Rape Culture, Does The Bible Produce And Promote Rape: In today’s episode, we have special guest Pastor Ken Graves on to talk about the claim from a professor that the Bible produces rape culture. Where did this thought come from? What does produce rape culture? And how can we protect against it? All this and more answered, right here on WallBuilders Live! 

Air Date: 04/25/2018

Guest: Pastor Ken Graves

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we talk about the day’s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture. But always from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

We do that with David Barton, America’s premier historian and Tim Barton, national speaker, pastor. My name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator.

You can find out more about us at WallBuildersLive.com, our radio site. And then also WallBuilders.com, our main site with a lot of great tools available to you right now. Go visit that site you can download things, you can get books and DVDs, share them with your friends and family. Help get folks educated about how great this country was, and how great it can be again, and how important it is to return to those founding principles.

David, Tim, when we say a “historical perspective” that somewhat begs the question – which history? Do we go with the revised history that’s typically taught on college campuses today? Or do we go back to the original documents and the real history?

David:

Well, it depends on whether you want truth or not. You go back to original documents if truth is important. And it is for us, it’s not for a lot of folks. In the rising generation we know that 4 out of 5 believe there is no absolute moral truth. So, truth is in question. But you were talking, Rick, about rejecting it, rewriting it, that is revisionism.

What is Revisionism?

David:

What is revisionism. Well, I just looked it up in the Collins Dictionary and it says, “To reject traditionally held beliefs about a particular historical event or events.” Now notice that definition – “reject traditionally held beliefs.” With history, you’re not finding new stuff, per se, generally. When you look back to the time of Jesus you’re not finding new documents today that give us a new perspective on Jesus. That stuff’s been out for hundreds of years, thousands of years.

For example, you look back at the American Revolution and suddenly we now know we weren’t battling the British in the Revolution we were badly in the Manchurians because we found a new document. No, no, no, that’s not what happens. Over a period of 200 years you’ve basically found what’s out there. So, revisionism says, “I reject the traditionally held beliefs about that event” – about American Revolution, or the founding fathers, or whatever.

So, then that begs the question, “Okay, if you reject it, what do you do?” Well, the tendency is you want to replace it with what your view of the truth is. It becomes a personal opinion – “I don’t think the founding fathers were religious and I don’t care if that is traditionally held for 200 years. I don’t believe they were, so I’m going to teach my kids that they were all a bunch of atheists, agnostics, deists.” That’s revisionism.

So, you’re taking traditionally held beliefs and you’re not finding new evidence. So, you’re looking for stuff – maybe it exists, maybe it doesn’t. Or if it does exist maybe you’re picking a clause out of context from somebody’s writing.
Tim:
So, yeah, you’re looking for something that affirms what you already believe–

David:

That’s right.

Tim:

And sometimes when you think you’ve found something that affirms it you might be taking it out of context to lead you to the conclusion that, “See, this is exactly what I’ve been saying.”

The Problem With Foregone Conclusions

Tim:

Such as, we saw an article from a college professor who said all the founding fathers were raging alcoholics. And then the evidence he gives you’re like, “This is the most ridiculous article I’ve ever read.” The information is so bad, but he already had a foregone conclusion. So, he was just looking for evidence to affirm what he already– Now, I’m saying he had a foregone conclusion. I don’t know how else you could have arrived at that because the information he presents certainly did not lead you to that conclusion.

But this is what happens with revisionism is they present something that’s not historically backed up, it’s not historically confirmed. But they will show something from history, or attempt to show something from history, that would at least in their minds support their viewpoint. Although, in reality it doesn’t.

David:

And so what happens is that’s revisionism. You’re creating your version of truth when it conflicts with traditionally held stuff based on history. So, when you have revisionism, how does it work? Well, what you do to revise something you first go silent and teach nothing about what actually happened. Then when people no longer remember what actually happened you can teach them anything as a replacement. So, you have truth and then you go silent on it for a while, don’t teach it. Then you come up with your version and replace it.

And that’s now what’s happening with the Bible. We are at a point in American history where, statistically speaking, we’re the most Biblically illiterate that America has ever been across the board. Christians, non-Christians, they know less about the Bible than any point in our history. And so because of that, and because we don’t teach the Bible like we used to, we can now come up with all these really wild claims about the Bible.

Here’s a great example here’s a headline – “Church of the Holy Cross Professor–” and I can’t say this name — “Dr. * Benny Lou Claims that Jesus was a Drag Queen Who Had Queer Desires.” Now, how do you get that out of the Bible?

How Do You Get That Out of the Bible?

Rick:

No kidding.

David:

Well, it’s because you don’t know what the Bible says. If you knew the Bible you would laugh this guy down instantly. But if you don’t know what’s in the Bible, or you just see the picture of Leonardo da Vinci with Jesus at the last supper, you go, “Yeah, He does look a little gay there, doesn’t He?” That was the painting style back in that day, soft figures. And so you get all this radical stuff coming.

So, there is an article we saw recently that says the Bible creates a rape culture. Now who’s going to believe that? Well, people who don’t know the Bible believe that. Now, if you know the Bible you know the Bible raises a really high standard of sexual purity, that the Bible actually calls for the death penalty for those who commit rape. There’s nothing in the Bible that creates a rape culture unless you don’t know what the Bible says. But that’s now the new claim that’s out there.

Rick:

Well, that’s one that’s– you’ve got to tell the truth, you’ve got to debunk the myth by showing the evidence. And of course, one of our friends that’s great at debunking things like this is Pastor Ken Graves. And I love even just listening to his voice – he’s got the best radio voice out there. I love it when he says “brothers”.

Tim:

He sounds like the most masculine man in the world. There was that beer commercial   supposed to be the most interesting man in the world. I don’t know if they have the most masculine man in the world, but Ken Graves has the voice of the most masculine man in the world.

David:

I think he’s the only pastor in America that I know who used to go into the cage with a champion UFC cage fighter and he actually beat this guy.   

Rick:

Yeah, no doubt.

David:

He trained with him, and he was a sparring partner, and he actually beat the champion. So, I don’t know of any pastor in America who also has been in the cage with a champion UFC fighter and beat him. So, Tim, you’ve got to be right – this has got to be the most masculine pastor in America.

Rick:

Well, we are thrilled to have him back. Pastor Ken Graves our special guest. Stay with us. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

Moment From American History

This is Tim Barton with another moment from American History. The year after the American War for Independence ended we begin addressing the issue of Muslim terrorists in North Africa, who were attacking American ships, killing, and enslaving American seamen.

Congress dispatched John Adams and Thomas Jefferson to negotiate peace. When they asked the Muslim ambassador the reason for the unprovoked attacks he told them that it was written in their Qur’an, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them whenever they could be found.

Sixteen years of negotiations failed and in 1801 America send its military to crush the terrorists. When that war ended in 1805 the first American edition of the Qur’an was published, urging Americans to read the Qur’an to see for themselves that it’s teachings were incompatible with the safety and peace of non-Muslims. To see the first American Qur’an and to get more information about America’s first war on Islamic terror, go to WallBuilders.com.

Rick:
Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. Our friend, Ken Graves, is back with us, pastor of Calvary Chapel Bangor, Maine. Pastor, good to have you back.

Pastor Ken Graves:

It is good to be back with you.

Rick:

Brother, we were actually just watching– I was watching with my boys the other night watching you on YouTube. And I loved hearing you say, “Brothers–” and I had some interesting comments about the fashion of today and men being men. But that’s not our topic for today. I just wanted to tell you we were just watching you on television the other day.

Pastor Ken Graves:

Thanks for doing that, Rick.

Rick:

You’re everywhere. Hey, what about this crazy– there’s an article where this professor is literally blaming the rape culture on the Bible.

Pastor Ken Graves:

Yeah.

It Could Only Have Come From a Professor…

Rick:

Claiming that it comes out of the Bible, that the Bible somehow glorifies rape, or says rape is okay. What are your thoughts on this article?

Pastor Ken Graves:

Well, there are certainly statements that are made that are so profoundly stupid that they could only have come from a professor.

Rick:

*laughter* True. Yes.

Pastor Ken Graves:

Interestingly that is what the title, the headline, of the article says, but then the article doesn’t go on to make that case. It merely relates the accounts both in scripture and then they also include apocryphal books that rape is an acknowledged. It’s an acknowledged consequence of a fallen world. They acknowledge it in scripture, the article only presents that – that’s all. There’s no attempt in the article to blame the Bible for it – just the headline does–

Rick:

Yeah.

Pastor Ken Graves:

It really is profoundly stupid.

Rick:

That’s a great point. And when someone even for a headline to claim that I was racking my brain going, “Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute. Any instance of that in the Bible is condemned–”

Pastor Ken Graves:

Yeah.

Rick:

“–and there’s huge punishments, and there’s all kinds of negatives as a result.”

Pastor Ken Graves:

Always.

Rick:

Not at all, this idea that somehow the Bible would say rape is okay.

The Sad Reality

Pastor Ken Graves:

Far from it, Rick. The sad reality is that in Genesis chapter 3 when the Creator has to lay out to our parents the consequences that would be. And it’s not his punishment – it is the reality that he designed them to live in a certain world and they have just chosen to join a rebellion and deviate. And He lets them know the consequence, the result, of taking His design into that way of life.

He used, in their English Bible, he used the word sorrow for both Adam and Eve. The word sorrow appears twice in our English Bible with regard to what the Lord said to our mother Eve. And I really do think that is a subtle indication that God knew it was gonna be worse to be a woman than to be a man in a fallen world. Being, as the scripture acknowledges, the physically weaker vessel. And being, as the design of God, is that women feel things much more deeply. In an arrangement like this one and under the effects of the curse they hurt worse than men hurt and they suffer much at men. That’s an acknowledged reality from the very beginning of the biblical story.

Rick:

To folks that don’t read the Bible on a regular basis or know much about what the Bible says when it comes to these kind of issues. What do you say to that large group in our country right now, obviously even within the church a large group, that has no biblical knowledge. What do you say to them about God’s stance and what the Bible’s message is regarding man’s responsibility in this sexualized culture that we have right now?

All Time Record Levels

Pastor Ken Graves:

It is a stated reality. It is a reality that– what you just said is proved out by all of– everybody from Barna, to Pew Research, that Christianity, American Christianity, is at an all time record level of Biblical un-literacy. Not illiteracy – not that they can’t read it, they just don’t. They’ve got it in every form, they’ve got on their– they can have it in their phone, their smartphone, or their device. It’s a sad reality that people aren’t reading it. That God has gone to great lengths of texting them and they have not opened the text.

Rick:

Wow.

Pastor Ken Graves:

But it is– the scripture does lay out a much greater responsibility and a greater accountability upon men as a gender. And upon fathers and upon husbands. It is reality that, as the son of God said, “To whom much is given much is expected, much is required.” And that applies too to manhood in that we are, in fact, given the advantage of physical strength.

I also would say that it is an advantage, that is, in a fallen world an advantage over women in that we are comparatively less emotional, comparatively insensitive. Which translates into cruelty in a fallen world, which is a terrible reality. Not the design of God, not how God intended his being, but it is the way God made us and we’ve taken that design into this arrangement.

It is truly, Rick, it is our duty as men, the scripture reveals to us that we have an obligation. I think about how many times the prophets would cry out for justice and justice to be done. And in that justice that oppression would end and that we would stand up for the oppressed. I really do believe it is the scripture and the entire message of scripture that calls men to the defense of women.

Rick:

And I’m assuming that means not just defending an immediate act or an attack, but defending the integrity of women, and defending the beauty of women, and not– looking for ways to remove this sexualization in the culture that takes advantage of women. In other words, we men need to be standing up and fighting for better laws, and a better culture, and a better entertainment culture, that doesn’t objectify women.

The Weaker Vessel

Pastor Ken Graves:

You nailed it. That’s exactly. If we apply the concepts that the prophet Isaiah lays out with regard to justice that is supposed to be, the justice that God calls for, longs for. Like he says in Isaiah 58 that, “Is not this the fast that I’ve chosen?” When God calls He’s like, Forget your silly fast and going without food. How about you fast from oppression?”

I really do believe that so much of what is happening in our culture is a reaction to the oppression. Unfortunately, it’s a godless reaction that brings women into a place of even further oppression. It’s a whole new kind of oppression when there is no such thing as any degree of chivalry. That there isn’t even any suggestion that they need to be stood up for, or that they need to be protected, or that they are in any way the weaker vessel. Weaker certainly doesn’t mean inferior – I should address that.

First Peter chapter 3, the Apostle Peter, talking about a husband and a wife, warns husbands. And he writes by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that a man will find himself in danger in his relationship with God. To the point where God will not even hear his prayers unless he gives honor to his wife as unto the weaker vessel, but a joint air. So, that play on words “honor as unto the weaker” that she is easily broken, she’s not inferior, but she’s more of a priceless piece of pottery vessel, a vessel that’s not for common and hard use, and she should be protected. Is that delicate vessel that is very costly that could be broken.

And I think it’s legitimate for us, Rick, to extrapolate that beyond the context that Peter speaks of in marriage into the whole of our culture. That women are suffering, and are victimized, and are hurt, and we need to honor them as being physically weaker and at least emotionally more easily hurt. Anybody who denies that reality is in clear rebellion against the revelation of God. Anyone who denies the reality that women feel more deeply, they are so much more emotional, and that means their hurt is so much greater.

I tell men all the time, “You know what, guys? You don’t even have any feelings comparatively speaking. You have tiny feelings that aren’t even worth talking about in comparison to what women live with every single day.”

Fast From Oppression

Rick:

What was it what was the phrase you used earlier about fasting from, not just fasting, but fasting from– what was the word you used?

Pastor Ken Graves:

Fasting from oppression.

Rick:

Oppression.

Pastor Ken Graves:

When God spoke through Isaiah He said, “How about this – instead of you’re giving up food and your religious ceremony, how about you give up oppression?” He had a long list, actually, and oppression was one of those.

Rick:

Well, when you said that my immediate thought was, “We’ve been really convicted lately about our entertainment choices. And movies or TV shows that do encourage the objectification and more sexualization of the culture. In fact, great articles from Matt Walsh and others recently on that in the church how poorly our decisions are made on that front.

Pastor Ken Graves:

Yeah.

Rick:

But when you said that it just made me think of that and think, “Yeah, how about that. We need to fast from a lot of our entertainment choices that are encouraging the oppression within the culture.”

Pastor Ken Graves:

Well, think about this one – 80 percent of the men in our Christian churches are regularly viewing pornography.

Rick:

Yeah.

A Sad Reality

Pastor Ken Graves:

80 percent. That’s a sad reality. Now, if we look at what the scripture says, you think about the whole second half of each one of Paul’s epistles where he calls us to action. He spends the first half of each epistle saying, “Here’s who God is and what God’s done for us.” Second half of the epistle – here’s what we should be doing. And in that section of what we ought to be doing he always says, “Stop doing this.” Take stealing – “Let him who steals steal no more.” But he doesn’t just stop there. He says, “Now, let him go work and earn so that he has something to give.”

He said, “Do not be drunk with wine, but rather be filled with the Spirit.” And it’s in that “but rather” section of the epistle that I think if we apply this, culturally speaking as Christian men, if a man has ever spent a single dollar in an industry that objectifies women, that men ought to be spending a dollar today in utter repentance and support of a ministry that gets women out of sex trafficking.

Rick:

So True.

Pastor Ken Graves:

That kind of gesture, I think, and being consistent. That we see one thing and we do the exact opposite. I think God has called us to stand up for women and to do it every which way we can.

Rick:

Oh, that’s powerful. That is so powerful, pastor. Even, there’s a friend of ours on the program, he speaks some of our conferences, Cliff Graham that does rescue missions in the sex trafficking industry. And he makes that point he says, “It’s not enough for men to say, ‘I’m just not going to do the bad.’–

Pastor Ken Graves:

Yeah.

Not Just Stopping the Bad, But Helping the Good

Rick:

“–They’ve got to get in the fight to do the good.” Which keeps them from the bad, but also, then, rescues and does good and helps. So, so, powerful. And then taking on that mindset there’s a great book called Clean by Dr. Doug Weiss.

Pastor Ken Graves:

Yes.

Rick:

And he talks in that book about men doing what we’re talking about today. Taking on the responsibility to protect every woman you come in contact with.

Pastor Ken Graves:

Yes.

Rick:

And that’s whether it’s online, or in your church, or in your community. But us as men saying, “We’re going to do our part to protect that young lady.” It could be an actress in Hollywood saying, “We’re not going to promote the objectification of that woman in that movie. Even if she chose to be in that situation, we’re not going to promote that. We’re going to protect her by not allowing our family’s dollars to go to–” Those are little action steps that every one of us can do to help turn the culture.

Pastor Ken Graves:

Yes. Amen. Amen, Rick.

Rick:

I love chatting with you, man. It gets me excited about going out there and making a difference. We’ve got to get you back more often, brother.

Pastor Ken Graves:

Any time.

And Still In the Will of God

Rick:

Great. Well, how’s it going in Maine? Tell us what you’ve got coming up before I let you go. What are you guys doing soon?

Pastor Ken Graves:

Well, right now winter in Maine will not quit. It just won’t let go. We’re just, we’re longing for summer up here, Rick. But when summer comes we’ve got plenty of ministry going on trying to reach the state. It is an interesting reality to be this far north and east. This is like as far north and east as you can go and still be in the will of God.

Rick:

*laughter* “And still in the will of God.” Okay, so don’t get in the boat and go even further is what you’re saying.

Pastor Ken Graves:

No.

Rick:

Yeah. Well, hey brother, we really appreciate having you on. Look forward to having you back again soon. Thanks for joining us today.

Pastor Ken Graves:

Grace and peace to you and all your listeners.

Rick:

Stay with us, folks. We’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Leadership Training Program

Rick:

Hey, friends! We’ve got a great program to share with you today. It’s the WallBuilders Leadership Training Program and it’s an opportunity for 18 to 25 year olds to come spend two weeks diving into the original documents we’re always talking about here on WallBuilders Live.

Tim, you’ve already been doing this a couple of summers and seen the results of young people coming to this program. We’re going to see more of them coming this year.

Tim:

Yeah, Rick, it’s something that’s been cool to see the transformation with young people coming in. The emphasis, for us, largely is a pursuit of truth. We have a culture that doesn’t know what truth is. We don’t know what biblical truth is, or constitutional truth, or the American heritage that we have. And so we really dive into original documents and say, “Well,, what did they actually write? What did they actually do? Not just what did somebody say, what is actually true, and the truth is what’s transformational.

David:

Yeah, guys. This really is a remarkable opportunity. And for those who want to spend time with us and spend time in the original documents, this is a great program. So,, if you’re from 18 to 25, or   someone who’s 18 to 25, send them to sign up for one of our three sessions this summer at WallBuilders.com/leadershiptraining.

Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks to Ken Graves for joining us today as well. We’re back with David and Tim Barton. Guys, you talked about how masculine he is going into the break before we had him on. How cool to have a guy that masculine talking about the role of men, and protecting women, and treating them right, and all of those things. This is the guy you ought to have in to teach a seminar on these kind of things. I love this guy.

Tim:

Well, and especially considering not only does he sound masculine, this is a really tough guy, but he understands and he explains so well biblical truth. It’s not that women are lesser vessels, but God has put something in men that we are supposed to be protectors of them because they are the more fragile in a priceless, valuable, kind of sense.

But we live in a culture today that looks down on that so much, this really, this kind of anti-feminist– they say they’re feminists and really what they’ve done is *. It’s made a culture where we’ve encouraged men not to treat women like women. And he did such a great job of pointing out, “No, this is man’s role to protect women.”

Now, this is obviously based on where we started with this conversation. This professor is advocating or explaining that he thinks the Bible is encouraging this rape culture.

Disconnected From the Real Life

David:

And by the way, I loved his response there where he said, “Some statements are so profoundly stupid that they can only come from a professor.”

Tim:

Yeah, from an academic, right. It’s sad, but oftentimes true. And certainly not all professors, not all academics, are dumb. Obviously it took work for them to get to where they are. But sometimes you spend so much time in this bubble of academia that you don’t even realize how disconnected you are from real life in the world.

And not that they’re bad people necessarily, although some of them we can look at and go, “Well, you’re promoting evil, so that’s not good at all what you are doing.” But in this case it really shows the ignorance of someone of the Bible who you think the Bible actually promotes a rape culture. Because this is exactly the opposite of what the Bible actually promotes.

Rick:

Yeah, zero evidence. Which he pointed out they make that claim in the headline, but then they don’t lay out any evidence to back that up.

Tim:

Yeah, and the examples they point to are examples where there was something that happened in the Bible, but they never talk about what happened after that happened. So, the person that actually did this inappropriate sexual act in the Bible,

how did God respond? How did the people respond to that? And this is–

What Were the Consequences for Generations?

Rick:

And what were the consequences for generations after that as a result?

Tim:

Without a doubt. This is where there is such a disconnect. Just because– and Rick, as you all pointed out right, just because the Bible actually reveals historically what happened doesn’t mean it’s condoning or endorsing that. But as you guys also mentioned, when you are just biblically illiterate, you don’t know what the Bible says, you also don’t know that it condemns bad behavior. Not only acknowledges that it did happen in times past in a fallen world, but also says it’s wrong and we should never do it.

Rape Culture, Does The Bible Produce And Promote Rape

David:

Well, I love, too, the point that he made and you guys are making about if you’ve done porn in the past, well now give money to organizations that find sex trafficking etc. And what that is is Romans 12:21. It says, “Don’t be overcome by evil, but overcome the evil with the good.” So, if you’ve done something bad you turn it around and go in the opposite direction, you replace it with good, you do the right things. That’s the proactive position to have.

Rick:

Such good teaching today. Thanks to Pastor Ken Graves for joining us today. We sure appreciate you as our listeners being a part of this program today. You can get more at our website – WallBuildersLive.com. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.