

So, there’s some–

Rick:

That”€™s impressive.

Tim:

–a relatively recent precedent. So, maybe this isn’t farfetched. And for one judge to overturn what the entire state assembly has come together to do does seem ridiculous. So, maybe this is grounds that somebody steps in on this or maybe it’s on appeal if something else happens. But I’m glad to see J.C. is not letting this go and that he’s leading the fight to try to change and correct this.

David:

And he’s leading the fight from a moral perspective, a biblical moral perspective, and from a constitutional perspective. It is so good to see so many other pastors joining him in this. That’s a good news in itself the fact that so many pastors are taking the lead on this issue in the governmental arena. This is great news.

Rick:

Special thanks to Pastor J.C. Church for joining us today. And we certainly appreciate you listening today. Be sure to visit both of our websites – WallBuildersLive.com for the radio program and sharing the radio program with your friends and family and folks out there on social media. And then also WallBuilders.com where you can get a lot of great tools for yourself and your family to equip, and inspire, and educate, those around you to be better citizens and help us restore this constitutional republic.

Pastors Rally To Fight Judicial Tyranny That Is Against Pro-Life

Rick:

You can also help us spread this program and the Ministry of WallBuilders all across the country by coming alongside us there at WallBuilders.com. You can make a one time contribution or a monthly contribution. Helps us to do not only the radio program, but our youth leadership programs, the pastor’s briefings, and all the other things that we do – our legislators trainings, all the things we’re doing out there to restore America’s foundation.

Thanks so much for listening to WallBuilders Live.