Real Reason Puritans Left Holland:  It’s Foundations of Freedom Thursday, a special day of the week where we get to answer questions from you, the listeners! Always answering your questions from constitutional principles! Tune in today as we answer your questions such as, why was Ben Franklin not a Christian, did Franklin want Biblical values brought into the realm of government, did the Puritans leave Holland due to religious persecution or did they leave due to concerns of their children being corrupted by materialistic Dutch culture, and so much more, right here on WallBuilders Live!

Air Date: 01/11/2018

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton

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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Intro:

President Thomas Jefferson said, “€œI know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves. And if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.”€

Faith And The Culture

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture.  This is WallBuilders Live! Where we talk about today”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture. Always from a Biblical, historical, and Constitutional perspective. Those three areas, man, if we can zero in on those three perspectives, we can find the right answer to virtually any question today.

So, Biblical, historical, and Constitutional perspective

We’re doing that here with David Barton. He”€™s America’s premier historian and our founder here at WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, he”€™s national speaker and pastor, and president of WallBuilders. My name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator.

Rick:

Today is Thursday. We try on every Thursday to do a “€œFoundations of Freedom”€ program. That’s a chance for you to ask the questions. Might be about the founding fathers, might be about an issue going on in the culture, whatever your question may be. Send it in to [email protected].

That’s [email protected]. We let you ask the questions and we dive into those foundational principles to answer those questions.   You can find out more about us and our two websites, WallBuildersLive.com -that’s our radio site. And then WallBuilders.com.

We’re here with David and Tim right now. We’ve got a whole list of questions, you guys ready to dive in?

David:

You bet! Let’s hit it, Rick.

Rick:

Alright, guys. First question comes from Eric, he says, “€œGood afternoon everybody. I have a question for David, Tim, and Rick about Ben Franklin–

We Vote for Rick!

David:

Wait a minute, let”€™s vote. Let’s vote for Rick to answer this.

Rick:

Oh no, wait. Did I say David, Tim, and Rick? I meant David and Tim. I was going to leave that part out of his email.

Tim:

Guys, I haven’t even seen the question yet. Isn’t that supposed to be contingent like the Bible says something about don’t speak until you’ve heard the case or something along those lines it seems like? So, probably not prudent to vote. Although, if we’re going to vote, I vote for Rick.

David:

There you go.

Rick:

I don’t even have to see the question to know that I vote for David and Tim.

David:

Well, wait a minute, we are a democracy in America, right? Oh wait, we’re a republic, that won’t work.

Tim:

I — wait, who do I want as my leader? Shoot.

David:

Bad choices all. Alright, Rick, sorry go ahead. Go with your question.

Ben Franklin – a Christian, a Deist, or Something Else?

Rick:

Alright, we”€™ll jump right into it. Here goes, “€œWe read about Ben Franklin and the things that he said. Specifically, referencing 14 different scripture verses in his petition to Congress for Congressional Prayer. You would not be crazy for coming away with the assumption that Ben Franklin was a Christian. Obviously, we see that he is not a deist because anyone who believes and says God governs in the affairs of men can no longer be considered a diest.

“€œSo, I was wondering why Ben Franklin was not a Christian? Thanks guys for everything you do. I love listening to your programs. They’re awesome and very inspiring. And one day, I want to ask my pastor to have you guys out.”€

That’s a great idea. We should encourage other listeners to do the same thing. Get one of the WallBuilders speakers out to share at your church. Alright, guys, let’s jump into Eric’s question. What do you think – is Ben Franklin a Christian, or a deist, or something else?

David:

Well, I’m going to take the first part of that why he’s not a Christian. Look, nobody can say whether he’s a Christian except the Great Judge before whom he will appear. Not me, not Tim, not anybody else can say Ben Franklin is or is not a Christian. It is just, you can’t do that. But there are some conclusions you can kind of assume and I’m going to answer based on the supposition, for the last 2000 years, of what constitutes Orthodox Christian theology.

Orthodox Christian theology says that Jesus Christ is divine, He is the son of God.  What happened with Ben Franklin is, I think Ben Franklin lived his life largely thinking he was a Christian.  Late in life one of his very good friends, Ezra Stiles, who was the president of Yale University wrote Ben. He was a good friend with Ben and he said to Ben, he said, “€œBen, here’s the deal. We are setting aside room here at Yale where we’re going to put portraits of great Americans like you who helped us become a nation.

So we want to hang a portrait there of you. Do you have a portrait we can use?”€ And so Franklin writes him back and says, “€œWell, no, I really don’t.”€Â  This, by the way, all happened about six months before Franklin died. So, this is late, late, late, in his life, he”€™s in his 89th year.

Ezra Stiles’€™ Letter

David:

And so Stiles writes him, “€œDo you have a portrait?”€ And Franklin writes back and says, “€œI don’t have any that I really like.”€ He says, “€œHowever, I’ve heard that this young man who’s come to America and people are sitting for portraits for him. So, I”€™ll sit for the portrait and if I like it, you can have that.”€ And so Ezra Stiles writes back and says, “€œThat is great.”€

He said, “€œBy the way, you and I have been friends for a long time,”€ he said, “€œI want to ask you a question and don’t be offended over it.”€ He said, “€œBut I wish everyone in the world was exactly like me at least concerning my relationship with Jesus. I have a personal relationship with Jesus, He is my Savior. I’ve never asked you – is Jesus your Savior?”€

And Franklin writes him back, and this is now about four months before his death, and Franklin writes back and says, “€œYou know, I’m not offended at you. We’ve been friends for a long time and the question doesn’t bother me.”€ He says, “€œBut, I really don’t know how I would answer that question.”€

He says, “€œI’m really not sure that Jesus was divine.”€ He said, “€œBut however, I’ve never studied the issue. “€œIf I studied it I might know, but at this point, I haven’t studied it. I don’t think He is divine.”€

Now, for a lot of people in the theological realm, that’s enough to say he was not a Christian. Alright, that’s very possible. By orthodox standards, he probably wasn’t. However, we don’t know what happened in the last four months of his life. Whether that letter spurred him to check on things or exactly what he did.

But based on what Eric was saying, you look just at the fruits of what Franklin did and you would assume he’s a Christian.

Deist Meant Something Different at That Time

Tim:

Well, and let me jump in on this too. So, Franklin even writes in his own autobiography that he’s a deist. However, deist at that time was someone who either questioned or didn’t believe in the triune Godhead, that there are three gods in one, or who didn’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. Which Franklin, at that point in this letter even says, “€œI’m not sure about the divinity of Jesus.”€ However, Franklin is very much a God-believer.

David:

And let me stress that for a minute, Tim, because the definition of deist back then is not the definition today. When Franklin says he is a deist, that’s like, if I can make this analogy, that’s like saying I’m an Orthodox Jew, who believes that there is a real God, that He answers prayer, that He loves His children, that He gets involved in our lives. It’s like an Orthodox Jew saying, “€œI don’t believe Jesus is the Messiah, but I believe everything in the scriptures other than that.”€

Tim:

Well, and that was the exact comparison I’m going to make. Where Franklin, if you look at his life, he very much is like a very religious Orthodox Jew.

David:

And wait a minute, I”€™ve got to say one other thing. Because people say, “€œWait a minute, I thought he slept around with the women and he had illegitimate children.”€ Yes, early in life he did. He had at least two children outside of marriage, but you will find in his autobiography that that came to a real change. And there is a real difference after that point in time, so something changed him significantly.

And actually, Tim, you know what it is.

Something Changed in His Life

Tim:

Yes. So, one of the things that was very significant for Franklin was actually he had heard a pastor, well specifically a preacher, wasn’t really a pastor per se. But he heard a preacher and he heard this man out ranting and screaming in a field. And Franklin stopped to listen and he listened and said, “€œThis is the most incredible thing I’ve heard.”€ He loved the guy, gave the guy all the coins in his pocket.

The guy spoke again the next day. Franklin comes back and listens to him. Franklin gives him all the coins in his pocket. And this became a pretty standard routine that Franklin would listen to this guy speak. Franklin gave him all his money.

Franklin gets frustrated, “€œWhy do I keep giving this guy my money?”€ So, Franklin writes that he decided one day, “€œI’m not going to take my purse with me because I don’t want to give my money away.”€

He then writes later in his journal, kind of the next telling that he gives, is that he’s very frustrated. Because even though he didn’t bring his purse, he was so compelled by the speaker he said, “€œI borrowed money from a friend so I would have money to give to this guy. I’m so frustrated I can’t not give this guy money.”€ Well, the guy he was listening to was the Reverend George Whitefield. And so George Whitefield, being the great evangelist from the First Great Awakening.

He’s so impressed, Franklin wants to build an addition on his house, invites Whitefield to come and live with him, they want to spend time together. It was through this relationship with Whitefield that Franklin’s life really seems to take a turn. Where he definitely seems to embrace faith, and religion, and this whole God idea more than any other time. And that’s when you see he’s no longer sleeping around, he’s no longer having kids out of wedlock, he’s no longer doing these things.

Franklin’s 13 Virtues

David:

By the way, I”€™ve got to point out that what he did. Also in his autobiography he says, “€œYou know, I thought about all the sermons that I’ve heard over the years, and I thought about what I’ve been learning, and what I’ve been hearing Whitefield and others. All the stuff I’ve been hearing,”€ he said, “€œit looks to me like you could boil everything down to 13 different virtues. So what he did was he created a graph with 13 virtues – honesty, and piety, and whatever it was.  He said, “€œInstead of me thinking about living what I heard in the sermon for next week, what I want to do is I want to take one of these 13 virtues I hear in these sermons.

“€œAnd I’m going to spend the entire week just living that virtue. I’m going to focus on that. That’s all I do for the whole week.”€Â  He created a chart where he could judge himself everyday on how he did in living out that virtue. So there’s this chart that he has and so he said, “€œIf you do this, and you live a virtue a week and then go to the next virtue,”€ he said, “€œWhat that means is, over the course of a year you will have repeated that virtue four times.

“€œWhich means you will have spent a full month every year on these 13 virtues.”€ Because there are 52 weeks, so even though there are 12 months, there’s really 13 segments of four weeks. And so he created this and at WallBuilders, we actually on the website sell his book of virtues. This is the chart that he created with the explanation of what he did. And so this is the kind of stuff you see coming out after he spends his time with Whitefield.

Tim:

And Franklin certainly was not a perfect guy. There are many flaws we can point to, early life is easy to see.

David:

Now every other Christian I know was a perfect guy and I’m really disappointed that Franklin.

Tim:

Well, but you know anytime we talk about how one of these guys was really neat, or really cool, or really good, you always have the critics that go, “€œWait a second. You didn’t say they weren’t perfect.”€ Okay, so let me just preface, he wasn’t perfect, just get that out of the way. But, toward the latter half of his life, you definitely see he’s very pro-religious, very pro-Bible, very pro-God, pro Christian. And so you–

Franklin – “€œLet”€™s Start a Christian Colony”€

David:

And by the way, can I point out that while he had Whitefield living there with him he said, “€œGeorge, I’ve got this great plan. I can get access to the Ohio territory. It’s been a French-held territory, or Ohio area.”€ He says, “€œLet’s you and me go start a Christian colony there so that we can show the Indians how Christians really live. Because all they’ve seen is that French lifestyle and that’s really lousy for Christians.

And so you”€™ve got Franklin trying to say, “€œLet’s create a Christian colony to show Indians how Christians really live.”€ That’s Whitefield and Franklin we’re talking about.

Tim:

So, it’s very easy to draw the conclusion that Franklin might have been a Christian if you read some of– And again, depending on where you look in his life you might come to different conclusions. When you look at the whole of his life and how his life ended, it’s easy to go, “€œYou know, he really seems like, I mean, he quotes the Bible more than the Christians I know today. He seems more religious than Christians I know today.”€ And certainly, that does seem to be the case with Franklin.

Dad, as you mentioned, the fact that he’s not sure about the sovereignty of Jesus, about Jesus being God, divine, theologically I would think it’s tough to be saved at that moment. However, only he and God knows what he did in the last couple months of his life. So, who knows if he became a Christian or not, but he certainly was a pro-faith, pro-religious, guy. Especially the latter half his life.

David:

And I can go further than that, he wasn’t just pro-religious, he was a pro-faith, pro-Christian, pro-Bible, kind of a guy. He was very specific, he even, in the local church, I think it was for 60 years he had a pew in the local church.

Tim:

Yep.   

A Statewide Plan to Raise Church Attendance

David:

He was a dedicated– when he became the governor of Pennsylvania, he comes up with a statewide plan to raise church attendance. Now, you tell me a Christian governor in the United States in the last 100 years who”€™s done that.

Tim:

Sure. He attended church with many of the Founding Fathers. There’s plenty of evidence to look and go, “€œHe sure seems like a Christian.”€ There’s no evidence that we could point to theologically to confirm, yes, he said he’s a Christian, he believed Jesus is the Son of God, divine. We really can’t confirm that, but he definitely is not one of these anti-religious “€œFounding Fathers”€ that we hear about today.

David:

I”€™m going to do this quick sum on the five least religious founding fathers. The five today that people say are the nonreligious ones, like Franklin, and I’m going to show you what they– No, I’m not going to show you, I’m going to let you see what they said about religion, and how they practiced faith, and what they did that literally would make most Christians today be ashamed of the way they practice their Christian faith. And these are the guys that are accused of being the least religious Founding Fathers.

Rick:

Got to take a quick break, guys. We’ll be right back. It’s Foundations of Freedom Thursday. Send in your questions to us radi[email protected]. We’ll be right back WallBuilders Live.

Outro:

Abraham Lincoln said, “€œWe the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts. Not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”€

Share a veteran’s story

We Want To Hear Your Vet Story

Rick:

Hey friends! If you have been listening to WallBuilders Live for very long at all, you know how much we respect our veterans and how appreciative we are of the sacrifice they make to make our freedoms possible. One of the ways that we love to honor those veterans is to tell their stories here on WallBuilders Live.  Once in awhile, we get an opportunity to interview veterans that have served on those front lines that have made incredible sacrifices have amazing stories that we want to share with the American people.

One of the very special things we get to do is interview World War II veterans. You’ve heard those interviews here on WallBuilders Live, from folks that were in the Band of Brothers, to folks like Edgar Harrell that survived the Indianapolis to so many other great stories you heard on WallBuilders Live.

You have friends and family that also served.  If you have World War II veterans in your family that you would like to have their story shared here on WallBuilders Live, please e-mail us at [email protected].  Give us a brief summary of the story and we’ll set up an interview. Thanks so much for sharing here on WallBuilders Live!

Intro:

Thomas Jefferson said, “€œThe Constitutions of most of our states, and of the United States, assert that all power is inherent in the people that they may exercise it by themselves. That it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. That they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press.”€

Rick Asks a Question

Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live! Foundations of Freedom Thursday today diving into those principles with your questions. Send them into [email protected], that”€™s [email protected]. First question today was from Eric about Ben Franklin. We’ve got some more questions coming up, but I want to ask a question. Can I ask the question?

David:

I don’t know. Tell us what it is.

Tim:

I think you just did ask your question.

David:

Oh, that’s right he did.

Rick:

Can I ask a second question?

Tim:

You just did.

Rick:

Okay, so my third question is, I finally caught on I was a little slow there.  My third question is a follow up to Eric’s question. So, you guys addressed whether or not Franklin was a Christian. Okay, but if he had all these beliefs about liking the Bible, and Biblical principles, and that sort of thing, was that just personal? Or was he also for those Biblical values and those principles being brought into the realm of government and guiding our decisions as legislators?

Tim:

Well, if you go back and read the Pennsylvania State Constitution which Franklin has a part and helping write, helping draft–

David:

1776 constitution.

Franklin and the Pennsylvania State Constitution

Tim:

Yeah, so after we separate from Great Britain when the War for Independence is happening, 1776, we did the Declaration of Independence. Every state now has to go back and write their own constitution because now they’re not living under the king – they’re their own independent nation. And so every state goes and starts writing their own state constitution. So, Franklin helped write that Pennsylvania’s constitution. So, all you have to do is go back and read the Pennsylvania State Constitution to get an impression for what Franklin thought and what he agreed with as they”€™re drafting and putting this together.

And in the Pennsylvania State Constitution, the one from 1776, it says it you can’t even hold office if you don’t believe in the Old and  New Testaments that were given by divine inspiration. If you don’t believe in God if you don’t believe that there is a future state of rewards and punishments. It’s all very, very, religious and this is to hold government office. And so certainly they did not see a disconnect between having religious moral standards being applied, and really almost a necessity, for any kind of government official to have that standard of morality.

Rick:

Well, I had to ask you that follow up because I know we have listeners that are going to ask that question or they’re going to send in an e-mail saying–

David:

Well, hang on there, Rick, we’re not done yet because I’ve got one more to add to that while we’re talking about Franklin.

Rick:

Go for it.

Plagiarizing Hebrew Writings

David:

I got an interesting e-mail from a rabbi, our rabbi, Rabbi Lapin, he”€™s the rabbi of the show here. And so Rabbi Lapin sends this e-mail he says, “€œHey, I’m just reading Poor Richard’s Almanack and it’s got so many Hebrew proverbs in it. Did Franklin study Hebrew? Study Jews? Did he–“€

And I thought, “€œGreat question.”€ So, we start looking back and turns out, not only is Franklin a huge student of Hebrew writings, and Hebrew, and the Old Testament, they actually accused him of plagiarizing Hebrew writings to use them so much in his writings. And so many of those quippy statements that he has in Poor Richard’s Almanack really came out of Hebrew religious writings. So, there is another one.

And by the way, we can throw in what he did with Thomas Paine. When Thomas Paine tried to attack Christianity in America, it was Ben Franklin who spanked them down and said, “€œWhat do you think you’re doing? This is really bad stuff.”€ And it was Franklin who, when he was on the committee to create the first national seal for America, he came up with a Bible story. He came up with the story out of Exodus with Moses.

This is the stuff Franklin comes up with. So, he’s not just saying the stuff, he’s actually doing it and promoting it in public policy.

Tim:

From a governmental position.

David:

That”€™s right.

Separation of Church and State

Tim:

So yeah, again, there’s this notion that they wanted a separation of church and state they didn’t want religion to be in government. It’s just not historically accurate. You don’t find it in the history books. You don”€™t find it in their writings.

David:

Now, let me qualify, they did a want separation church and state, they didn’t want a secularization of church and state. They didn’t want a state established religion–

Tim:

Yes.

David:

–which, to them, was separate.

Tim:

They didn’t want the modern interpretation–

David:

That”€™s right, that”€™s right.

Tim:

— of separation of church and state. They kept religion away from government. They didn’t want the government controlling religion, but they didn’t think you shouldn’t have government without the religious standards and morals. Because that’s what gives you the right and wrong that is the whole point of what we’re doing here. So, they didn’t believe you should divorce and separate your religious faith from government.

But they didn’t want a government leader running the church, they don’t want the church running the government. However, they use those religious standards and thought that you shouldn’t even be in government if you didn’t have those religious, Christian, Biblical, standards.

Rick:

Well, we don’t usually take three segments for one question, but Eric, you had a fantastic question. Thanks for sending it in. We”€™ve got to take a quick break. We’ll have time for one more question when we come back. Stay with us, you’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

Outro:

President Calvin Coolidge said, “€œThe more I study the Constitution, the more I realize that no other document devised by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity. To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.”€

Biographical Sketches

Hi friends! This is Tim Barton of WallBuilders.This is a time when most Americans don’t know much about American history or even heroes of the faith. I know, oftentimes as parents, we”€™re trying to find good content for our kids to read.

If you remember back in the Bible, the Book of Hebrews it has the Faith Hall of Fame, where they outlined the leaders of faith that had gone before them. Well,, this is something that as Americans we really want to go back and outline some of these heroes not just of American history, but heroes of Christianity and our faith as well.

I wanted to let you know about some biographical sketches we have available on our website. One is called, “€œThe Courageous Leaders Collection“€ and this collection includes people like Abigail Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Francis Scott Key, George Washington Carver, Susanna Wesley, even the Wright brothers.

There’s a second collection called, “€œHeroes of History“€ in this collection you read about people like Benjamin Franklin, Christopher Columbus, Daniel Boone, George Washington, Harriet Tubman, the list goes on and on.

This is a great collection for your young person to have and read. And it’s a providential view of American and Christian history. This is available at WallBuilders.com.

Intro:

Thomas Jefferson said, “€œIn questions of power then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.”€

Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Foundations of Freedom Thursday today and our next question comes from Sebastian. It’s on the history of the Puritans. He says, “€œMichael Medved recently released a video for Prager University now available on YouTube–“€

And, by the way, plug for PragerU. Hey, folks out there, go watch PragerU videos. They are fantastic. You learn so much in five minutes.

Why Did the Pilgrims Leave Holland?

Rick:

Alright, he goes on to ask, “€œI recently shared with my pastor some of the things I learned in that video and he responded by telling me that the Puritans were, in fact, leaving oppression from Holland and Michael Medved is wrong. I’m having issues coming to terms with the truth of, did the Puritans leave Holland due to religious persecution? Or did they leave due to concerns of seduction and their children being corrupted by materialistic Dutch culture?”€ David, Tim?

Tim:

Well, let me jump in because the first thing I would ask, and anytime someone questions a position, “€œWell, they’re not right.”€ The first question I always ask is, “€œHow do you know?”€ So, Michael Medved was wrong and he misrepresented. So, how do you know? What sources do you have?

I would ask the pastor. And not trying to be confrontational. Because ultimately in life, I want to know what’s true, I want to believe in what is true, and I want to stand for what’s true. And so in a pursuit of truth, I want to know what, “€œWell pastor, so, if he’s wrong–“€. And by the way, I hold the position anybody can be wrong on any point in their life.

I don’t believe anybody’s right every time except Jesus. God whom we serve, yes, He’s perfect, great. Beyond that, all humans, no, nobody’s going to perfect every time. So, yeah, anybody can be wrong at some point in time. So, Michael Medved might be wrong, but, “€œPastor, what proof do you have that he is wrong?”€

And that’s where I would start. Because if he’s going to make a claim that Michael Medved is wrong, what did he say that’s wrong and how do we know he’s wrong? What source do you have? What proof do you have? And again, this is just in a pursuit of truth.

Now with that being said, I would take the position that Michael Medved wasn’t really wrong in saying that they didn’t leave Holland because of persecution. They actually left England because of persecution going to Holland, but they didn’t leave Holland because of persecution.

David:

And, you’ve got to understand in England, the Queen killed their pastor because the pastor said Jesus Christ is head of the church. She said, “€œNo, I am.”€ And so–

Doctrinal Positions

Tim:

Well, and more specifics, so their pastor had challenged the Queen’s position because she’s enforcing doctrinal positions. And he says, “€œHey, that’s not what the Bible says.”€ She says, “€œWell, I’m in charge.”€ He says, “€œNo, Jesus is in charge.”€

David:

Oh, you’re dead.

Tim:

Right. So, he was challenging what she was doing changing doctrine, changing what the Bible actually says. And because he challenged her, she said, “€œNo, you don’t understand. I’m the one who says what’s right and wrong. I determine theology, I determine doctrine.”€

And so he was executed for challenging her position of making up theology and doctrine.

David:

And then parliament passed a law that says anybody that challenges her “€œecclesiastical supremacy,”€ in other words, anyone who challenges her being supreme over theology.

Tim:

Yeah, so if you do what this pastor just did, you’re going to get what he just got.

David:

They said, “€œWe’re going to put you in prison without bail. You will be there with the roaches until you die with all the vermin infested stuff. And by the way, we’re also charging you a fine for every Sunday you do not go to the Anglican Church.”€ Well, they had home churches and they weren’t Anglicans, so at that point, they did leave England. Because of the persecution, they went to Holland.

They Left England Because of Persecution, But Not Holland

Rick:

So, they left England because of persecution, but not necessarily Holland.

David:

Well, they”€™re in Holland, so let’s see what happens.

Tim:

Right, so, Rick, you’re right. So, they leave England because of persecution. They go to Holland because in Holland, Holland has a tolerant society. You can come and practice your religion. But Holland is kind of like the modern day France-ish in the sense that it’s very secular.

And so they are not anti-religion, but they’re certainly not pro-religion. Well, as these Pilgrims are there in Holland, their kids are beginning to pick up the culture around them. They’re beginning to speak the language of the people there. They’re beginning to take up some of the customs and practices.

And the Pilgrims go, “€œWait a second, we don’t want our kids growing up being secular in a secular culture. We really like the English culture we just want to practice our freedom.”€ So they leave Holland not because of persecution, but because of the secular nature of Holland. And their kids were starting to embrace some of what they thought would make them secular. And so they wanted to get out to protect their kids from a secular position.

David:

And this is in the writings of William Bradford who was part of that group, who came over on the Mayflower, who talked about why they left Holland. So, Tim”€™s right – ask the pastor, “€œWhat’s your source.”€ And unless it’s a better source than the guy who was actually there, it”€™s probably not a good choice.

Tim:

Yeah, so unless he knows more than William Bradford, the governor of the Pilgrims, he’s probably not right.

Going to an Original Source to Understand Why They Left Holland

Rick:

You talk about going to do an original source, you”€™re talking about somebody that actually experienced it. Not what a professor says, not what some book says, but actually reading the writings of the folks that were actually there. That’s what you call true original intent.

You can get more of that at WallBuilders.com and WallBuildersLive.com. Send your questions into [email protected] and we’ll try to get to them on a Foundations of Freedom Thursday. Thanks so much for listening today to WallBuilders Live.

Outro:

Samuel Adams said, “€œThe liberties of our Country, and the freedom of our civil Constitution, are worth defending against hazards. And it is our duty to defend them against all attacks.”€