Refugee Crisis, Handling it With a Biblical Worldview
In this episode, we talk about what the Bible says about refugees and how we should handle the refugee problem. We talk with Bishop E.W. Jackson on his article, ” Christian Ethics And The Refugee Problem.” Bishop E.W Jackson has great wisdom on this topic. He really addresses this issue from a Biblical and common sense perspective. Tune in to listen to this episode and get some clarity on the refugee problem we have today.
Air Date: 06/26/2017
Bishop E.W. Jackson, David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton.
- WallBuilders | American historical events, founding fathers, historical documents, books, videos, CDs, tapes, David Barton’s speaking schedule.
- Christian Ethics And The Refugee Problem article
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Transcription note: As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.
You found your way to the intersection of faith and the culture, this is WallBuilders Live! Thanks for joining us today! We’re talking about today’s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture, all of it from Biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.
We’re here with David Barton, America’s premiere historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton with us today president of WallBuilders, national speaker, and author. And my name’s Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state rep, national speaker, and author.
Certainly, when we talk about faith and the culture that means a Biblical worldview, it means your faith is actually influencing your perspective and influencing your position on issues.
Is It Biblical To Judge Others
David, Tim, obviously sometimes we think we have a “Biblical worldview,” and we think we’re applying the Bible and get it right, but sometimes we’ve got these cultural norms and cultural ideas that are as far away as they could be away from the Bible and we claim it to be a Biblical position.
We really do, Rick. It’s one of the things that I actually rather enjoy talking to young millennials about with the Bible because they’ve grown up hearing what the Bible says or this Christian perspective. You can go the slew of things, “We’re not supposed to judge people. The Bible says don’t judge.” Oh, really? Explain to me where it says, “Don’t judge.” And of course, they don’t have any idea.
But what most of them reference- or think they’re quoting is from Matthew 7. But Matthew 7, that’s not really what Jesus said because after he says, “For the same measure of judgment you use it’s measured against you.” Jesus upheld the standard of measurement. He then says, “Watch out for those wolves that come in sheep’s clothing. Because if you’re not careful they’re going to get you.” And then he goes through, “And by their fruit you know them.” But he’s talking about there’s a measure of judgment you place on them.
But I even back up, what about Psalms one? “Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the path of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful.” So the Bible says that there are three people that you need to stay away from. How do you know who those people are and aren’t?
You better have some discernment. I think we call that, judging right?
We’ve Minimized The Meaning Of Love
Right. In the Bible, Proverbs, Solomon said that if you walk with the wise you become wise and a companion of fools suffers harm. So, I want to hang out with wise people, not foolish people. How do I know the difference between wise and foolish? I judge.
Paul wrote, “Don’t be deceived. Bad company corrupts good morals.” So I don’t want to hang out with bad company. How do I know who is bad company? I judge them.
Judging is something we do all day every day and yet for some reason, we’re going, “Whoa, you’re not supposed to judge people.” And it’s as if we’ve confused this whole judgment concept.
Let me make it even worse than that. Because 1 Corinthians 6:2 the scripture says, “Don’t you know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you’re to judge the world are you incompetent to judge trivial cases? Don’t you know that we will judge the angels? How much more the things of this life?”
Wait a minute, I thought Jesus said, “Don’t judge.” Now we’re being told we’re going to judge the world?
“Well, that’s just not very tolerant if we’re judging.” Which tolerance is another great example. Because we’re always told, “Jesus loved everybody.” You bet he loved everybody. But Jesus also called a bunch of people, “These white-washed brood of vipers. These pits of dry bones.” He called them some mean things. That’s not very tolerant.
Or the example a lot of people point to is, “With the woman caught in adultery, he was so tolerant.” You remember what he told her? “Go and sin no more.” So he was not tolerant of her behavior.
“Yeah, but he loved her.” Oh, absolutely he loved her. But that’s another word that’s confusing in our culture, love. Because today love is arguing that if you love someone you’re supposed to accept anything they do and any behavior whatsoever. And by the way, we’re even told now that if you love someone that’s what really sexual means. And if you love them that bridges a sexual gap. There isn’t any commitment, isn’t any marriage. “Because I love someone I should be able to be sexual with them.”
And we’re told, “If two women love each other who are we to judge how they love?” Well God defined what love was. And love was not a selfish gratification, love was a serving, and a giving, and doing. But we’ve minimized love to mean only what is an instinct of the flesh that we were told and crucify, that were told to put to death the deeds of the flesh. But this is this thought in modern culture, we take these words and we distort them to where they are not Biblical at all and yet we argue them as if they are Biblical.
What The Bible Says About War
Sounds like we need a vocabulary class. I mean, love, tolerance, and judge. It’s all about what do these words actually mean.
I actually had an example of this just a few weeks ago on Memorial Day because I was speaking at a very large church with multiple services. Memorial Day is to honor the 1.2 million who died in war in America across the number of our wars, 43 million vets, $18 million still alive today, 1.2 million died. Memorial Day is to honor those who died.
And so as part of that I showed a bunch of old sermons preached out of the pulpit on the war, “Here’s a sermon on war.” And then I said, “You know, for a lot of people that doesn’t compute today. And then I showed a number of peace rallies, “Here’s all these peace rallies and people marching.”
And I particularly loved the signs that appear in these peace rallies. Two that I highlighted out of one particular slide I had, one says, “God is love.” And another one, a really big one up front said, “Read the Bible.”
The notion is that God is love, if you read the Bible you’re not going to have any war, you’re going to stay out of war, you’ll be totally for peace. And I said, “Well, you know that’s what a lot of people think.” But let me just kind of read you some verses. So I read Isaiah 13:3 where God says. “I have commanded my holy ones. I have summoned my warriors. The Lord Almighty is mustering an army for war.” “Now wait, He can’t do that, He’s a God of love. If you read the Bible you won’t have war.”
Then I went to first Chronicles 5:22 where it says, “For there fell down many slain because the war was of God.” Oooh. “But wait, that’s old testament stuff. That’s not new testament.”Ok, let me go to Revelation 19:11. It says, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness, He judges and wages war.” That’s New Testament. That’s the end of the age
And by the way, that would be Jesus, Jesus coming back.
And we come back with him to judge and make war. That’s the 1 Corinthians. “Whew, That can’t be possible. Christians don’t do that.” And then I go through and show how many miracles in the Bible God performed to crush and defeat military enemies.
You can start with Exodus 14, God parted the Red Sea to crush and destroy the entire Egyptian army. You’ve got Exodus 17 were that as long as Moses kept his arms in the air Israel could defeat the Amalekites. And then you’ve got Joshua 6 where God knocked down the walls of Jericho so they could defeat the enemy. And Joshua 10 where God held the sun for an entire day so that Joshua could annihilate the enemy. You just keep going, and going, and going, and going.
What’s this deal about, “Well, if you’re a Christian you won’t be involved in war.” God does this all the time and it’s not because he loves wars because he hates evil. He wants righteous people to stop evil and sometimes you have to have war to stop the annihilation of Jews in the Holocaust, as we saw. Or our the slaughter of 10 million Chinese by Japan in World War II. Sometimes you have to have war to stop the evil.
And then what do you do with a verse like Psalm 144:1 where the Bible says, “God trains my fingers for battle and my hands for war.” “No, that can’t be, God is opposed to war.” Well, then why does he trained people and get them to be really good soldiers? He gifts some people the orators, and some people will be athletes, and some painters and he give some people to be great warriors, and soldiers.
So the basis of this is we get around to where that now we’re being told, “Well, if you’re a Christian, here’s the view you’ll have on immigration. And if you’re a Christian you don’t want closed borders. And if you’re Christian you want everybody to come in because Leviticus tells us to love the stranger.” People who think they have a Biblical view really don’t.
We’re going to talk later with Bishop E.W. Jackson who did a great article on the actual Biblical view of immigration what it is. And it’s not what a lot of people who espouse Biblical views actually understand.
And it’s a really hot topic within the church. There’s a lot of people on both sides of this issue in the church. Church leaders that are taking positions on this, so our position should not be, “What does a popular person say about this?” It should be, “What does the Bible say about it?” And that’s what Bishop Jackson will be sharing with us later. Quick break, we’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton first here on WallBuilders Live!
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Shouldn’t Christians Want Refugees So We Can Witness To Them
We’re back on WallBuilders Live, thanks for staying with us. Back with David and Tim Barton, and a little later we’ll have Bishop Jackson with us to talk about the ethics of this refugee issue. David, Tim, y’all were pointing out several examples of how people will claim, “Well, if you’re a Christian you do this, if you’re a Christian you do that.” This is certainly a big one, “If you’re a Christian you’re going to let all these refugees come in regardless because we’ve just got to love them and hope that God takes care of things.” Or I’ve heard this one a lot, “If you’re Christian you want to let all the refugees come in so we can witness to them.”
Right, and you know, any murderer needs to come to know Jesus. So if you’re a murderer I invite you to my house so I can share the gospel. That’s nuts, you don’t do that.
And not that at the position of, “We want to witness to the lost” is a bad position, that’s certainly a position we want to defend. It’s just an incredibly foolish position to say, “Hey, you know what, I know this guy is a pedophile but I’m going to invite him over to spend the night in my four-year old’s bedroom because I want to witness and share the love of Jesus with him.”
Those are two things that are kind of incompatible in what you are trying to accomplish. You are not protecting your child, you’re being a terrible parent in the name of Jesus as you’re trying to reach this person for Jesus.
The problem with this is it’s really sloppy Biblical exegesis. They’re saying, “In the name of Christ you need to do this stuff.” Alright, show me the Bible verses that give me examples of that being done. Show me the Bible verse that lines up with your interpretation of that and I’ll show you all the Bible verses that say that what you’re saying is exactly wrong and that’s where we are.
People use that Leviticus passage about how you treat the stranger among you because you were once strangers yourself.” Great, that’s what the Bible verse says, but that’s not the only verse in the Bible on immigration.
And when you start looking at all the others they’re very clear positions you have to take. But that’s again, where people who claim to be Biblical don’t really know much about what the Bible says.
But even the verse you mention, the strangers among you, the word “stranger” doesn’t mean what we think it means today. We falsely apply it to immigrants today not understanding that when the stranger in the Bible was someone who had to embrace all of the customs, had to follow all of the rules and all of the laws, which is not what we’re seeing with immigrants today.
It was essentially, if someone from another country comes among you and wants to live like a Jew and be like a Jew take him in. Because you went into Egyptian territory and lived as Egyptians and they took you in.
So, if you want to embrace their culture and their customs and what they are doing that’s what you did when you went to Egypt. And that’s exactly it. So it’s not just opening doors to anybody that wants to come. If they want to be part of you, be like you, and be one of you.
And the position of most Christians, and most might be an exaggeration, but probably not many Christians at least. Is that they know just enough to be inaccurately dangerous, but not enough to be accurate. And that’s why we come to these wrong conclusions because you have so much of the liberal leftist kind of arm of Christianity arguing in favor of things that aren’t Biblical. And we don’t have enough people to know what the Bible actually says to defend the position.
And what a dangerous time for that when, as our guest coming up calls it an “ideological civil war.” We’re at this point where we’re really trying to, I mean, there’s a battle for the heart and soul of America and what we really believe and what even Christianity means.
And like your saying Tim, to argue with there was just this shallow knowledge and not really looking into what these scriptures actually mean.
We need some wisdom and E.W. Jackson, Bishop Jackson had this great article called Christian Ethics and the Refugee Problem where he really addresses this issue from a Biblical perspective and just common sense like you are just saying, David. I mean, that’s what we don’t do is say, “Oh yeah, of course, we’re supposed to win people to Christ but it doesn’t mean you bring these people over and have them stay in your house if they’re a murderer or whatever it might be. So anyway, Bishop Jackson, excited to have him. He’s a pastor from the state of Virginia, also he was a candidate for lieutenant governor there, Bishop Jackson, our special guest today. Stay with us, you’re listening to WallBuilders Live.
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Getting Some Biblical Clarity
Welcome back, thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Our guests today is Bishop E.W Jackson, check out the website StandAmerica.US. We’ll have a link today at WallBuilders Live, to make it easy for you. Bishop Jackson, good to have you back.
Good to be back, thanks for inviting me.
Fantastic article on the whole refugee issue and Christian ethics topic. The Title is Christian Ethics and the Refugee Problem. And I got to tell you, Sir, nobody has articulated the Biblical position on this in response to the left as well as you do in this article. We need this clarity, this moral clarity, this Biblical clarity on what has been a tough issue, hotly debated in our country today.
Look, I really appreciate that. I was moved to write it because of course there were a lot of accusations flying around that we so-called Christians were being very un-Christian when it came to the refugee problem.
And I really got to thinking about that, “Lord, what is our proper response?” I viscerally understand what I think we ought to be doing but I wanted to say it in a way that I thought others would understand too.
Well, I appreciate what you put out and I think everybody needs to read this article. So I really do encourage them to go to the link today and get the article itself and we’ll try to cover as much as we can of the few minutes we’ve got.
When The Left Starts Complaining About The Rights Biblical View
But let’s just start with this idea, the left or right now is saying- even for the left, as you point out- I love the way you put this because it’s so true, we should wake up when we see this. You said, “When the left starts appealing to Christian morality it’s worth taking note.”
So it’s kind of like, ok, we better be aware with our antennas up. If they’re telling us to be more Christ-like, and as you point out, wait a minute these are the same people that have been pushing Christ out of our country for 50 years.
Oh look, they hate everything Christians express pretty much. They certainly hate everything we have to say about sexual morality, everything we have to say about limitations on government, First Amendment rights, and religious liberty. But all of a sudden they are Christian emphasis advising us on how we should be behaving.
So I thought, yeah, that’s really worth noting, I don’t know whether that was just desperation on their part or whether it’s just another opportunity to ding the Christian community, to show, “Yeah, we’re just a bunch of hypocrites anyway.” But the reality is we’re on the right side of the issue.
That’s right. And that’s what you point out, you say, “look there’s no Biblical case for opening the floodgates to refugees infiltrated by Islamic terrorists.” And then you get to the heart of the matter which is where I think we’ve actually struggled as a Christian community for the last few years in responding to this issue. You say, “Some Americans are making the dangerous mistake of applying Biblical principles of personal morality to matters of national security.” Explain that part.
Personal Ethics Versus National Security
Yeah, Look, it’s a very simple matter when you come right down to it. You can’t extrapolate from what God expects of us individually and then apply that to a nation. Because for example when Jesus said to turn the other cheek, love your enemies, pray for those who despitefully use you, would you want to extrapolate and say, “Well, if somebody bombs an American city we should not retaliate, respond, defend ourselves, we should just simply go into our churches and pray for them.”
Obviously, any sane person knows that not only would that not make any sense, but it would be downright irresponsible because we would be putting at risk the lives of every single American and that is not at all what God expects of us. Personal ethics don’t apply to matters of national policy, at least not when it comes to national security.
And you point that out in a personal way too, when you say, “You wouldn’t apply your personal ethic of turning the other cheek to national security any more than you would the security of your spouse or child.” So if your kid is being beaten up on or your wife being attacked you say, “Oh honey, just turn the other cheek.” That’s ridiculous.
And not only would you not say that, I think you would be very displeasing to God to say something like that. Because God would say to you, “Wait a minute, I’ve given you your wife. I’ve given you your family. It is your job to protect and defend them. What’s wrong with you.” You know? Yeah, it wouldn’t make any sense at all.
The Government is Compulsive, Not Compassionate
So the same thing applies when you consider matters of national security. Just like the big story that just broke about some gang, chanting episode MS-13 attacking and robbing a man in New York City. Well, we know many of this M-S 13 crew comes from South America, Mexico and beyond.
You can’t say, “Oh, well, they just beat up and robbed a man and almost killed him. Let’s just forgive them.” No, you’ve got to arrest them, you’ve got to incarcerate them, you’ve got to deport them.
Well, you point out a very important principle here because it’s not only like a national security issue, we do the same thing when it comes to even taking care of the poor. We’ve tried to put that off on the government and say, “Oh, we’re doing the Biblical thing.” When the reason it doesn’t work when government tries to do it is because that’s not how Jesus told us to do it. It’s supposed to be us doing it as individuals, so we’ve misapplied the principle.
Yeah, absolutely right. Government can’t be compassionate because it has no money to be compassionate with. When it comes to social welfare all government can do is take from some and give to others on the basis of its purported superior wisdom. That’s not compassion that’s compulsion.
When you and I help someone out of the goodness of our heart that is pleasing God, that is Christian morality, because we are doing it voluntarily, not under any government edict, or order, but because we know it’s the right thing to do in our hearts.
So you just can’t. Frankly, this whole thing of redistribution is really theft when you come right down to it and the other is giving, and those are two different things.
America Is Indeed A Christian Nation
Before you go, you make several other great points, we can’t cover them all, but one of the other ones was where they are saying, “Well, Jesus was a refugee.” And as you point out, they must be referring to when t his family escaped during the infanticide of Herod. But you also point out you say, “Look, that’s kind of ironic since they’re trying to kick Jesus out of America right now.”
That’s right. You know, Jesus is whatever they need Him to be for their own political agenda. The reality is that Mary, and Joseph, and Jesus, did not have to go through customs, they did not have to pass any security check, the boundaries of nations were loose and fluid. They went down into Egypt probably somewhere just across the border to just hang out there for a while until they felt it was safe to come back. That’s not like large numbers of people literally flooding your country and bringing in all kinds of dangerous people, drugs, and a whole lot of other stuff with them.
That’s so obvious that even a fool ought to be able to see that. But I guess when it comes to people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson they don’t qualify to see it.
That’s right. Well, the full article will be on a link at our website today and of course StandAmerica.us is where you can go and get on Bishop Jackson’s e-mail list and get his articles there as well. So we encourage you to do that.
And Bishop, you close the article out making the point that even the left by appealing to Biblical principle has unwittingly admitted that America is indeed a nation of Christian values. So we appreciate them at least making that point.
And isn’t it great that we see so many Americans? They are moved by the argument to live by Christian principles. Which means there’s hope. We’ve still got a good foundation there, which we need to make sure they’re being taught the truth about those Biblical principles.
Aman. We need a full acknowledgment. And I’m so glad this new president acknowledges that America is culturally a Christian country, and we are. And if we ever lose that, we lose America as we know it.
So this pseudo application of Christian principle when it’s convenient won’t work. What we’ve got to do is have a full-throated expression and a heartfelt acceptance of the fact that we are in fact a Christian nation, culturally, embrace those values, because therein lies the future of our country.
Aman. Appreciate your time, appreciate the article, look forward to getting you back.
Thank you, my friend. God bless you.
That’s E.W. Bishop Jackson, stay with us folks will be right back with David and Tim Barton.
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God Has Given Many Jurisdictions
Welcome back to WallBuilders Live, thanks for staying with us. And thanks to Bishop Jackson for joining us today as well. Guys, there’s that clarity we were talking about. The actual application of Biblical truth and not just trying to use Biblical language like you were saying, Tim, in a shallow way, wading out and these cultural issues.
He also was so key on and saying that you can’t extrapolate what God says to an individual and apply it to the nation. Just because God tells you to forgive individually that’s not what he does for a nation, he says, “Nation bears the sword. Government bears the sword to execute justice.”
And the reason for that is because God made several different institutions. God will tell the family to do something different then God tells the government to do, then something different than God tells a church to do, God gave them each different responsibilities and jurisdiction.
Even, within that, God tells the church and the family to take care of the poor. He does not tell the government to take care of the poor. People often quote Matthew 25, “Jesus said If you do at least one-” No, he told his disciples if you do it. He didn’t tell Herod, he didn’t tell Caesar, that if you do it. There are clear jurisdiction’s distinctions, you’re exactly right, Tim.
And this is something that it again, is confused in our culture because we don’t understand enough Biblical depth to know that God made these different institutions, different challenges, for all of them.
I love what Bishop Jackson said, “Anytime the other side, the left, is telling us that we need to be more Christian. You can just know that’s kind of a danger. It’s your warning sign, your flags, saying ‘woah something’s wrong.’”
If they’re wanting us to be Christians something is up.
Yeah, because these are the guys that fight hardest against us being Christians. They don’t want us to be Christians in high schools, they don’t have Bibles, or have prayer graduation, they don’t want prayer in the military or Bibles in the military. They fight everything that is Christian.
But one of the things he pointed out is that they just kind of used Jesus, however, he’s the most convenient for them. So they don’t take it truth they stand on, they just kind of mold Jesus like the old Gumby doll. “However He fits best, that’s I want to use Him.” Which is certainly not what Biblical truth is about.
Thanks for listening today folks, you’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live!