Poland’s Exceptionalism, Interview with Deputy Prime Minister of Poland: In today’s episode, we interview the Deputy Prime Minister of Poland and learn about their policies on immigration and about their successful economy. We also learn about what they learned from Ronald Reagan’s administration.
Air Date: 09/13/2017
Guests: Mateusz Morawiecki, David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton
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Transcription note: As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.
Faith And The Culture
Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture, this is WallBuilders Live! Where we’re talking about today’s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture, all of it from a Biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.
We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker, pastor, and president of WallBuilders. And my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislature, national speaker, and author.
Find out more about us and the ministry at our websites WallBuilders.com, that’s our main website, a wealth of information there. Then specifically on the radio program go to WallBuildersLive.com for a list of our stations and also archives of the past programs. Check those out today.
Here with David and Tim now then later in the program we’re going have the Deputy Prime Minister of Poland on the program. You guys are actually headed over to Poland. David, you went, what was it, a year ago? Ten months ago?
Poland Is Like America In The 1950s
Yeah, a few months ago. I don’t remember how long it was but it was a pleasantly shocking trip. I don’t know how to how to explain it. I’ve always kind of thought Poland was kind of a third world country. No, they’re so high tech, their job force is so well educated, the people are advanced in so many ways, and they’ve got a lot of high tech American companies over there.
I mean, Rolex is over there, Amazon, and all these digital companies over there, these guys are really high tech. I’m old enough to have grown up with certain TV series like Leave It to Beaver, Father Knows Best, they’re all black and white is series, and it was all around the traditional family, and that’s exactly what Poland was.
We went to that country from top to bottom, all over, I didn’t see a single piece of trash anywhere. I talked to all sorts of political leaders, and prime ministers, deputy prime ministers, and first thing out they want to talk about God. Then you find out abortion is illegal in Poland, and then you find out Poland likes being a sovereign nation, they’re part of the EU but they refuse to act like it. They don’t use euros, they use their own economy, their own money.
They are really into a hard work ethic, try to get welfare over there without working and you ain’t going to get welfare without working. I mean, it is exactly like America was in the movies in the 1950s, it’s just a wholesome climate. They have one of the lowest crime rates in all of Europe. It’s just an unbelievable nation.
I remember you saying too how clean it was.
It didn’t matter where we went. We went up in the mountains with some farmer guys back on their farms in the mountains and it was a spotless clean, even around their houses, inside their houses.
And we went to Warsaw in Krakow, the two big cities in Poland. We walked the streets, there’s not a cigarette butt on the streets, it was just unbelievably clean. Man, it was a cool place to be.
Poland Isn’t Happy With The American College System
But Poland is really starting to show us some lessons that the rest of the world needs to see. What they’re doing on immigration policy, what they’re doing with faith, and morality, and what they’re doing with colleges.
They are so ticked right now. We’re talking to one of the guys on education when we were there last time, they’re so thick at their colleges because their colleges are starting to act like American colleges, they’re giving you degrees in things that you can’t get a job in.
Well that’s embarrassing. Who would ever do that? That’s ridiculous.
Yeah, why would you get a degree and not get a job with your degree? And they’re complaining because kids are now starting to come out of Polish colleges and they can’t get a job with a college degree.
Wait, we may actually have some listeners that don’t realize how prevalent that is with United States college degrees. As we sit here and joke about it, but that’s so true. It’s like two thirds of college graduates end up with a degree where they end up going into something else that doesn’t have anything to do with the degree that they had.
Well, how many things can you do with a degree in women’s studies, or a degree in surfing, or in playing the bagpipes?
By the way, these are all legitimate degrees. There is actually a degree for Star Trek. Now, how many job entries have you seen for Star Trekkies? I don’t recall any. There’s actually one called, “The Science of Harry Potter.” A degree.
I’m sorry, I got you off track. You were you talking about Poland, and I started thinking, “We know how hilarious this is, as far as the U.S. Colleges are, some of our folks may not know. But back to your conversation.
It was just great. I’m really taken with Poland. They are not a third world nation by any sense. Boy, America could learn a lot from them because what they’ve done is they’ve taken what America got right and they put it in a play. They like us, and they like our people, they love Americans coming over, and they love speaking with Americans.
That’s why we have the deputy prime minister on. He’s in New York and they’re doing stuff with the United Nations now. But they are really in the sovereignty. They’re part of the E.U. but they don’t have that mentality. They’ve got their own nation and they’re proud of their nation, and their people, and their work ethic. It’s just everything wholesome and right. It’s going to be a really fun interview.
Hey Rick, what’s his name again?
Yeah, I’m glad you’re going to be the one that’s actually introducing him since I don’t have to try to- I do this on the program all the time, mispronounce people’s name. It’s so fun for me now that Tim is going to have to do it.
It’s my turn to do an interview. I’m glad we chose a foreign individual who’s name seemed so simple. Ok, I’m going to practice on the break. I’m so going to butcher it, I’m going to practice thought.
Good luck. Back in a moment. Tim Barton interviewing the deputy prime minister of Poland. Stay with us, right here on WallBuilders Live.
Moment From American History
This is Tim Barton with another moment from American history. As the American War for Independence began, the president of Yale was the Reverend Naphtali Daggett. When New Haven, the home of Yale, came under attack about a hundred citizens rushed out to meet the British.
The Reverend Daggett galloped by them on horseback, his clearable robes flowing behind him in the wind. He took up a solitary position atop a hill. The 2,500 British soon put the townsfolk to flight but the Reverend Daggett continued to stand alone firing down on the advancing troops.
A British officer confronted him, “What are you doing there you old fool? If I let you go, will you ever fire again on the troops of his majesty?” Nothing more likely was the preacher’s reply. America’s early pastors personally confronted danger and courageously led their communities.
For more information on Pastor Daggett and other colonial Patriots, go to WallBuilders.com.
What Makes Poland So Unique
Welcome back to WallBuilders Live, this is Tim Barton and I am now joined by the Polish Deputy Prime Minister, the minister of finance and the economy. I know I’m going to struggle with his name, Mateusz Jakub Morawiecki, that was so bad. I’m sorry, please, how do you say your name?
No, this was quite good, this was quite good, thank you. Thanks for having me. Mateusz Jakub Morawiecki from Poland.
Wonderful. So in Poland you helped do a lot obviously with the economy, with finance, what you guys are doing. Poland is a very stable economy. Certainly as we look at a lot of the European Union and see a lot happening in Europe, we see a lot of instability, we see a lot happening with Russia, and their power play.
Even with a lot of nations that have had open borders and really said, “Hey, we invite any immigrants to come in.” They’ve invited a lot of Muslim terrorists and we don’t see any of these issues with Poland, so what makes Poland so different?
That’s correct. Our economy grows very strongly this year. It’s the strongest of all the bigger economies in the E.U. in the top three out of twenty eight nations at four and a half percent in the second quarter of this year.
It’s a very balanced economy with external balance and with quite the budget surplus for the house here which came as a surprise to many analysts. At the same time, we have actually introduced export driven measures which has had lots of our english visitors *. We have built in Central European automotive *, so we’re becoming very attractive for all the companies all over the world.
Toyota has answered with the new manufacturing center. * And Mercedes Daimler from Germany. So all the supply side of the economy is going very well. Also, we have started a Reagan like deregulation through lots of our measures in the real economy.
Poland Creating Opportunities For Small Businesses
You’ve also mentioned about migration and refugees problem.
Before we go there, do you mind if I jump in? You said you’ve started Reagan like deregulation. I assume you’re referring to Ronald Reagan.
Ronald Reagan of course.
For me, that’s very interesting that somebody from over in Europe would point to Ronald Reagan. For us, as a conservative, he’s a hero here in America. But I don’t really think of people in Europe, Poland, looking to Ronald Reagan.
Oh no, no. He said here in Poland actually, in the 80s, I myself was involved in solidarity movement and fighting with communism. We remember very well that Pope John Paul the second and Ronald Reagan from the outside were the two key figures who have helped us a lot in fighting communism and returning to freedom in 1989.
A lot of what Reagan has done was studied very carefully in Poland. Today- I’m quite serious with what I’ve said. We’ve introduced lots of measures on different sectors in terms of deregulation which are going to create more space for for business, in particular for small and mid-sized businesses. Because bigger businesses they find it way easier through external markets, and through the judiciary system, and through the *, and so on.
So we try to create a very good business environment for small and mid-sized businesses from Poland but also from abroad. I met with Polish American Chamber of Commerce a couple of months ago and there were many mid sized business represented there too. So I’m very happy that cooperation between our two countries goes through the lower layers, so to say, of business in the community.
That’s incredible. I had no idea that you guys were so involved with the development of product but even the relations with America. I’m learning a lot of this as you’re saying it.
We really are excited to have you here on the program. For those who might be tuning in now, this is the Deputy Prime Minister of Poland who’s joining us. He’s also in charge of economics- or he’s the minister of finance and economics over in Poland.
Also, in explaining that they are a very growing stable economy. And basing some of the even on Ronald Reagan’s policies, which is super fun to hear as an American, because he’s certainly one of our heroes.
How Poland Handles Deals With Refugees
I interrupted you because you were starting to get into some of your immigration policies which has even helped you remain stable in the midst of your economic growth. And so please would you go back that direction?
Sure, absolutely. There is a conflict among some European states about the refugees. Some * of refugees some some people in Brussels would like all the countries to accept so many refugees from the radical Muslim environments. And Poland is committed to the Australian approach towards the mass migration, or actually the American approach, which is to stop the flow by securing our own borders.
The security is number one issue. We do everything to actually have a very stable and secure environment. And we are very successful with it. At the same time, I believe that we are doing our part because there is a war at our border.
Just as Russia invaded Ukraine, you agree that Poland has a border with Ukraine, so I may say that by supporting Ukraine on the one hand and accepting 1.5 million of Ukrainian migrants workers and some of them are refugees from the eastern part of Ukraine in Donetsk * where the war is. We believe that we are actually contributing to calming down the situation in the eastern border of the European Union.
At the same time, there is a flow of refugees from Northern Africa and Middle East. Some people would like to force Poland to accept also the refugees from those countries, the radical Islamic movements. We see what is happening in France and in Germany recently. In France, several times actually, France is becoming a very unsecure country through lots of different tragic events as I’m sure you’ve seen.
We want to avoid this. We want to be focusing on helping those very poor people in the places of their origin. So our government, and the vast majority of society, believe that we should focus our efforts on helping non-European immigrants in their places of our region. We have increased amounts of money, tens of millions of dollars, for aid for refugees from all over the world, especially from Syria.
This is our approach. We don’t want to be forced to accept tens of thousands, or even thousands of immigrants, who in our eyes may be a *, at the same time we are accepting not tens of thousands but the hundreds of thousands or one and a half million of Ukrainian people, most of them migrant workers. Many of them are also refugees.
So it sounds like your immigration policy really is what most nations should be, you’re not against people coming into your nation, but you’re strategic about who comes to the nation, and what contributions they’re going to have while they’re a part of your nation.
I would imagine, especially with you being the Minister of Finance and Economics, that you are very closely watching how this impacts your economy. It seems like that even having some of these migrant workers come in possibly has benefited your economy since your economy is growing and is as stable as it is.
Well, this is exactly what you said. Apart from all the moral obligations and all the political implications, I have to also look for the results of the economy of such a huge inflow of people. In the definition of solidarity there is no compulsion in my view, just pure voluntary cooperation, and we are cooperating with many humanitarian organizations in the places of a region.
But in the case of compulsory relocation we say, “No.” This is not on the Polish government who says “no.” It is also a Polish society, in 80 percent of them, who clearly do not agree to be forced to accepting refugees.
Also immigrants themselves do not want to come to Poland massively. They want to go to France and Germany because they believe that these are the countries where they have more social benefits and they can live there without much effort, if you know what I mean.
In Poland we are working very hard, 2,000 hours per year average, working hour per each employee in Germany. By comparison it’s 1,300 in the Netherlands. So we believe that we now have to focus on the development of different elements of our economic architecture and we have to be very watchful from the security point of view. And we have to look at the economic impact of those mass migration.
Well, Deputy Prime Minister, I think there’s a lot that other nations, even us in America, can learn watching some of what you guys have done with your strategic immigration, with your protection, but even with your growth in the economy using some of those Reagan like deregulations, which was really fun to hear you say.
But Poland as a nation, I know my family has been several times, we’re planning on coming again actually in the coming weeks. And this is a place that in the midst of some of the unrest in Europe, Poland is a very secure, very stable place, with a lot of history even from World War Two that you can come and actually have a great tourist visit over to Poland.
Which, my family is getting ready to do in just a couple of weeks, so we encourage all our listeners to look at Poland, a lot of the great lessons we can learn. But Deputy Prime Minister, we sure appreciate you taking time to be with us today.
Thank you, thank you very much for having me. Everybody of course is invited. A very secure country, one of the lowest levels of corruption, and one of the lowest levels of crime in the world.
Well that’s the kind of place we wish more nations were like and certainly one that we feel good about coming to visit. After our family comes we’ll be back on the radio and we’ll talk about some more experiences and certainly excited to do that. We’ll take a quick break now. We’ll be back in just a minute with David Barton and Rick Green.
This is David Barton with another moment from America’s history. Around 1790 the infamous Thomas Paine wrote his age of reason attacking religion and Christianity. Interestingly, one of the strongest defenders against Payne’s attack was Benjamin Franklin.
In fact, he stiffly rebuked and told him, “He that spits in the wind spits in his own face. Do you imagine any good would be done by this attack against religion. Think how great a portion of mankind consists of youth who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from violence to support their virtue. I would advise you not to attempt unchaining the tiger but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person. If men are so wicked with religion what would they be if without it?”
Benjamin Franklin believed that the practice of religion was one of the greatest assets of American society. For more information on God’s hand in American history. Contact WallBuilders at 1-800-8-REBUILD.
Pope John Paul And Reagan’s Influence On Poland
Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. Back now with David, Tim Barton, and Rick Green. Tim, great interview with the Deputy Prime Minister. He actually said you got his name pretty well.
Yeah, because he was gracious. That’s all that was, I did not feel good about it. But it was so fun hearing him say things like Reaganomics kind of stuff, they’re using Reagan policies to roll back- I was just like, obviously for us in this program, we look at a lot of what Reagan did with cutting a lot of regulation, the deregulation from Reagan. The difference it made in businesses and the growth of our economy. For them to say, “Oh yeah, this is what we use and this is why our economy’s doing so well.”
This is just incredible hearing this from a European nation, certainly not where you’d think this would come from. Dad, As you were mentioning how Poland is just so different than that perspective that so often we get of European nations, or third world nations as the case might be. This certainly did not seem like I was talking to somebody from a standard european nation.
Oh no, he is different. Even with Reagan, here today our universities are beating the dickens out of Reagan. He’s a really bad guy in our universities. There they are over there saying, “Oh no, we applied this stuff. We’re prospering as a result.”
I thought it was really interesting that he said Reagan and Pope John Paul were the two key figures in helping them fight communism and becoming an independent nation. Two good heroes.
I was then reminded of Newt Gingrich, he did a great, great, great film. It’s called, “Nine days that changed the world.” You heard the deputy prime minister say that he was part of the solidarity movement, that goes back to Lech Walesa, and that’s when they declared independence and they broke away from the Soviet Union.
It was a big deal when that happened, what was it? 1980 or thereabouts? So Reagan was really significant. Pope John Paul and this documentary that Newt Gingrich has done. everybody ought to get and watch it. It is really killer.
It talked about how the pope wanted to come to Poland but they wouldn’t let him come because it was a holiday and the communist didn’t want him being there on a holiday so they gave him some other time and said he can come and spend X number of days, nine days or whatever it was in Poland, and so he did.
So what happened was when the pope got to Poland you had millions, and millions, and millions, of polls show up where the pope was speaking. When they were standing there in those crowds they looked around at each other and said, “Hey, do you see how many of us are here? There’s not this many communists in the nation. How come we let the communist run us when there’s so many of us?”
And that was the turning point between what Reagan did in philosophy and what Pope John Paul did in showing how many of them there were. Remember, Soviet Union was communistic, all the satellite countries had to be communistic and here comes Pope John Paul and millions of Poles turnout for Pope John Paul. They suddenly recognize, “There’s more of us than there is of them.”
Which led to that solidarity and the revolution. So it’s really fun to see a nation in Europe think so highly of America and of faith and think that those are two really good things and have them as their heroes were.
Going to take a quick break, we’ll be right back, on WallBuilders Live! Stay with us.
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Why Poland Is Following America’s Former Principles
Welcome back to WallBuilders Live, thanks for staying with us. Still here with David and Tim Barton talking about the interview with the Deputy Prime Minister of Poland. David, as we were going to break you were talking about how neat it was that they had these American value systems, even Reaganomics, and these things that frankly, made America great in the first place. And they’re implementing those.
You mentioned the deal with Newt, and the whole involvement of the Pope, and Margaret Thatcher and the keys to these things. Why do you think that they, as of the foreign nation, are more willing to look at what worked well in America’s history than even we are today as Americans?
As one of the Deputy Prime Ministers has pointed out before, their universities haven’t started doing what America’s universities are doing. They are objecting to the fact their universities are trying to copy American universities.
Notice what he said, they’ve taken in a million and a half Ukrainian refugees, and that’s not a problem to them, because they’re all productive and they’re working. But they don’t want those Syrian refugees. As he points out, the Syrian guys are the ones that want to go to France and Germany because they’ve got all these social programs, all this welfare benefits, and refugees can go there because they don’t have to work and they got all this government assistance.
But what they’ve got going in their country, “We want productive people here. We don’t have any trouble with refugees, but we want them being productive.” That’s exactly the policy America used to have.
You look at what they’re saying, “Security and economic are our two big considerations.” He talked about how those two things are linked but notice he kept talking about their moral obligations as well. He didn’t dodge morals, he thought morals were really good. He points out, “Hey, we’ve got one of the lowest corruption and one of the lowest crime rates in the world.”
Wait a minute, I keep hearing religion from this guy, I keep hearing conservative government, I keep hearing things about Biblical values, and morality, and I wonder why these guys are doing so good. Here we are in America trying to run the opposite direction from the stuff. But he’s set up some really good benchmarks.
America Needs To Take Lessons From Poland
Why can’t we learn from what they’re doing then? They’re doing this work and your giving us these positive reports of what they’re doing. Maybe we need to hear more of this.
Rick, that was one of the things that struck me. I think I even mentioned it during the interview, looking at what you guys do, this is what more nations ought to be doing. In fact, we should be learning some lessons as Americans.
The reality is true, one of the things that made America so special is that the Founding Fathers, as they’re putting together the Constitution they said, Benjamin Franklin said, “We’ve examined every government that’s ever been around trying to find what works, what’s the best, what can we do.”
And he says, “We really haven’t had success.” This is when he said that we should pray and ask God for help in the midst of it. The point that I want to illustrate is he says, “We looked to everything trying to figure out what is the best.” And what made America so unique is we said, “We want to take the best from every nation. When we have immigrants coming in, what can we learn? What can we do better? How can we do better?”
If we really wanted to be better we could look at Poland and go, “They’re doing some things that work. They’re actually protecting their borders, they’re monitoring their immigration, they’re doing some things with their economics, and their deregulation.” There are some things we can learn, they have some moral values. They’re promoting these kind of things.
They’re looking at results of what works and what doesn’t. They actually believe in truth, that there are some things that work and don’t work.
Something America ought to look at and learn from.
No doubt, good to be able to learn not only from our own history but to see what other nations are doing that is working well. Thanks for listening today, you’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live!