Sexual Misconduct Allegations, Should We Be Surprised?:Â In this episode, we interview Dr. Everett Piper on hisÂ article titled, “Reports of Sexual Misconduct Should Not Be a Surprise.”Â The solution to the problems we are seeing today starts with fixing the root issue. We need to teach this generation about foundational truths and morals. For years, our schools have mocked morality. Why are we now shocked to find we live in a society that has no understanding of personal morality?
Air Date:Â 01/29/2018
Guest: Dr.Â Everett Piper
On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton
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Transcription note: Â As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.
Faith And The Culture
Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we talk about today”s hottest topics on policy, faith, and other areas of the culture. Always addressing them from a Biblical, historical, and Constitutional perspective.
Today we”re with David Barton, America’s premier historian and the founder of WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker, pastor, and president of WallBuilders. And my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator.
You can find out more about us and the program at our two websites, WallBuildersLive.com is the radio website. Get a list of our stations there, archives of the program over the last few weeks, and other materials. And then at WallBuilders.com, that’s our main website, a lot of great information and tools for you to equip and inspire your family and get educated on these very important topics.
Reaping What We”ve Sown
Tim’s out on the road teaching at a college this week, but still calling in to be with us today. Later in the program we’ll have Dr. Everett Piper with us. He’ll be talking about the fact that we’re actually reaping what we’ve sown and, guys, let’s talk about what we’re reaping right now. We’ve got sex scandals and sexual harassment in virtually every area of the culture right now from Hollywood to Washington D.C., literally coast to coast.
Rick, one of the interesting things about human nature is that we have the capacity to be able to tune out certain things. You can get around music and you can tune it out and it’s kind of background noise to you. You can get around a drum and you can tune it out. Also, you can get around a jackhammer – I worked in construction a long time, there are certain things you can tune out. You just get used to them and so you don’t even notice them.
And that’s almost the way it’s become with sexual allegations now of misconduct. Because when you go back to Harvey Weinstein that really broke back in October and boy it was a big thing. And, man, everybody was focused on that and here came one allegation after another, after another, after another. And, ooh, it didn’t stop there – oh, Al Franken in the U.S. Senate. Wait a minute, not there, we’ve get guys on ESPN that are having it.
The List Goes On
And suddenly, you heard this clamor all over and it’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, well that’s old news. Let’s move on. And so I went back and kind of looked to see what’s happened. And I guess I’ve kind of tuned it out because I haven’t seen all the number of stuff that– Let me go through some stuff here real quick just throw some names out.
Alice Kozinski who is a California federal judge on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals actually resigned with all the stuff that came out against him. Jean Simmons, the bassist for the band KISS, same kind of scandal stuff. Morgan Spurlock, a Hollywood director. Ryan Lizza, the New York magazine’s Washington correspondent. You had Mario Batalla the TV star, the chef on TV.
Warren Moon NFL Hall of Fame quarterbacker, quarterback who is in sports stuff in media. You have the U.S. House of Representatives, Ruben Kayan, I can’t pronounce his name probably right, but he’s a Democrat. But Republican, Blake Farenthold, these guys resigned from Congress over the stuff. You have Garrison Keillor who did Prairie Home Companion on NPR. Matt Lauer with NBC show, NBC Today.
You have Nick Carter with Backstreet Boys. You have John Lasseter who’s the Disney Animation Chief. Charlie Rose with PBS and CBS. You have Glenn Thrush, The New York Times White House reporter. John Conyers, the Congressman from Michigan.
You”ve got Al Franken who has already resigned from the Senate. Gary Goddard, head of the Goddard group, who does like the Six Flags park rides down in Georgia. You’ve got Andrew Kreisberg the executive producer of movies like Arrow, and Supergirl, and The Flash. And Louis C.K. the comedian. And you have Matt Weiner the Mad Men creator.
You have Jeffrey Tambor, an actor. You’ve got Ed West Wing, known for Gossip Girl. You have David Gill Rod the Primary Way Entertainment CEO. Dustin Hoffman, an actor. Jeff Hoover, The Kentucky House Speaker, Brett Ratner, a filmmaker.
Andy Dick, a comedian. Michael Orlofsky, the NPR chief. Hamilton Fish, the president publisher of New Republic. Jeremy Piven, an actor. Kevin Spacey, an actor.
Only Half Way Through
Ken Baker, E-News correspondent. Mark Halperin, MSNBC political analyst. I’m only halfway through the list I compiled of major things just in the last few weeks.
And then I came across an article that was kind of interesting in California. I guess, being in Texas, I don’t necessarily keep up with California news.
But you had the Ninth Federal Circuit federal judge resign out there because of all the sex charges. And now you’ve got the California Senate, the Senate President Pro Tem, Kevin de Leon, is having a real problem out there. Because what you have now, you have Assemblymen Raul Bocanegra and Matt Dolan, state Democrat Party official, Craig CzesÅaw, state appellate court judge, Conrad Rushing, all stepping down after women leveled sexual misconduct against them. You have Democrat Senator, Tony Mendoza, who is in investigation now because of all the charges. You also have Democrat Senator, Bob Hertzog.
Just goes through all of the list of all these officials in the legislature in California that are having to step down or they’re under investigation. This is like, there’s so much of it, it’s just like we’re not even covering it anymore because it’s that drumbeat that you can tune out in the background. And when I looked at it at the start of the program just to see what was out there, I was floored at how much sexual misconduct charges were out there against big time names that are coming out and being public. And we”re going, “Man, what caused all this stuff?”
And by the way, David, just another area of the culture you”ve also got the Michigan State situation with the doctor there that was just sentenced and the president of the school resigned over it. It was it was that bad. You”ve got the Massachusetts Senate leader there and his homosexual partner now a lobbyist there that’s accused of all kinds of things. It really is in every area of the culture.
Tim, what was the one with the Olympian, the Olympic coach?
That was the doctor from Michigan.
Is that the doctor?
I”ve got it. I”ve got it. Okay.
The Majority of our Culture is Approving of the Objectification of People
Yeah, the one from Michigan. But what you’re seeing this across the board and it’s one of the things that, as we’ve talked to George Barna on the show, and as we’ve looked at the data and the polling, inside of the church, and outside of the church. If you take something, for example, like pornography where pornography is largely accepted in American culture today. Where the majority of Americans think that it’s permissible, if not morally acceptable behavior, to view pornography. And the reason it’s significant, the reason I bring up pornography, in the midst of all this sexual allegations, and sexual scandals, and sexual misconduct, is because in pornography, what you do is you objectify people for sexual gratification.
And in our culture, we”re approving of the objectification of people for sexual gratification and then when we see it acted out in the world around, us we’re offended by it. Now wait a second, you can’t have it both ways. You cannot be offended by, for example, sex trafficking and say, “Now wait a second, we’re against sex trafficking because that’s people objectifying people, objectifying women or children for sexual gratification. We’re totally against the objectification of women and children for sexual gratification.” And yet we’re okay with pornography.
This is why what we are seeing in culture is really no surprise. But at the same time, it’s one of the greatest ironies and double standards we have. Because we pretend to be offended by something that we accept the culture around us as long as it’s within a certain confines, “Well, it”s different if it”s on the computer.” No, no, no, because you’re training your brain that people are objects of sexual gratification as you’re viewing these images. And then all of a sudden, we’re surprised when people in culture around us are treating people like objects of sexual gratification.
A Double Standard and Level of Hypocrisy that is Quite Foolish
It really is a level of hypocrisy that’s quite foolish. However, to me then it’s no surprise what we’re seeing. Although, dad, as you”re reading these names, I had no idea it was all of those names. There’s a lot of names I’ve not heard that were reported on and it seems like there’s just more falling every single day.
Let”s be sure and also say, those are lists of accused, not convicted.
I don’t know the evidence, we don’t know– and I’m sure there are false accusations out there as well in the mix of all of this. But, Tim, you nailed it, man. And I think the timing last year was spot on with Hugh Hefner’s death. You had the media just making him a hero, when in fact, he foisted upon the American culture this objectification of women that has no standard of right and wrong, consent is all that matters, everybody do whatever feels good. And then we’re surprised that people act on that.
Tim was mentionioning even pornography. And within pornography, from a legal standpoint, there are forms of pornography that even today violate federal law. They’re called obscenity, not just pornography, but obscenity. You go too far when you get involved with minors, when you get involved with child pornography, when you get involved with coercive type things, or snuff films.
There’s so much out there bondage wise that violates even the liberals. The same Supreme Court that gives us the crazy standard for marriage, and Lawrence v. Texas – if it’s consensual it’s Constitutional, also has a standard that says, “However, there are certain things you can”t do sexually.” Under the Obama administration, I talked to a guy who had been a prosecutor under George Bush. And in the Justice Department, there actually was a division that enforced obscenity, and kept certain levels of sexual activity, and violence related to it, and objectification off the web. It was illegal, it still is illegal by federal law and under Obama, they just wiped out that division essentially.
School Sex Education More Than Pornography
They did not do a single prosecution at all of all the violation of current existing federal law. Now, we’ll see if we go back to a standard now, but after you’ve let the horse out of the barn for eight years and you’ve been doing it for 40 years in school. And what we’ve seen was sex education in public schools now, it’s more than what most people would see in pornography, quite frankly.
I think Everett Piper even wrote about some of that in his article and we’re about to talk to Everett Piper. Where we are right now, we have just, Tim, you’re exactly right, it’s objectification. And I think we saw that with millennials. Was it 54 or 59 percent said that viewing pornography is morally acceptable. That was the term they used was “morally acceptable”.
And forty five percent of millennials view pornography on a regular basis. So, when you’ve grown up thinking that that’s okay, and objectification is fine, then why are we surprised when we get the kind of results we’re getting right now? And again, the list of names, I went through that fast and I don’t know, what did I get – 30 names, 40 names, whatever it was. That’s just barely the tip of the iceberg of what I printed out of the names that are involved in these kind of scandals.
As Dr. Pyper points out in his article, we’re literally reaping what we have sown. We should not be shocked. That’s really his point is we should not be surprised at what’s happening in the culture. And he’s actually going to be with us.
We”re going to take a quick break. Dr Everett Piper from Oklahoma Wesleyan University with us when we return here on WallBuilders Live.
This is David Barton with another moment from America’s history. Â Â Joseph Story is one of the most important names in American jurisprudence. Not only was he placed on the U.S. Supreme Court but President James Madison but he also founded Harvard Law School and authored numerous legal works on the Constitution. While today’s revisionist claim that the goal of the First Amendment was absolute religious pluralism. Justice Joseph Story vehemently disagreed.
He declared, “The real object of the First Amendment was not to encourage, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but was to exclude all rivalry among Christian denominations.”
According to Founder Joseph Story, Christianity, not pluralism, was the goal of the Founding Fathers in the First Amendment for only a Christian nation is tolerant and thus is truly pluralistic. For more information on God’s hand in American history contact WallBuilders at 1 800 8 REBUILD.
Welcome back, thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Well, the sexual– all kinds of tirades in Washington D.C., the misconduct in Hollywood, it’s on college campuses, it’s happening all over the country. And Dr. Everett Piper, the president of Oklahoma Wesleyan University, is with us. His article says this shouldn’t be a surprise. So, Dr. Piper you’re not surprised by all these scandals?
We”ve Been Teaching Sexual Immorality for Decades
Dr. Everett Piper:
No, why should we be, Rick? I would argue this, if you really believe that what we teach in the classroom makes a difference, if you really believe that a teacher can impact the behavior of their students, than maybe we ought to look at our own *** elementary and secondary education and ask ourselves this question – Â is our culture actually practicing some of the lousy ideas that we’ve been teaching them over the last several decades? And I would argue the answer is obvious, yes they are.
You’re saying we sowed the seeds of what we’re reaping right now.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Yeah. We’ve been teaching sexual immorality for decades, so why are we surprised to find men that have come out of this system of education who are behaving immorally? When you teach young boys sex is an immoral recreational decision, we shouldn’t be surprised to find young men who behave immorally and use women for their own gratification and pleasure.
When would you say we started this? How long have we been sowing these seeds?
Dr. Everett Piper:
That’s a tough question, Rick. I don’t know, you go back to the 50s, the 60s. Clearly the sexual revolution of the 60s is a flash point or a tipping point for us in terms of our change of attitude as a culture when it comes to sex. So, we know, let’s just go back to the 60s, we know that we’ve been teaching it for some 40 years or more that sex is not a moral decision, it’s a recreational decision. We’ve dumbed down the morality of sex to nothing but consent. So, if you can just find another partner that consents to your lebitness appetite, what was wrong five minutes ago is now right.
Our Standard for Right and Wrong is Currently a Moving Standard
Dr. Everett Piper:
The standard for what is right and wrong is a moving standard because it’s based on somebody else’s consent, somebody else’s opinion, rather than your own moral compass. These are all things that we’ve been teaching for decades to our kids. I’ve got in * Oklahoma, just down the road from me, they’re teaching middle school kids the techniques of anal sex and oral sex. And they’re actually having instructors come in to tell 12 year olds how to do this stuff in very graphic detail. I’ve talked to you before on your program about Cherry Creek in Fox Ridge, Colorado where they’re providing an internet portal through their curriculum to junior high school students that takes them to graphic videos – not cartoons, not diagrams, but videos of sexual acts that we don’t even want to talk on this program– about on this program right now.
And the list goes on, and on, and on. This doesn’t even touch on the sex weeks at Yale, and UCLA, and Berkeley, where they’re bringing in pornographers and sex toy vendors to give 18-19 year old kids the opportunity to learn more about how to engage in these particular recreational activities. This is just nonsense. So, why are we surprised to see Matt Lauer and Harvey Weinstein? We’ve taught these guys to behave this way.
Really when you lay out the facts like that, it does become clear. Now, others would say at this point, “Well, but the standard is still consenting. If the other person’s consenting then it’s okay.” These people we’re talking about now, their victims did not consent.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Well, again, I think if we’re really going to dumb down the discussion of morality to consent, then we’ve got a problem as a culture. I’ll say it again what I just said a few minutes ago, if what was wrong five minutes ago now becomes right just because you can find a willing accomplice, that’s not a very good standard for moral decisions. In other words, I would hope that we believe that morality has a more permanent enduring standard than just finding someone out there that might agree to do something that we want to do. I would hope that morality doesn’t change with the attitude of a partner. Okay?
The Problem With Morality Moving All the Time
Dr. Everett Piper:
I would hope that morality is a standard that doesn’t move just because we find a willing accomplice. But let’s say that we did find somebody that consents and then changes their mind afterwards. Well, that’s what you see right now. You see this attitude of, “Well, I consented at the time, but I really didn’t want to.” And therefore what was wrong at one moment, became right at another moment, and then five years later, it becomes wrong again because the person says they didn’t consent.
That’s the problem with morality moving all the time, and the target moving all the time, you never know what’s right, you never know what’s wrong. Because it’s grounded in personal opinion rather than enduring principles of God.
That right there is key. It’s so hard for me to play devil’s advocate with you Dr. Piper because everything you say I’m going, “That’s perfect. That’s exactly what I’m thinking.” And then I’m trying to give the other side’s argument. I can’t even say it with a straight face.
But what you just said brings us right back to the same thing we’ve talked about on this program for– since we’ve been doing it for 10 years. It all comes back to whether the standard is a moral absolute like you just said. Or it’s moral relativism and everybody decides for themselves. It”s still the same debate.
Dr. Everett Piper:
It is. It is. How many times have I said on your program, Rick, C.S. Lewis, quoted C.S. Lewis, says, —
Dr. Everett Piper:
–“You can do no measuring without a measuring rod outside of those things being measured.” And that’s what we’re trying to do in our cultural debate right now when it comes to sex. We have no measuring rod outside of those things being measured. In other words, we are the measuring rod in and of ourselves. And therefore, the thing keeps moving all over the place.
It”s Like Trying to Nail Down Jello
Dr. Everett Piper:
It’s like trying to nail down jello. We know in our hearts that sex is a moral issue. We know that. That’s why we’re having this cultural conversation even within the secular world. That’s why there’s such an uproar over Weinstein, and Matt Lauer, and the rest of the miscreants from Washington and Hollywood. Why in the world do we even care?
If it’s nothing but recreation – playing football, or basketball, or having a pizza, why are we even having this conversation conversation? The reason we’re having it is the truth of God is written on every human heart. And the reason that we are talking on your show right now about it is that measuring rod has been compromised, its been broken. And we can’t have a moral and righteous culture unless we revisit the fact that there are self-evident truths endowed to us by our Creator and those things need to be measured by God’s word and not your opinion or mine.
Your article is in the Washington Times. It”s called, “Reports of Sexual Misconduct Should Not Be a Surprise”. Dr. Piper, it”s so good. If you don’t mind, I”m going to read a couple lines from it.
It says, “We act as if something has gone wrong, but yet we continue to teach our kids to do what is wrong. We have torn down all standards, but yet we are incredulous to find that we are led by men who have no standards. We mock what is right and then shake our heads at leaders who don’t know how to do what is right.” And then you quote C.S. Lewis saying, “We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.”
Dr. Piper, we’ve got all this going on right now, are we going to continue to teach our kids to do what is wrong or do you think this is a learning moment where people will wake up and will change some of those things?
This is an Opportunity
Dr. Everett Piper:
I think every one of these flashpoints in culture is an opportunity. It’s an opportunity for the Christian to step into the market square of ideas, bring common sense, bring sense that is common. So, yes, we can make a difference. Yes, we can say we are the ones that are pro women. We believe in treating women with dignity and respect and we’re not going to teach young men to use them as objects of recreation.
Why? Because there’s an immutable truth as our measuring rod of morality. Not public opinion and not a culture that’s clueless and just listening at sea.
You talk about mocking honor and mocking what is right. Of course, there was a ton of that going on with Vice President Mike Pence over his standards of not going to lunch alone with a woman other than his wife and all of those things. And hopefully that now will become the new standard. Hopefully we”ll say, “Hey, this was the right thing to do to honor his wife and to honor those women that he was working with.”
Dr. Everett Piper:
That rule isn’t all that bad of a rule. After all, you and I know that it”s the Billy Graham rule because Billy Graham never would have a business meeting, or even get in an elevator if you will, with a woman unless somebody else was there. Because he didn’t want to be accused of something that wasn’t fair or wasn’t true. He always wanted to be held accountable.
Thus, Mike Pence practices the same thing. You don’t see Mike Pence in the news right now with regard to misusing women and maybe there’s a reason. He’s held himself accountable to a standard other than his own desires and his own opinion.
We”re going to have a link to your article at our website today. Folks, it”s called “Reports of Sexual Misconduct Should Not be a Surprise”. You can find it in the Washington Times at WashingtonTimes.com. Or you can go to our website today at WallBuildersLive.com.
Dr. Everett Piper, always a pleasure to have you, sir. Thank you for moral clarity. Appreciate your time, man.
Dr. Everett Piper:
Thank you, Rick.
Stay with us folks. We”ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.
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Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us on WallBuilders Live today. Special thanks to Dr. Everett Piper for joining us as well.
And by the way, those of you out there right now, it”s kind of that season where you’re looking, high school seniors for colleges. Dr. Piper is president there at Oklahoma Wesleyan and we can tell you it’s a great college. A great place for your kids to learn and to be in a good environment that’s going to reinforce those values that made our country great.
We’re back with David and Tim Barton and, guys, he is spot on. I tried to be devil’s advocate, but what he said was so spot on I couldn’t disagree with him. I kept trying to ask tough questions, but it was just too good.
One thing to point out about that university, it’s a Christian university and there’s a couple of hundred of those Christian universities across the United States. How many university presidents, from any university, have you heard taking a stand like he took?
Not Backing Down
No doubt. No doubt. And getting attacked for it all over the place and not backing down.
Getting attacked for it and not backing down. I think I might want my kid going to a school like that.
He’s had to take on his own faculty and they”re probably not there anymore, quite frankly. But he’s been hit by faculty, he knocks them down with the same ease with which he knocked down your devil’s advocate questions. He does it when students come after him. He’s just uncompromising on truth, particularly Biblical truth. And he was right, we’ve got this floating standard of morality and is kind of what we decide on.
We used to have an objective standard that was natural law standard which is Biblically based. And so even if you were not religious, you used– you still recognized that natural law gave you fixed standards of morality and right and wrong. So even in a basically religiously founded nation, you still had secular people who weren’t religious still following that. Because you had fixed moral standards that nature itself teaches you what’s right and wrong. And we’re today at the point where we think if Congress passes a law, then nature is going to change.
You know, if Congress passes a law then horses, and cows, and pigs, and deer, they’re gonna change their sexual behavior because we–
Laws Don”t Change Natural Law
No, laws don’t change natural law. Natural law is what should reflect statutory law and we don’t even understand that concept anymore.
Well, one of the things that I think is significant that it was brought up in the interview is that a lot of what’s happening now with even some of these accusations, is, it’s not accusations of– and this isn”t for all of them– some of them, I’m going to put this caveat, some of them are certainly very much grossly inappropriate, whatever it is. But now some of these attacks you”re getting are really more of a regret scenario.
There were two people that were consenting and then afterwards someone says, “Oh, man, I really regret having had this sexual relationship. Therefore it’s like they’ve emotionally raped me because I now regret this behavior.” And this is where, when Dr. Piper talked about this moving standard of morality and right and wrong, this is what’s so crazy now is we don’t have a standard of right and wrong that is defined by behavior. Now it”s defined by an emotional feeling and, “Oh, I feel like that was a bad decision.” This is a pretty scary place to be in in the midst of culture that doesn’t understand basic rights and wrongs.
But, again, this should be no surprise in the midst of moral relativism in this kind of postmodernist culture where all reality is subjective, is up to the individual to decide for themselves. This is kind of the outflow of it. And, Rick, as you pointed out, this really is a great opportunity to help change and go a different direction. Because it’s pretty easy to see the fruit that this tree is producing is not the fruit we want to enjoy in the future. Well, then we need to go ahead and let’s cut this thing down to the roots and let’s start planting some different seeds.
Let”s Change What We”re Teaching
Going back to education, as Dr. Piper talked about with even these middle school kids and what they are learning. Well, let’s go back and let’s start teaching some more abstinence based education. Let’s go back and start changing and transitioning instead of teaching these elementary students or these middle school students about what “safe sex” is. No, let’s kind of change the dynamics and parameters. But this only happens if we can evaluate where we are and go, “This is terrible. Let”s not do this anymore.”
And then change what we are really teaching the next generation, so we don’t keep producing these same results.
Sexual Misconduct Allegations, Should We Be Surprised?
It”s exactly like Dr. Pepper says in the article, “We act as if something has gone wrong. But yet we continue to teach our kids to do what is wrong.” Let’s change that. Let’s teach them what’s right and let”s set a better example as well.
Great program today, guys, thank you all for sharing. Thank you to Dr. Everett Piper for being with us today as well. We appreciate you listening today to WallBuilders Live.