Values Voter Summit- Planned Parenthood Court Case Update: We had the privilege of getting some amazing interviews at the Values Voter Summit. In this episode, we are interviewing Mat Staver with Liberty Counsel. He will be updating us on the Planned Parenthood court case where leaked footage came out of them selling baby parts. Tune in now to learn more!

Air Date: 11/04/2019

Guest: Mat Staver

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we’re talking about today’s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture. All these different areas always from a biblical historical and constitutional perspective. 

We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker and President of WallBuilders, and my name is Rick Green. I’m a former Texas state legislator. 

We’re Headed Out To Washington, D.C.

You can find out more about all three of us at Wallbuilderslive.com. Our perspective is the same – constitutional historical biblical, but we’re changing our location. We are headed out to Washington, D.C. again. 

This time we’re going to have an interview with Matt Staver. We’re going to be talking about some of the things that are happening all the way across to the other side of the country but again from that perspective.

We’ll be at the Values Voter Summit, getting the chance to share with some great leaders across the country. David, Tim, of course, Matt is one of the most important legal minds in the country and has been leading through the courtroom, training lawyers when he was over at Liberty law a while back. Liberty Counsel has some of the most important cases in the country before the U.S. Supreme Court. But now he’s got this went out in California.

Planned Parenthood Selling Baby Parts Illegally

David:

Yeah, he’s got this one out in California. It really goes back to what we saw three or four years ago in the federal government when the undercover videos came out of Planned Parenthood selling baby parts, which is illegal under federal law.

Such people like Congresswoman Diane Black and Congresswoman Marsha Blackburn and others were in the special committee. They investigated that. They came out with several criminal referrals because of what Planned Parenthood is doing. 

They’re Going After The Two People Who Made The Videos

It is really kind of outed Planned Parenthood. It made so many people go oh my gosh, I can’t believe they said that, did that. I didn’t know what Planned Parenthood was.

Well, out in California rather than going after Planned Parenthood, who broke federal law. They’re going after the two people who made the videos. 

They’re trying to convict them for having done undercover whistleblower kind of work. Matt is out in California with that trial. I’ve been watching, and a lot of people have. 

It’s amazing what is coming out in that trial. It’s the kind of stuff that looks like it’s out of a fiction book, and if it were fiction, we would probably say it’s bad fiction. That wouldn’t really happen in real life. Oh my gosh, what’s happening to that courtroom is amazing. And so Matt’s going to update us on what’s happening with that trial.

This Will Be Some Graphic Details In This Interview

Tim:

It’s worth noting as well that there is some graphic detail of what is happening around this case because it is dealing with abortion, with what Planned Parenthood did, as was mentioned, selling baby body parts. But there are some descriptions of this courtroom drama of what the judge is and isn’t allowing. 

Some of it is on video, but there are some descriptions from Planned Parenthood individuals of what they are doing in these abortion procedures to harvest some of these organs off of these little babies. 

It is pretty graphic. So just for listeners, be aware we want to be a family-friendly program. This one might be a little tough for young ears to hear some of what’s happening, and certainly, for the rest of us, it’s tough as well. 

It infuriates me from hearing some of this stuff. It makes me want to have a little righteous indignation and go find some of these people and deal with them and more of an Old Testament fashioned but nonetheless very significant information –

David:

Which we’re not going to do, but the inclination is there for sure.

Rick:

Right. And that just points out why it’s so important to expose what they’re doing. Why these filmmakers were so courageous in what they did to expose the evil that’s taking place. People need to know about it, and we need to put an end to it.

It’s just amazing that the legal tables were turned on the good guys that had exposed this instead of on the people that were perpetrating the evil. 

Stay with us, folks. We’re headed to D.C. We’re gonna be talking to Matt Staver when we come back from the break. At the Values Voter Summit, you’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

America’s Hidden History

Hi, this is David Barton. And, this is Tim Barton, and we want to let you know about a series that’s happening right now on TBN on Thursday night. TBN is the Trinity Broadcasting Network. Every Thursday night, there’s a series that we’ve filmed called America’s Hidden History. And, this season is called “America’s Hidden Heroes.” The reason is, we highlight heroes from American history. For years we’ve been focusing on the forgotten history and heroes of the nation.

And now, we have a TV show just highlighting some of those heroes.

These are inspiring stories about some of the greatest people maybe you’ve never heard about. We go on location to the sites and show you where the events happened. It’s the stories of folks like Bronco Charlie, Stagecoach Mary, Jedediah Smith, Robert Smalls, and so many inspiring folks.

Now, this happens every Thursday night, and the time is gonna be different based on where you live. Either way, we think this is something that will so encourage and inspire you in learning some of these great stories from America’s Hidden History.

Values Voter Summit With Matt Staver

Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. We are at Values Voter Summit, and this is so cool we’ve had Matt Staver on.

I don’t know Matt, fifty times? So many times, I feel like it’s WallBuilders Live with David Barton and Matt Staver sometimes. Now we love having you on, but it’s always been over-the-air. We’re actually going to interview you in person.

Matt:

 To see you both in person is amazing. 

David:

It may be scary. Actually, we have a face for radio.

Rick:

Thanks for taking the time. Values Voter Summit, it’s a great chance to meet with activists from all over the country that are going back home, and hopefully implementing the things that we talk about on-the-air all the time. But it’s a great way to see that we’re not alone and that there are people all over the country that do want to return these values in our nation.

We Are Not Alone

Matt:

It really is good. I was just walking back to my hotel room and ran into someone who recently was a member of the state legislature in Minnesota. Just to see where God is leading this individual now and so many people from around the country. It’s really good to see all of these individuals have the same values that we do, and are working just as hard as we are. We’re not alone. They’re out there really making a difference in the country.

Rick:

It’s good stuff. We’re talking about making a difference. Liberty Counsel (has been) critical in the battleground out there. The cases that you’ve had some of them were great victories. Many of the other cases that you had had an impact not just in that area where that case came from but the entire nation.

So we have you on often talking about those specific cases. 

Anything right now that’s a hot topic for you and what you guys are in the middle of?

Sandra Merritt-David Daleiden Case

Matt:

The main thing that we’re in the middle of, we’ve got a bunch of things, but the one matter that you do not see in any of the main media is the Sandra Merritt-David Daleiden case with regards to Planned Parenthood. We just finished a three-week preliminary criminal trial. 

Rick:

These were the guys that did the videos, right?

Matt: 

That’s right. These are the undercover videos, and then we are now –

David:

By the way, undercover Planned Parenthood videos, this is what got started several years ago. 

Matt:

That’s right. It’s been going on for years. 

There Were Exceptions To The Law

What happened is they, Sandra and David, they researched the laws in California and other places where they did the recordings. In places where you needed two-party consent, like in California, needed both people to consent. 

There are exceptions. The two exceptions that really apply in this case are number one if the conversation is not confidential. Obviously, if you’re in public places like a restaurant and waiters are coming, and while the waiters are there, you’re having a conversation. You don’t stop your conversation. Then you don’t expect that to be confidential. 

Or if you’re in an elevator and a third party is there, and you’re carrying on a conversation. If you wanted to be confidential, you just simply stop talking. And so they made very intentional acts to make sure all of these recordings were in a place that was public and that the meetings were not confidential. 

In fact, they even turned down opportunities to go into various places within Planned Parenthood, where they wanted to have maybe a private meeting in a room, and they only wanted to have meetings in public places at restaurants or at some of these convention centers.

Rick:

They knew the exceptions, and they purposefully followed the law.

If The Act Is Illegal, You Can Record It

Matt:

And they also knew the other exception: that is that there is an exception to the two-party recording not only if it’s not confidential, which these were not confidential, but they also have a second exception. That is if you suspect that the person that you’re recording is engaging in or intending to engage in an illegal act, then you can record 

Rick:

Like selling body parts?

Matt:

Like selling body parts.

So here’s a situation that happened in the three-week preliminary criminal case. In California, they go through a preliminary hearing to see if they’re going to go through a full-blown jury trial, and this permanent hearing is already gone three weeks. We’re waiting on a ruling to see whether the judge is going to then send it later on to a jury, and we start all over again. 

The Attorney-General’s Office Threatened The Expert

On the last day of the criminal case, one of our witnesses is an expert. This expert is someone who has a PR agency from Stanford University, and she specializes in stem cell research, and she does research on mice. 

Just before she was ready to testify, the Attorney-General’s office threatened that if you testify, we’re going to indict you criminally. Now, for what?

Well, saying you conspired with David Daleiden and Sandra Merritt. Wow. And obviously, this expert didn’t. 

What happened is David Daleiden to find out what was going on to form the basis for Planned Parenthood’s illegal activity, he consulted with an expert. 

She Testified

Here’s what the experts said. The experts thought about it and said I’m going to testify anyway, and so good for the expert. She’s a well-known expert. So she testified. She’s at the lab. One day, she has different mice that she has to use for research, and under the ethical and other legal rules, you can not cause pain to that mouse. If you do, you’ll have ethical violations, criminal violations. You have penalties. You’ll be eliminated as a researcher. You have to treat the mouse humanely. And so one day a baby still beating, arrives at the research facility and Stanford University is one of the procures of some of these body parts. 

The Beating Heart Was Taken Out While The Baby Was Still Alive

So this baby’s heart is still beating. It’s in a little thing where the baby’s heart is still beating. She, based on her expertise, realized for that heart to continue to beat still like; that it had to have been removed while it was still beating. While that baby was still alive, and they kept the heart beating so that it would continue to beat while it arrives at the research facility. And so that’s what her testimony was. 

When this small baby’s heart arrived beating, she was shocked. She knew that in order for that to happen, it had to have been extracted from a baby who was still alive when the heart was removed. And so her testimony was that. 

Organ Procurement Companies

Not only that, but there are more laws protecting mice and no laws protecting babies. And so what we also did is put together with other information from the providers. 

There’s Planned Parenthood provides the body parts. They get order forms from groups like Stem Express. Stem Express as an organ procurement company. 

On Stem Express’s website, they used to have dropdown screens. Just like you would select a pair of shoes, David. 

I want a size ten and a half in brown. I want this particular style. How much is it going to cost for that particular style? And so forth. And then you order it. 

You Could Order Different Body Parts Online

So on Stem Express’ website, it would have different body parts. It might be a brain intact, heart, kidney, whatever it might be. Certain size, and how big it needs to be. Certain gestation from the moment of conception, and then you would get the ultimate price. Some of those were being sold for $17,000. 

Places like Stanford University would go to the website. They would want this particular body part. Then Stem Express would go to Planned Parenthood, and they would give them an order form. This is what we need for today. 

They Would Select These Women And Babies To Fulfill The Order

And when these women were coming in, they would select these women and the babies to fulfill the order that they got from these organ procurement companies. Some of them, they wanted intact brains. 

Less Crunchy Abortion Procedure

In one of the situations, one of the people testified that a baby was brought in, and the heart was still beating. She was ordered to split the baby’s face in half; she couldn’t do it. The other person did it. Cut the baby’s face in half while it’s still alive so that they could then go in and extract an entire, complete brain because that was part of the order form.

They also talked about, and the testimony showed, the doctor at one of the Planned Parenthood doctors performing a “less crunchy abortion procedure” so that they could extract intact body parts. They got more profit for it. 

Induced Tumultuous Labor

What they also did was they induced some of these women into what they called tumultuous labor. That’s their words. Tumultuous labor, meaning very difficult labor because they’re extracting the baby intact. 

Some of those are alive. Why? Because then they would harvest different parts of the baby to fulfill the order from groups like Stem Express that would then sell them on the open market

Rick:

Man, this is not something happen in some foreign country somewhere, not in some back third; this is in America.

This Is In America

Matt:

This is in America. Being done by Planned Parenthood, who politicians get up and defend and praise and give money to.

Matt:

And that’s why the Attorney-General of California did this unprecedented 15 criminal indictment against David and Sandra to silence them. 

He’s a supporter of Planned Parenthood. He was preceded by Kamala Harris. Kamala Harris, of course, is the U.S. senator running for President. She started this whole investigation. 

The Case Should Have Been Dismissed

Now we’re waiting on the ruling on that. Whether the judge is going to allow this thing to go to a full-blown trial.

David:

 Did you get a read on what you think?

Matt:

We don’t know. I mean we really don’t know 

Rick:

What you think the court will do?

David:

Yeah, could you tell if the judge reacted visibly to things?

Matt:

You can’t really tell which way the judge is going to rule. Frankly, the case should have been dismissed at the time when we asked for summary judgment because they don’t have any of the facts. 

Los Angeles Times Editorial Board Blasted The Attorney-General

In fact, even the Los Angeles Times editorial board came out with an article that blasted the Attorney-General for these indictments because of the impact that will have on journalism. 

So it should have been dismissed a long time ago. We’ll just have to wait and see. 

But where we are now is another story.

We’re in the middle of a three-week trial that just recently began. Jury selection has taken place. Sandra has testified as the first witness called by Planned Parenthood.

This is Planned Parenthood Suing The Two Producers

This is a three-week civil trial, and you have to have a unanimous jury of 12 people. So we’re praying for at least one of those jurors to not go along with the Planned Parenthood suit. 

Rick:

This is Planned Parenthood suing the two producers. 

Matt:

That’s right. They’re suing them for 16 million dollars. They said that they lost 16 million dollars in funding from different resources because of these videos. So they want them to pay 16 million, but they’ve also filed a RICO claim. So if they’re successful –

David:

That’s federal courts 

Matt:

That’s federal court. Now the first one was state, this one federal and so if they succeed; it would be 16 million times three plus attorney fees and costs. So 48 million dollars plus attorney fees and costs.

Rick:

Let me get this right, Matt.

So these guys uncovered this horrific activity that you just described –

No One Is Going After Planned Parenthood

David:

By following the law. Knowing the law and staying within the law. They did exactly what the law said, and they uncovered illegal activity within the law. And now they’re the ones getting whacked?

Matt:

No one’s going after Planned Parenthood. A prosecutor –

Rick:

They are the ones cutting these babies up and selling these live babies. Nobody going after them.

Some Companies Are Out of Business Now

Matt:

No one’s going after them. In fact, a prosecutor actually went after one of the organ procurement companies, Stem Express, and some others as well. 

They’ve had to pay millions of dollars in fines. Some of them are out of business now except Stem Express is still in business. But no one’s gone after Planned Parenthood for providing. They’re actually intentionally selective. Like you would be an auto parts store, and you get your order for the day of what your purchaser needs, and you go to the shelf and find it. 

If you don’t find it, then you try to find where to get those, and that’s what Planned Parenthood is doing. 

Judge Eric is Limiting What The Videos Are Being Shown To The Jury

So the civil case that we’re in right now. Here’s the problem with the civil case: Judge Eric is the federal judge. 

We asked that he be recused earlier because he has ties to Planned Parenthood. He didn’t recuse himself, and the 9th Circuit didn’t grant our request to recuse him. So he’s presiding over the trial. 

What he is doing is he’s limiting what the videos that can be shown to the jury. So, he’s only allowing some of the introductory snippets. 

Rick:

No kidding.

Matt:

Hello, how you doing? It may be a little conversation to show that they actually did record 

Matt:

Because he doesn’t want Planned Parenthood to look like a bad guy. 

Matt:

He doesn’t want them to see what they were actually talking about other than the fact that they were talking. And here’s the snippet of the recorded video. 

We’ve Asked Many Times To Show These Unedited Videos

He will not allow us, and we’ve asked many times to show these unedited videos that we were able to show in the criminal case, but he’s refused. In other words, here you got a 12-member jury and the judge during the opening statement of our attorney Harry Mihet. And it’s very unusual, almost never happens for a judge to interrupt an opening or closing statement of an attorney. 

So Mr. Mehet was giving the opening statement

David:

He’s such a great guy, and he is such a great attorney

I Want A Lamborghini

Matt:

He starts off with the quote, “I want a Lamborghini,” which came from one of those videos where they have dinner, and Susan is there, and there, the lady from Planned Parenthood is talking about getting baby body parts and how to get more money. She’s sipping wine, and she says I want a Lamborghini. She wants to get more money so she can get a Lamborghini. 

So he starts off like that and shortly into the opening argument, the judge stops him, and he instructs the jury: this case is not, He says, about what the fact of what Planned Parenthood has done. It’s only about whether these recordings were done improperly. He is really diverting any attention from Planned Parent. But the videos, they’re being sued over the videos, and yet the jury is not allowed to see the videos that form the basis of the lawsuit 

They Want To Stop It

Rick:

Because they don’t want to show how evil they are. I remember our friend Carol told me when this stuff first started. She said I really think the evil of and the intention of what plain parent has done for years is finally going to come out. And that’s why they want to stop.

Matt:

That’s why they want to stop it. They see these videos, and they have been devastated. This happens all the time. This is something that didn’t just occur; it happens all the time. They’ve developed abortion techniques to be able to extract the babies so that they can sell the body parts.

I’m Comparing Planned Parenthood To The Nazis

David:

Listening to what you said on the different methods: the facial splitting, the tumultuous delivery. The fact that you have a tick list of how we want the baby delivered and dealt with so that we can get –

 I mean that in itself, I hate to say this, but I’m going to do it. I know the right-wing watch will say that I’m comparing Planned Parenthood to Nazis. 

But in the collection, we just got a letter from a guy in World War II who was an MP who went into early concentration camps couldn’t take it. He left. He heard that night there were some other things going on. 

They begged him to come back. He did, and he went through describing some of the things you’re saying about what parts they had pulled out. What they had displayed, how they had extracted the parts, and what you’re doing. If I read you that letter and did not tell you like 1945, you would think that’s a Planned Parenthood letter.

It’s The Same Everything, Just A Different Age Gestation

Matt:

Yeah. If I described what I just said and I wouldn’t tell you the age of the person involved, you would think it’s Nazi Germany and Holocaust 

David:

 that’s exactly right

Matt:

Because that’s exactly what’s happened. That’s just a different age gestation of the person that has –

David

The same barbarity 

Matt:

The same everything. The same. Frankly, the demonic, satanic spirit of death. That is so callous that it would take innocent human babies and look at them as bodies for sale so someone can get a Lamborghini or have some more financial reward. And yet this baby is sometimes born alive with the intention of extracting certain parts intact.

David:

If you’ve got a split a face and take a brain out. Or you have to have a heart that’s still beating.

I mean clearly, you have to have a life 

It is Unethical To Intimidate Your Witness, So They Don’t Testify

Matt:

That’s what our expert in the criminal trial said. Again she’s not an activist. She’s a researcher. She didn’t know about any recordings that were going to happen after that. She was just consulting David Daleiden, and that’s why the prosecutor did this. You know it’s unethical, and it can be a basis to overturn a criminal trial if the prosecutor attempts to intimidate your witness, so they don’t testify.

 

That’s exactly what this prosecutor did. If you testify, I will indict you. Now, there was no basis for it, but that sends a chill through a person who’s a medical researcher. 

They’re not on the frontlines of – 

This is not what they are doing. They just want to testify to the truth. And fortunately, she testified, and the truth came out.

Liberty Counsel

Rick:

Matt, I’m so glad you were here because I didn’t realize all this was going on. What was happening right now?

I’ve got to get you back on the program as this thing concludes. Let us know how it turns out. People need to be praying. The fact that you guys were there defending them and helping them. This is one of the things that people at home can be a part of and help LC.org

Matt:

LC.org and for this case, LC.org/sandra. You can go there and find out updates on this case

Rick:

 And donate because you guys are there defending them. This cost a lot of money

Matt:

This is going to cost a seven-figure, just to go through this process. It’s the most expensive case in the history of Liberty Counsel by far.

You Can Help With This Case

Rick:

Well, if you if you’re listening and you hear the evil that Planned Parenthood’s part of, and you’ve been saying I want to do something about it. But you think I’m not a legislator, not a congressman. You can help. Your donation to LC.org right now.

You can help with this case. Your prayers for Sandra, David, legal counsel, and for Harry to have wisdom. All those things vitally important 

This Has Got National Consequences In All 50 States

David:

This has got national consequences in all 50 states.

Rick:

That’s right 

David:

Whatever state you’re from this California trial will affect your state because Planned Parenthood is in all 50 states. This is big.

Matt:

Yeah. They intend to intimidate. You dare touch Planned Parenthood. This is what we’re gonna do to you. So we have to win this case. The consequences of losing would be completely, not only in the criminal case, ten years of prison for Sandra, a grandmother, and then lose of everything she’s ever worked for in her life.

This Is Going To Be Very Interesting Few Months

Rick:

This is going to be very interesting to see a few months from now. A couple of weeks ago you were talking about some of the good appointments to even the 9th Circuit that was had so I know Matt

Matt:

Fortunately that Ninth Circuit is starting to change your game

Rick:

It’s going to be interesting to see how those of even those opponents play out in this match.

Matt Staver, God bless you, brother. Keep up the great work. Liberty Counsel does such good work, and we appreciate you coming on WallBuilders Live. 

Matt:

Oh, thanks. My pleasure. 

David:

Thanks for your brother.

This Precarious Moment Book

David:

This is David Barton. I want to let about a brand new book we have called This Precarious Moment: Six Urgent Steps That Will Save You, Your Family, and Our Country. Jim Garlow and I have co-authored this book, and we take six issues that are hot in the culture right now. 

Issues that we’re dealing with, issues such as immigration, race relations, our relationship with Israel, the rising generation Millennials, and the absence of the church in the culture wars, and where American heritage is our godly heritage. We look at all six of those issues right now that are under attack, and we give you both Biblical and historical perspectives on those issues that provide solutions on what each of us can do right now to make a difference. 

These are all problems that are solvable if we’ll get involved. So, you can grab the book. This Precarious Moment and find out what you can do to make a difference. This Precarious Moment is available at WallBuilders.com.

Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. We’re back in the studio with David and Tim Barton.

Special thanks to Matt Staver for taking some time out of Values Voter Summit and sharing with us. 

Man, David, you said it right to begin the program; I mean shocking stuff out of this case. I’m so thankful that we’ve got Matt Staver here and just him bringing these brilliant legal minds on the side of the good guys.

What’s Amazing To Me Is 

David:

What’s amazing to me is you have the state Attorney-General who’s sworn to uphold the law telling an expert witness if you go testify, I will come after you. I’ll bring the force of the state against you 

Tim:

And testify about what you saw and what happened. 

At this point, it’s also not just something that we’re afraid you’re gonna be against somebody, and you’re going to slander. No, I don’t want you to say anything about what you saw or what you heard 

Rick:

We used to call that a cover-up, right? I mean no kidding. 

Tim:

Oh yeah

Rick:

 you don’t testify to what you saw.

It Was An Obstruction Of Justice

David: 

It was obstruction of justice. That would definitely be obstruction of justice, trying to interfere with a court proceeding.

Tim:

And Rick, this is where again, for listeners, I want to highlight one of the things you said it was so important. 

So often we look for moments; where can we go? What can we do? How can we do it? You said it. 

This Is Where You Can Donate To Make A Difference

This is something where if people want to make a difference, Matt said they’re spending so many dollars on this case. If you want to get involved to make a difference, this is a great place for you to give money to make a difference. 

This is something that needs to be won; it needs to be exposed. And if they lose at this level, we know they’re going to keep appealing because this is something that we need some light shown in this dark area. If you want to make a difference, you can donate and be a part of helping in the solution to this issue.

Rick:

Very easy to do. LC.org is the website for Liberty Counsel. They are doing phenomenal work, and we need to stand with these filmmakers and stand with this defense. We can contribute to it and be a big part of it, as Matt said. 

Very expensive to do this, and this will definitely be challenged and go through the appellate process. So it’s going to be a long hard fight pray for them but act as well. Make those donations at LC.org. 

We sure appreciate you listening today. We’ve got more of these interviews from the Values Voter Summit that we plan to share with you in the coming days, so be sure to tune in if you missed some of them there on our website right now Wallbuilderslive.com in the Archives section. A lot of great interviews and a great great opportunity to visit with some of these leaders from across the nation. We sure appreciate you listening today.

Be sure and go to the Web site Wallbuilderslive.com hover over that contribute button but only for a moment and then click on it. Make that one-time or monthly contribution. We appreciate you being a supporter of the program. Thanks for listening to Wallbuilder Live.