Sanctuary Cities, Are They Biblical?: It’s Foundations of Freedom Thursday, a special day of the week where we get to answer questions from you, the listeners! Always answering from constitutional and foundational principles! Tune in today as we answer your questions such as, how did the word “€œsanctuary”€ come into our vernacular?  Can President Trump fire all Obama appointees?  Is Soros Using Sedition?  And so much more, right here on WallBuilders Live!  

Air Date: 3/30/2017

Guests: David Barton and Rick Green


  • WallBuilders | American historical events, founding fathers, historical documents, books, videos, CDs, tapes, David Barton’s speaking schedule.

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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast.  However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers.  Additionally, names may be misspelled because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Welcome

President Thomas Jefferson said, “€œ I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves. And if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.”€

Rick:

Welcome to WallBuilders Live on this Foundations of Freedom Thursday.  It’s the intersection of faith and the culture. We’re talking about today’s hottest topics on faith and policy and all these things and how they intersect with our lives throughout the culture. Always doing it from a Biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton.  He’s America’s premiere historian and our founder here at WallBuilders.  My name is Rick Green.  I’m a former Texas rep, a national speaker, and author.

Our WallBuilders organization is a national pro-family organization where presenting America’s forgotten history and heroes with an emphasis on our religious, moral, and constitutional heritage.

You can find out more about the radio program at WallBuildersLive.com and the ministry in general at WallBuilders.com. And by the way, the radio website, go check it out. You can look at all the different stations we’re on around the country and get some latest news, articles, and that sort of thing.

You can also get more of these Thursday programs. The reason we call it, “€œFoundations of Freedom Thursday”€ is it’s a chance for you to ask questions about some of these foundational principles.

Maybe you had a question about the Founding Fathers, the Declaration, the Constitution, maybe application of those things to a particular issue that’s happening right now in the culture. You can do that by sending your emails to radio@WallBuilders.com.

Where Did This Word Sanctuary Come

David, Foundations of Freedom is always a great chance not just for our audience to learn, you and I get to learn a lot of stuff as we get these questions. Sometimes it’s an area we haven’t studied, get go catch up on something that maybe hasn’t been in the spotlight lately.

David:

It’s great because it does, as you say, give us a chance to learn new things ourself and we get to share those with others. That’s always been the objective of any individuals to continue learning. Just because you get out of school, don’t walk away say, “€œBoy, I’m done with learning.”€ That’s not a good position to have. The Bible says it’s a good thing to have knowledge, to seek after knowledge, and so questions are a great way to help us grow as well.

Rick:

Certainly, always looking for truth, it’s not just to win arguments. Not just going to try to find things that backup what we believe. We want to know truth. We want to be able to to seek the truth. That’s why we look at history because we can see the evidence of what works or doesn’t work. It just puts it in the right perspective.

Question From Carlos:

I”€™m going to jump into our first question. David, it comes from Carlos.  He said that he did a search on our website because we”€™ve got so many of those founding documents and sermons. He said he did a search for sanctuary and couldn’t find anything on the origin of sanctuary city.

He did find one of our programs with Congressman Louie Gohmert where he talked about it a little bit. He said in his email, “€œThe Bible describes sanctuary as, “€˜God’s dwelling place.”€™ I’m curious to know when in U.S. history was this term introduced? Aside from a Google search, what resource do you recommend on learning more about this topic. In the foreseeable future will there be a radio broadcast on this topic? From a faithful listener in Los Angeles California.”€ That’s from Carlos.

Carlos, great question! And the answer, yes. We”€™re doing a radio program on it right now.  So, David, sanctuary city, where did the word “€œsanctuary”€ come into our vernacular?

The Noahide Law

David:

Well, let’s back up because before we get to U.S. history we have to back way up. We”€™ve got to go back to how the first sanctuary cities got started.  They were started in ancient Israel.

That was part of a Hebrew tradition that dealt with criminal justice policies. You go back to the first civil government ever established was that of Noah. Prior to Noah, there were no horizontal laws for what you do with murders, or what you do with these, or what you do with private property protection or anything else.

The Founding Fathers lay this out so well. What happened was, the Founding Fathers articulated in the Declaration that there is a creator.  The creator, God, gives us a certain set of inalienable rights, and government exists to protect those rights.

According to John Adams and other Founding Fathers such as Alexander Hamilton and John Dickerson, etc, inalienable rights are the rights that God gave to you that did not come from any government.

And as John Adams said, “€œThey are the rights that God gave before government ever existed.”€ Well, the first time that government existed is in Genesis 9.  It’s after the flood. Noah and his family get off the ark and God says, “€œOk, here’s the deal, Noah.  Let’s start with law number one.”€ That’s the first time you ever get horizontal laws from God.  This is what’s called, “€œThe Noahide Law.”€ Seven categories of civil laws.

The first one and Genesis 9:6 says, “€œAlright Noah, whoever sheds man’s blood, whoever kills someone, whoever murders someone, whoever sheds innocent blood, by him will man be killed.”€ In other words, we don’t have government per se. But here’s the deal, if someone sheds innocent blood, if they murder someone else, you take them out.

And that was a command to all population at the time. What you have is, God had given the inalienable right to life. Our Founding Fathers said that’s the first of all inalienable rights.

Our Inalienable Right To Life And Private Property

Then Cain violates the inhalable right to life of Abel.  He kills him. It spread throughout the culture and pretty soon everybody’s ignoring everybody else’s rights. You”€™ve got murder, death, and rape. So, God says, “€œLet’s just wipe this out and started again.”€

So, when you come back after the flood with a new beginning civilization, this time God says, “€œNow, let’s lay some laws out there. Here’s why we need civil government, it”€™s to protect your inalienable rights.”€ Which is what the Founding Fathers said in the Declaration. So, the first law given is a law to protect the inalienable right to life.

The second law given by God in the Noahide Laws is to protect the inalienable right to private property, and own through goes. So, with that general framework, there is no government per se. But, you now have the authority from God to execute civil justice and make sure that inalienable rights are protected, right to life, right property, etc.

So, with that, as John Locke talks about in the famous Two Treatises of Government, our Founding Fathers loved that work. I’m doing an annotated version of it right now and it is so cool.

He goes there and he says, “€œBack there at that point in time, if someone was murdered, you as a citizen and had the authority to take out the murderer.”€ Now, you couldn’t kill just anybody, but you could kill a murderer because you don’t allow people who violate inalienable rights to get away without being punished. You have to have civil justice.  

Then, when God brings a nation into existence, he brings to the nation of Israel into existence. He then gets them away from Pharaoh, away from Egypt, and he gets them out in the middle of the desert and says, “€œOk, let’s stop right here. Nobody’s chasing you. You don’t know where you’re going. So you’ve got plenty of time, so let’s just build a nation right here.”€

That’s where he goes through and lays out the law for the nation, 613 civil laws that he gives at that point in time. As he gives them, part of what happens is they set up the first cities of refuge or the first sanctuary cities.

What happened was, if you murdered someone, if you shed innocent blood, then you’re going to get taken out. That’s just the law that God established with Noah. And that’s still the law of nations. That’s where capital punishment comes from.

So that’s what’s going to happen. But what if you kill someone accidentally?

Rick:

Unintentional.

David:

Unintentional. An accidental death because of a machine or accidental death because your ox got loose and gored a neighbor or something else. What do you do with those kinds of things?

Rick:

What we might even call it an involuntary manslaughter. Today, a car wreck that you didn’t intend to kill him, but maybe you were negligent.

David:

Now, you get into the old west and the hillbilly days you had blood feuds. “€œWell, you killed my family so I’m going to kill your family.”€ And so what happens is, you get this blood feud kind of stuff going. But God says, “€œNo, we’re going to have cities of refuge. If you accidentally killed someone. You can go to the city of refuge.”€ And what he calls the “€œavenger of blood”€ cannot come to you there.

In other words, a family member who said, “€œI’m going to make it even. You killed my father, my sister, my brother.”  You can go to the city of refuge, the sanctuary city, and as long as you reside there you are safe.”€ No one can come in and get you, no avenger of blood can get you. The family feud is off. You’re in a you’re in a sanctuary city. You’re in a safe city.

Rick:

But that sounds like something that’s set up by the law and the law says, “€œYou can’t go into that place and get them.”€ So, it’s not like some people within the community say, “€œWe don’t like the law so we’re going to go set up this city of refuge for people that want to break the law.”€

Fugitive Slave Law

David:

That’s right. It was exactly for that. The other refuge you had was when you fled there for mercy.  You came there for mercy. For example, if you were a civil leader and there was an insurrection, you could flee to the temple and grab the horns of the altar.

At the horns of the altar, you could plead for mercy. And so you’ll find that throughout history there were civil leaders who did that.  They’d go there and plead. So, if you’re in the temple it’s like a sanctuary and you can you can ask for mercy there.

That’s kind of what happened in the 1980″€™s here in America. You had all the communist oppression, Nicaragua, everywhere else, people were fleeing to America to get away from the communist oppression.

And the immigration laws didn’t let you come in. So, a number of Catholic churches particularly would take them in these sanctuary type havens. They would take these refugees in to care for them because they’re fleeing for their life. They’re trying to protect their life.  It’s not a matter of economic fleeing, “€œI want a greater income for me and my family. I want to leave poverty.”€ They were fleeing for their life. They were on the wrong side of that battle.

So, in the 80s you had some sanctuary churches. But that has been a traditional role of the church. If you were in, for example, even when we were fighting the Muslim nations back in the first war on terror, it was set up by treaties that you could flee as a Christian.

If you’re in a Muslim country you could flee to the U.S. embassy and that was a sanctuary. It was a place where the Muslims would not go get you. And if you are in a Christian country same thing Muslims could go there, if you are in Spain, or in France, or whatever. And so you could go to an embassy and have a place of sanctuary, a place of refuge.

But the new notion now of a sanctuary city where you can come because you disagree with a law, that’s a new notion. That doesn’t appear in American history per se. There were sanctuary cities back in the 1940s and 50s. For example, Boston was a sanctuary city to get away from the onerous Fugitive Slave law. The Fugitive Slave law literally took away your rights of freedom, literally took away your constitutional rights of justice.

Rick, you’re as white as I am, but I could have been a guy in Georgia that had a plantation. I needed more slaves for my plantation.  You live in Boston.  You’ve never been a slave in your life. I simply walk up to you and say, “€œRick Green, you’re my former slave.”€ At that point for me having done nothing but say that, at that point you lose your right to trial by jury. You lose your right to habeas corpus and you lose your right to have an attorney defend you. Simply because I claimed that you were my former slave.

Rick:

It just wiped out everything.

David:

It wiped out your constitutional rights. So, Boston became a haven for those fleeing the Fugitive Slave law, which was an onerous pro-slavery law. And by the way, the law was so onerous that the federal magistrates were told, “€œWhen Rick comes to court if you rule that Rick used to be my former slave then the federal government will pay you ten bucks for that ruling. Now if you rule that Rick was not David’s former slave then you only get five bucks for that ruling.”€ So we even paid them to come up with the wrong answers.

I think there was only one court case as I recall where the court went against the Fugitive Slave law. Everybody else they ruled for him because they got more money for it.

So, that’s a sanctuary city per se, but it was not called that. The Underground Railroad becomes a sanctuary to get away from that Fugitive Slave Law. And that’s where the Underground Railroad got started.

We’ve Never Had This In History

So, it is an act of civil disobedience based on God’s law, not based on a law I do or don’t like.  But it’s based on God’s laws and on the Constitution. What we have today is, “€œI don’t like immigration policy at all.”€ Now, it’s enacted that had been enforced by both Democrat and Republican presidents, been upheld in every court until Trump.  It was ok for Democrat and Republican presidents both.  It’s okay for Obama to have used it, but “€œI don’t like it when Trump’s going to use it. So we’ll stop it.”€

By the way, we have 300 cities that were telling you, “€œWe don’t care what the federal law says, you can come here. You can vote here.  You can have a driver’s license here.  You can have all the public services you want. We don’t require you to be a citizen. We just disagree with the whole immigration thing. I think we all ought to be one nation in the whole world.  We’re globalist. And so come here.”€ That’s new. We’ve never had that in history.

So, the origin of sanctuary city in U.S. history is really pretty new. Even Boston didn’t call itself a sanctuary city but it kind of acted that way. But it really goes back to the Biblical precept of a place where that justice is going to be executed and mercy is going to be executed according to justice. 

You’re not going to get killed by a family feud. You can be here because the involuntary manslaughter, that’s not shedding innocent blood, so we will protect you. Or, if you’re flamed from an overthrow then you can go to the temple to the altar to a church and seek sanctuary. The sanctuary city as we know it now, that’s a brand new thing.

Rick:

Carlos, that’s a great answer to your question. Thanks for sending in your question, folks. If you’ve got a question for David about the Constitution or Declaration or some of our laws today. Send it into radio@WallBuilders.com . We’re going to take a break.  We’ll be right back on WallBuilders Live!

outro:

President Calvin Coolidge said, “€œThe more I study the Constitution, the more I realize that no other document devised by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity. To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.”€

Moment From American History

This is Tim Barton with another moment from American history. As the American war for independence began, the president of Yale was the Reverend Naphtali Daggett. When New Haven, the home of Yale, came under attack about a hundred citizens rushed out to meet the British.

The Reverend Daggett galloped by them on horseback, his clearable robes flowing behind him in the wind. He took up a solitary position atop a hill. The twenty-five hundred British soon put the townsfolk to flight but the Reverend Daggett continued to stand alone firing down on the advancing troops.

A British officer confronted him, “€œWhat are you doing there you old fool? If I let you go, will you ever fire again on the troops of his majesty?”€Â 

“Nothing more likely,” was the preacher’s reply. America’s early pastors personally confronted danger and courageously led their communities.  For more information on Pastor Daggett and other colonial Patriots, go to WallBuilders.com

Can President Trump Fire All Obama Appointees

Intro:

Samuel Adams said, “€œThe liberties of our country and the freedom of our civil Constitution are worth defending against hazards. And it is our duty to defend them against all attacks.”€

Question from Middlebury, Connecticut.

Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live, Foundations of Freedom Thursday today. Our next question comes from Middlebury, Connecticut. The question is, “€œIs it sedition, what Obama and Soros are trying to do to President Trump? Would it be possible, for we the people, to stop them lawfully? And can President Trump fire all Obama appointees?”€

I like that last question. Basically, can we stop Obama from undermining President Trump? David, that last one is a great one for just understanding which ones served the will of the president, that sort of thing, but go for it, Bro.

David:

Well, let’s take that the easiest question first, or at least the shortest question first. “€œCan President Trump fire all Obama appointees?”€ Absolutely, emphatically, yes. Anyone that serves at the will of the president usually has about 4,000 schedule C employees. They can be gone.

Just as they went into the Justice Department said, “€œAll of you guys that are prosecutors appointed by President Obama, you’re out of here.”€ What was that? 46, or 54?  Or whatever it was

He can fire every one of them at the Justice Department, which he did.

Rick:

And no different than what Obama did whenever he came into office and replaced Bush’s appointees.

David:

Right, and that’s why you should have the authority to do that. You should have the authority to fire more than that.  Because the Civil Service Act you’re not allowed to fire people for incompetence.  You have to keep incompetent people. So anybody they can’t get a job with the real world, if you apply with the federal government they will accept you.

Rick:

Then you’ve got a job for life pretty much.

David:

You”€™ve got a job for life no matter how incompetent you are. You remember all the thousands of people who were killed as a result of the incompetence of the VA? Only one person got fired out of that.

We lost the secretary of the V.A. who was not even responsible for it, but he’s at the top so he’s a chopping block. Understandable, from a PR standpoint, but all the stuff that was going on underneath, nobody paid a price for that.  One person lost her job.

We’ve talked before about how bad it is when you have civil service, tenured kind of contracts you can’t hold people accountable for performance, and that’s the problem with tenured professors.

Once they get tenured they decide they want to stop teaching, you still gotta pay them. They decide they want to do their own stuff, you still gotta pay them. So they’re no longer accountable. That’s why in New York City they have that rubber room with I think 600 teachers where they pay 600 teachers not to teach.

Rick:

That”€™s unbelievable.

David:

It’s unbelievable.

Rick:

These are people that did pretty egregious things, yet, here we are paying them to sit around.

What Happens In A Change Of Administrations

David:

Yeah, there was drug dealing, there was child abuse, and there was other stuff. It’s easier to pay them their salary than it is to go through the civil service process. So, that is one of the things that really ought to be changed. And that’s what happens when you let unions take over and run a town like DC.

You also have the Davis-Bacon Act which says, “€œI don’t care how cheap you can do the road  or if the price is better, you’re going to pay union wages.”€™”€   What is it, 6 or 9 percent of the nation is union? But 100 percent of government contracts are going to be paid at union wages which can be two to three times as much. Not because the quality is two to three times better but because that’s what the government has done is allowed itself to be run by unions over previous years.

So, those are things that need to be changed, but the president can’t change those. That’s going to take Congress to make those changes and those are changes that do need to occur. But in the meantime, he can ask for the resignation of any secretary, any appointed secretary as he went in.

Even at the early part of administration he fired two of the top officials in the Justice Department for what they were doing.  He could do all of that. There are four thousand of those positions that he can do that with. Generally, the deal is that when you change administrations those 4000 people generally turn in their resignations and you can accept them or not accept them. If there is somebody you decide you wanted to keep you can do that. But everybody tenders a resignation. But if they don’t do that you just go through and fire them

Rick:

Like you said, every president should have the right to do that because you’re electing not just the president but a philosophy for the entire executive branch. And so, of course, President Trump has done a lot of that and brought in his people. And that takes time too, probably takes the whole first year of a of a presidency  to get all your people in place. Not just those Cabinet level positions but all the way down. So no doubt, he has done that, and should do that, and it will take take a while for him to get get those people in place.

We”€™ve got to take a quick break.  We’ll come back and get the rest of this question from Middlebury, Connecticut. Stay with us.  You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

Outro:

President Calvin Coolidge said, “€œThe more I study the Constitution, the more I realize that no other document devised by the hand of man has brought so much progress and happiness to humanity. To live under the American Constitution is the greatest political privilege that was ever accorded to the human race.”€

Bring A Speaker To Your Area

Tim:

Hey, this is Tim Barton with WallBuilders.  And as you’ve had the opportunity to listen to WallBuilders Live, you’ve probably heard a wealth of information about our nation, about our spiritual heritage, about the religious liberties, and about all the things that make America exceptional. And you might be thinking, “€œAs incredible as this information is, I wish there was a way that I could get one of the WallBuilders guys to come to my area and share with my group.”€

Whether it be a church, whether it be a Christian school, or public school, or some political event, or activity, if you’re interested in having a WallBuilders speaker come to your area, you can get on our website at www.WallBuilders.com and there’s a tab for scheduling. If you”€™ll click on that tab, you’ll notice there’s a list of information from speakers bio’s, to events that are already going on. And there’s a section where you can request an event, to bring this information about who we are, where we came from, our religious liberties, and freedoms. Go to the WallBuilders website and bring a speaker to your area.

Intro:

Abraham Lincoln said, “€œWe the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts. Not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”€

Is Soros Using Sedition

Rick:

Welcome back.  Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live, Foundations of Freedom Thursday. We’re sort of in the middle of a question.  This one comes from Elda in Middlebury, Connecticut.

First part of a question, David, that we answered was, “€œCan the president fire previous appointees?”  The other part of the question had to do with it, “€œWhen is it sedition?”€  Basically, how much can Obama and Soros and others try to undermine the president before it becomes that? And what can we the people do about it?

David:

Let’s define “€œsedition”€ and I like going to Black’s Dictionary. It’s not the oldest law dictionary but it’s a fairly old one and it’s still a fairly traditional dictionary. It says, “€œSedition is attempts made by meetings, speeches, or publications to disturb the tranquility of the state.”€ In other words, you’re trying to stir up riots, you’re trying to stir up trouble, trying to stir up insurrection, that is sedition.

Obviously, that is going on. I was just today with a good friend of mine who every week sits in on the Soros phone calls. They have about 30,000 people a week on there. “€œAlright, here’s what we target next week. Go to congressional meetings and disrupt all the congressional meetings you have.”€ When they have town hall meetings as we saw with Senator Cassidy over in Louisiana, “€œBreak it up, make it really rough. Don’t let the guy speak.”€

So, 30,000 a week are getting their marching orders, they take it back to their groups which are more than 30,000 but that’s what’s on the phone call every week. So yes, that’s sedition. They’re trying to disrupt, they’re trying to create a hostile climate, a hostile environment.

They’re trying to do that. But there’s a difference between sedition and treason. And treason is when you actually use that unrest to lead to direct violence against the laws or the overthrow of the Constitution.

So, when you take it out of just words and incitement and loose actions into trying to deliberately overthrow the Constitution by the use of violence, that’s where we draw the lines.

Sedition is not necessarily the problem. This is a law that goes back all the way to Thomas Jefferson. For those that like the concept of nullification, we talked about that a number of times, the way people are pushing nullification day is not right. You cannot have a state just nullify a law.

Nullification, as proposed by Jefferson and Madison back in 1798, do what are called the Kentucky and Virginia resolution said, “€œHey, let’s get all the states together and we’re going to tell the federal government they’re out of line here.”€

What happened was, John Adams and the Federalist Congress passed an alien Sedition Act and it was really because of the Chua’s war that was going on with France. We had French officials in America trying to stir up Americans to protest President Adams and to try to get rid of President Adams.

So, you had a foreign power coming in and doing that. And so what they did was they passed the Alien Sedition Act. And that’s part of what’s called x, y, z, and etc. So, they pass the Alien Sedition Act to stop that kind of foreign influence. But they then used that act to go after anybody who criticized President Adams. And so that’s where you had James T Callander who was thrown in jail, others were thrown, American citizens thrown in jail because they were writing things against the president.

And so when Jefferson got in office he freed every person in prison under that act. He said, “€œYou don’t do that. That’s a violation of free speech.”€ Just because they criticize you and don’t like you and want to do something about you, you don’t throw them in jail.” 

And so since that time, that’s pretty much been the policy of the United States is, “€œYeah, you can do sedition but when you get to treason and you actually lead to action that that goes to the overthrow, that’s a problem.”€

So the way you deal with Soros and Obama is sunlight.  You keep putting sunlight on there. Most people don’t like to think that others are manipulating the strings. Bill Bennett used to say, “€œSunlight’s the best disinfectant.”€Â 

You also keep our people educated as to what’s happening and say, “€œif you want a solid Republican form of government rather run by a billionaire elite.”€– Actually probably a couple of billionaire elites I don’t think Obama actually has that much, but I think he has that much at his disposal. “€œIf you don’t like being run by wealthy elites then you need to stand up and say, “€˜Hey, we’re not going to put up with this.”€ And it’s just our side rising up.

That’s what happened, the people rose up, got behind Thomas Jefferson, put Jefferson in office. Jefferson changed those policies and really stopped the sedition movement as it were. And that’s the easiest way to do it, a political fix.

So, you don’t need the law to do it. You need to use the Constitution to do it and that’s the right way to do it.  It”€™s the way Jefferson did it.

Rick:

And everybody can be a part of that sunlight. When you hear these stories or you see some of this exposed you can share that on your Facebook page or you know even just talking to people. Don’t be afraid to talk about this stuff and let people know, “€œHey, look, these things are here and here”€™s the information.”€ I mean what is it? 90 percent of the news stories out of CNN and others against Trump is negative?

David

Ninety-one percent.

Rick:

Unbelievable, so, everybody out there listening, you can be a part of getting the good news out. And part of that is these Foundation of Freedom Thursdays, getting the truth about where we came from and these Foundational Freedoms. So, share these radio programs with your friends and keep listening in every day. Thanks for listening today to WallBuilders Live!

Thomas Jefferson:

Thomas Jefferson said, “€œThe Constitution of most of our states and of the United States asserts that all power is inherent in the people that they may exercise it by themselves that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. That they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press.”€