Slavery, Did President Lincoln Support Keeping It: In today”€™s episode, we discussed the topic of was Lincoln solid on ending slavery or was freeing slaves secondary to keeping the union together? We also learn how his faith played a big role in leading and shaping him over the years into the man he ultimately became. Tune in now to learn more!

Air Date: 04/24/2018

Guest: Stephen Mansfield

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton

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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we talk about the day”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture. We always do that from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and our founder here at WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton”€™s with us, he”€™s a national speaker, pastor, and the president of WallBuilders. And my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator.

You can find out more about all of us at WallBuildersLive.com. You can also get a list of all of our stations and be able to listen to some of the archives over the last few months there at that website as well. And then you can go to WallBuilders.com, our main website. That’s where you can get the tools that we have for you to equip you and inspire you to be a better citizen. You need to help train your children in these things, help your neighbors, and your Sunday school, people in your Sunday school and your church. Tell them what it means to be an American, what it means to preserve this freedom and do our duty as good citizens.

David, Tim, we’ve got actually a question from the audience and it’s not Foundations of Freedom Thursday which is when we normally take questions from the audience. So, later in the program we’ve got an expert to answer that question and it has to do with President Abraham Lincoln who we had Stephen Mansfield on to talk about, oh, I guess it’s been about three weeks ago.

A Completely Different Conclusion

David:

Yes Stephen Mansfield is a great historian but particularly on the issue of Abraham Lincoln. Because Abraham Lincoln today is going through a radical transformation. Of course, he doesn’t know that because he’s been dead for a long time. But the way we talk about Abraham Lincoln, the way we portray him, the way he’s being portrayed by media, and academics, and others. They’re finding all these little tidbits back in history that we’ve always known about, but they’re taking them and spinning them into a completely different conclusion than any previous generations ever derived.

Tim:

And, guys, let me point out – dad, one of the things that you cautioned me of several years ago– and I’m sure I’m not the only one you’ve cautioned of this. But I remember this very specifically – you said, “€œAlways be wary anytime someone says we found brand new information that nobody’s ever known before.”€ Because, for the most part, all this stuff has been out there a long time. So, if people are finding something that has “€œnever been known before”€ then really it’s because they’re interpreting things in ways they’ve never been interpreted and that can be a dangerous thing. And that’s largely what we’re seeing and, really, many founding fathers, right?

So, whether it’s George Washington, or Thomas Jefferson, or Benjamin Franklin, you can go down the list of the majority of well-known founding fathers. But now it’s Abraham Lincoln and we’re hearing so many things that some of them are just laughably, idiotically, wrong. But then some of these things are being perpetuated and if you don’t know better then you easily can buy into something that is not accurate and not true. Which, again, is why we thought, “€œWell, let’s just have Stephen Mansfield to come on it and clarify some of this.”€

But certainly something that we see happening quite often around us.

David:

Yeah, and it’s one of those things that just a few weeks ago, Tim, we did educators training. Training for educators here at WallBuilders, and the library, and the documents, etc. And one of the ways we start those educators off– and by the way, we have another session coming up in July. So, for educators who want to be part of this educators training – and it runs from university presidents all the way down to classroom teachers and everything in between – it’s a great opportunity.

What About the Other 498?

David:

But we start out by pointing to three things. We point to, number one, a cable -a cable”€™s made up a number of strands. We point to a chain which is made up of a number of links. And we point to a long freight train that has hundreds and hundreds of boxcars on it.

Let me just take the last example. We say history is like this freight train – it”€™s two miles long, it’s got 500 boxcars. And what we’ll do is we’ll take a snapshot of one or two boxcars and say, “€œthis is history”€. No, it’s not. And we’ll say, “€œOh, here’s black history. See this one? Why this is slavery in the Civil War. And see this one over here? This is a civil rights movement. That’s black history.”€ No, it’s not. That’s two boxcars out of something that’s two miles long. You didn’t show the other four hundred and ninety eight boxcars.

Tim:

Which, by the way, not to discount that that was a part of it.

Rick:

Sure.

David:

That”€™s right.

Tim:

But they teach it as if that’s the entirety of it. And I’m sure if we talked to an academic and said, “€œNow, you’re only teaching this part.”€ They would say, “€œWell, well, I understand it’s only a part, but this is one of the most important parts.”€ Or, This is the most significant.”€ So, they would even acknowledge– they don’t always do that to their class, but they would acknowledge if they were confronted that, no, there’s more to this. But they emphasize those parts as if those are the most significant. But in only emphasizing those parts you’re discounting, or in some cases removing, anything else that is vitally important to understanding the whole sequence of the history of this case you mentioned blacks. So, maybe the history of blacks in America.

But you could talk about women’s history, you could talk about military history, or political history. You–

Not Teaching the Extent

Rick:

Or even the Founding Fathers themselves.

Tim:

Absolutely.

Rick:

They’ll pick one instance with the founding fathers and try to define them based on that.

Tim:

Right. So, the founding fathers, they were all racists. Or, the founding fathers, they were all these rich white guys. Or, the founding fathers didn’t believe in God. You hear these ridiculous generalizations. And to give proof or evidence to their cause and their claim they will cite one or two examples and say, “€œSee, this is true across the board for everything etc.”€ And, really, all they’ve done is not covered the extent of the history that is there. But in not teaching the extent of the history that”€™s there they’re changing a lot of the narrative that’s known today.

David:

And that’s what happened with the question we got on Lincoln. It deals with one specific measure, at one point in time, in a long life, and a guy that dealt with thousands of measures. They take this one measure and look at it and say, “€œWell, look what Lincoln did here. This proves that he was not against slavery.”€ And so we thought a guy to really put a good perspective on this is a guy who has studied Lincoln’s life from top to bottom – his political views, his views on slavery, his religious views, etc.. And that’s historian Stephen Mansfield. So, we wanted Stephen to answer this question for us.

Rick:

He’s the author of many great books. The one we’re going to talk about today is Lincoln’s Battle with God: A President’s Struggle with Faith and What It Meant For America. Stephen Mansfield when we come back. Stay with us. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

Constitution Alive

Have you ever wanted to learn more about the United States Constitution but just felt like, man, the classes are boring or it’s just that old language from 200 years ago or I don’t know where to start? People want to know. But it gets frustrating because you don’t know where to look for truth about the Constitution either.

Well,, we’ve got a special program for you available now called Constitution Alive with David Barton and Rick Green. It’s actually a teaching done on the Constitution at Independence Hall in the very room where the Constitution was framed. We take you both to Philadelphia, the Cradle of Liberty and Independence Hall and to the WallBuilders”€™ library where David Barton brings the history to life to teach the original intent of our Founding Fathers.

We call it the QuickStart guide to the Constitution because in just a few hours through these videos you will learn the Citizen’s Guide to America’s Constitution.  You’ll learn what you need to do to help save our Constitutional Republic. It’s fun! It’s entertaining! And it’s going to inspire you to do your part to preserve freedom for future generations. It’s called Constitution Alive with David Barton and Rick Green. You can find out more information on our website now at WallBuilders.com.

Rick:

Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Thrilled to have Stephen Mansfield back with us. If you haven’t read his books we encourage you to get all of them. But today we’re going to be talking about his book on Abraham Lincoln. Which we had the chance to have him on a few weeks ago to talk about as well. But he’s got books on Churchill and a great manhood book – really encourage you to read that one. My boys and me are reading that one right now Mansfield’s book of manly men. We”€™ll have a link to that at WallBuilderLive.com today. You can also get The Faith of George W. Bush, The Faith of Barack Obama, one on George Whitfield. Stephen, always good to have you, man. With all the books you write I”€™m surprised you have time to come on the radio again.

A Reader”€™s Question

Stephen Mansfield:

Yeah, I crawled out of the stacks just to chat with you, buddy.

Rick:

Well, I appreciate that. Appreciate it very much. We had a lot of great response to the interview with you on Lincoln and had one particular question come in and appreciate you coming on. We just want to toss the question at you and chat about it today. Does that sound good to you?

Stephen Mansfield:

That sounds wonderful. Thank you.

Rick:

Alright, buddy, here it goes. This person wrote in and said, “€œGentlemen, I had a little debate with a young Civil War buff today and she told me that Lincoln’s support of the Corwin Amendment was proof that Lincoln wasn’t solid on ending slavery and that freeing slaves was secondary to keeping the Union together.”€ So, Stephen, with the Corwin Amendment tell us what it is and why that would cause this person to think he wasn’t really antislavery and wanting to end slavery.

Stephen Mansfield:

Yeah, it’s a fascinating area. When Lincoln was elected, a lot of the Southern states began to secede and the rest of the Union, of course, was trying to figure out how can we keep the Union together. And so there was a proposal that would have become our 13th Amendment to the Constitution which we’ll just call the Corwin Amendment. And basically what it does is it promises, in fact, I can read it very quickly, “€œNo amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress power to abolish or interfere within any state with the domestic institutions thereof. Including that a person is held to labor or service by the laws of said state.”€

Now that”€™s legal language, but what it basically means is that Congress was promising that they would not interfere with any state’s slavery. And nor would they make any law in the future that would restrict slavery within states where it already existed.

Lincoln Would Have Kept Slavery Where it Was?

Rick:

And this was while he was in Congress or this is while he’s president?

Stephen Mansfield:

This is just after he’s elected president, but before the war breaks out.

Rick:

Okay.

Stephen Mansfield:

It”€™s during the months from the time of the election until April of “€˜61. And Lincoln said, “€œI don’t have any objection to it.”€ Now, it’s very important to follow with Abraham Lincoln that he’s making a progression the whole time that he’s in office. And he’s making a progression both on slavery and in his relationship with God. There’s just no question about it. But I want to confirm what this person who is asking the question has heard. The little historian is absolutely correct and that is that Lincoln at the beginning of the Civil War would happily have kept slavery where it was if he could have preserved the Union. There’s no question about it.

In fact, in 1862 he wrote a letter to Horace Greeley. He said, “€œIf I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it. If I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it. And if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would do that also.”€ But then he concluded the letter by saying, “€œI’ve stated my purpose here about my official duty. But I intend no modification of my oft expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.”€

So, what you have is an Abraham Lincoln who was elected to office, the Union’s falling apart, people are looking for some way to guarantee the South that they can keep their slaves. Everybody thought slavery was dying out anyway – it was going to die out eventually over generations. But there’s no question that Lincoln supported an amendment that would have kept slavery right where it was.

Now, if I can just rant on here for another minute–

Rick:

Sure, yeah.

Lincoln”€™s Covenant With God

Stephen Mansfield:

–thing that’s important for us to follow is that Lincoln absolutely would have been willing to keep slavery at the beginning of the Civil War in order to preserve the Union, but that changed. That changed because of the religious journey that he was making. And we know that Lincoln made a covenant with God in 1862 and he told his cabinet about it.

We have it recorded by Salmon Chase, we have it recorded by Gideon Wells. Both of whom were in that cabinet meeting where Lincoln said, “€œI had made a covenant with God that if God would give us a signal victory I was going to propose the Emancipation Proclamation.”€ He said, “€œGod has given us that victory at Antietam.”€ That’s what he was specifically referring to. “€œAnd so I’m now going to issue the Emancipation Proclamation.”€ So, he did that of course as of January 1, 1863.

Well, the whole point here is that people are a little surprised to find out that Abraham Lincoln was not always the thorough abolitionist that he seems to be later in his presidency. But it’s true. If he could have slavery in the south in the states it was already in to preserve the Union, he would have done it. But he made a progression, he grew spiritually, he was dramatically changing spiritually.

And by 1862 he came to the conclusion that if God would signal that he wanted him to do it that he would issue the Emancipation Proclamation. God did in Lincoln’s mind. And then we have this recorded by his cabinet and Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation. So, you see Lincoln on a journey–

Rick:

Yeah.

Stephen Mansfield:

–and that”€™s why he seems to be in a little bit of tension with himself.

Holding the Union Together First

Rick:

That makes perfect sense. And all of us, I would think, over time you develop your views, and views sometimes change, and God works on you, and there’s revelations there. It sounds like in his case then initially– it sounds like he was always antislavery – not necessarily an abolitionist if it meant breaking up the Union. And so initially his priority was, just as this letter said, this listener question said, his priority was, “€œMy number one job as president is to hold the Union together.”€

Just like the founding fathers knew they couldn’t start the nation if they tried to abolish slavery from the very beginning and had to deal with that evil in the South in order to create the Union. He felt like he had to hold the Union together first and continue to work on the hearts of men to end slavery. And then later God showed him an opening to say, “€œNo, now’s your chance. You can end slavery and that’s when he made the commitment.”€ Is that an accurate description?

Stephen Mansfield:

That’s exactly it. As far as we know Abraham Lincoln was always personally opposed to slavery. Always. Now he may have thought– what we’re grappling with is what political tactics he thought would work best.

Rick:

Yeah.

Stephen Mansfield:

For a while in his life he thought, “€œWell, maybe we ought to pay the money to ship them all back to Africa.”€ For a while in his life He thought, “€œWell, maybe we can keep it legal just in the states where it already exists.”€ But those were political tactics. He always, as he said in a letter to Horace Greeley, always wanted all men everywhere to be free. There’s never any question about that in his mind.

But how do you keep a Union together with slave states are leaving? Well, one proposal which he was open to was since everybody knew that slavery was going to die out progressively anyway, it was already dying out, why don’t we go ahead and guarantee those slave states that we won’t pass any laws that restrict slavery? Now, that seems like a compromise, and it is, and Lincoln changed later. But what you see is Abraham Lincoln grappling with the political tactics that would preserve the Union. He thought America was coming to an end and he was trying to rescue it.

A Man On a Journey

Stephen Mansfield:

So, he’s not a racist, he’s not a hypocrite. He’s a man on a journey for sure, but he’s looking for the tactics that will keep the nation together. What’s important is that in 1862 he makes a covenant with God. God seems to sign off with the victory at Antietam and Lincoln tells his cabinet, “€œI’ve made a coveted with God and I’m going to free the slaves.”€ And that’s exactly what he does.

Rick:

So, it would definitely not be accurate to say that because of this support of this Corwin Amendment and this political tactical decision, it would not be accurate to say that that means he was okay with slavery or pro slavery. That would be a stretch, I would think.

Stephen Mansfield:

That would be a complete misunderstanding of Abraham Lincoln’s life. He proposed to ban slavery in Washington D.C. when he was in Congress, he fought slavery everywhere he could. But when the Union”€™s coming apart, when he’s trying to preserve the country, and when he believes that slavery is going to die out of its own accord, and its own burden, eventually then he just wasn’t willing to do some half steps.

Rick:

Yeah.

Stephen Mansfield:

And that’s really the best way to see this. But it’s interesting that so many people who are sort of in a “€œpull down all the statues”€ kind of mode are now angry with Lincoln. There’s nothing new here. Lincoln mentioned the Corwin Amendment in his first inaugural address – he wasn”€™t hiding anything. But, again, it might cut across some of our modern sensibilities.

Rick:

Yeah.

A Political Solution

Stephen Mansfield:

And I certainly understand that. I live in D.C., I attend a largely African-American church, I understand how that must feel.

But what Lincoln was doing was trying to find a political solution to what he thought was going to be the end of the United States of America. And he was willing for slavery to die a natural death rather than end as a result of war or legality if he had to. And that is the truth.

Rick:

Well, and it is so hard for us to put our minds in the context of this day. It”€™s what I love about your books – it helps you think about what was it like to live in that day. The only comparable thing I can think of for today would be to say– it”€™d be like saying of a legislator that voted to end abortion after 20 weeks that somehow that meant they were pro abortion in the first 20 weeks.

Stephen Mansfield:

Yeah.

Rick:

Which obviously is not true and not logical, but it’s a tactical decision that if I can’t end it all today I’m going to end as much of it as I can. And I’m not going to kick states out of the Union, I’m not going to break up the nation. I’m going to work to get rid of it everywhere I can and hopefully eventually we get there. Is that a fair analogy you think?

Stephen Mansfield:

It is. It is. What I often say here in D.C. where I’m sitting right now that politics is often a matter of hold your nose and hold your nose tighter. You know what I mean?

Rick:

Right.

Stephen Mansfield:

You’re not making choices between Jesus and the devil. You’re making choices between things that sort of stink and things that stink a lot.

Rick:

Yeah.

The Higher Goal

Stephen Mansfield:

And that’s kind of what it was for Lincoln. If Abraham Lincoln had had his way all slavery would have ended everywhere in the world all at once. No question about it. And I don’t know of a time in his life where that wasn’t the case. But the question is not what does Abraham Lincoln want and is he ruler of the world. The question is what do you do given the political realities you have at the time? And he was trying to do the best he could with the realities at the time.

So, yes he did at the beginning of the Civil War support an amendment that would have kept slavery in place right where it was. But he thought long term that would be better. Slavery would die out of its own burden, of its own devastations, and the Union would be preserved. And that, for him, was the higher goal.

I know it can be offensive. And believe me, I’ve sat over pizza talking to my African-American scholar friends about this by the hour. But the fact is that is where Lincoln was and I think what’s important is not so much that he was willing to compromise at the beginning, that’s not much of a surprise. He admitted as much in one of his famous speeches. The important thing is that his faith, his relationship with God, is what brought him ultimately to do the right thing. And that’s what we should be celebrating.

Rick:

Stephen, you always help so much to put it in perspective and understand it. Folks at home I encourage you to get the book on Lincoln by Stephen Mansfield. It”€™s called, Lincoln’s Battle with God: A President’s Struggle with Faith and What It Meant For America. We’ll have a link to make it easier or you can just go straight to Amazon. Bookstores everywhere have it. And then, personally, I”€™ve got to recommend his book on manly men. Go check that out as well.

Stephen, appreciate you, brother. Thanks for your time today.

Stephen Mansfield:

Always great to be with you, man. Talk to you soon.

Rick:

Stay with us, folks. We”€™ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Leadership Training Program

Rick:

Hey, friends! We’ve got a great program to share with you today. It”€™s the WallBuilders Leadership Training Program and it’s an opportunity for 18 to 25 year olds to come spend two weeks diving into the original documents we’re always talking about here on WallBuilders Live.

Tim, you’ve already been doing this a couple of summers and seen the results of young people coming to this program. We’re going to see more of them coming this year.

Tim:

Yeah, Rick, it”€™s something that”€™s been cool to see the transformation with young people coming in. The emphasis, for us, largely is a pursuit of truth. We have a culture that doesn’t know what truth is. We don’t know what biblical truth is, or constitutional truth, or the American heritage that we have. And so we really dive into original documents and say, “€œWell,, what did they actually write? What did they actually do? Not just what did somebody say, what is actually true, and the truth is what’s transformational.

David:

Yeah, guys. This really is a remarkable opportunity. And for those who want to spend time with us and spend time in the original documents, this is a great program. So,, if you’re from 18 to 25, or   someone who’s 18 to 25, send them to sign up for one of our three sessions this summer at WallBuilders.com/leadershiptraining.

Moments From America’s History

This is David Barton with another moment from America’s history. Today, numerous court decisions demonstrate that there’s often a conflict between the courts, the law, and religion. Has this conflict always existed?

Not according to James Wilson.  James Wilson was a signer of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. He was a law professor as Well, as an original justice on the U.S. Supreme Court. James Wilson saw no conflict between religion and the law. In fact, just the contrary.

He declared, “€œHuman law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. Far from being rivals or enemies religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistance.  Indeed, these two sciences run into each other.”

In the views of Founding Father James Wilson religion and good civil law were inseparable. For more information on God’s hand in American history contact WallBuilders at 1-800-8-REBUILD.

Rick:

Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Special thanks to Stephen Mansfield for coming on with us. And one more time – that book is called Lincoln’s Battle with God: A President’s Struggle with Faith and What It Meant For America.

So, exactly what you guys were describing. By the way, we’re back with David and Tim Barton. Guys, it”€™s exactly what you were describing. Just the fact that this was one moment in time, but man, Stephen really made it clear kind of the transitions that Lincoln was going through. And that it was happening while his faith was growing stronger.

That”€™s What One Boxcar Looks Like

David:

Yeah, but I love what he said. He said, “€œLincoln was on a journey.”€ That’s not a point in time. That’s what happens when you look at that two mile long freight train with 500 boxcars. You take two of them and say, “€œSee, here’s what the train looks like.”€ No, that’s what one boxcar looks like. And Stephen said, he said, “€œLincoln’s making a progression about his position on slavery and about his relationship with God.”€ And the two really do go together.

But think about history. If you just take a snapshot of the Apostle Peter you could make him look like a martyr of the church so bold and courageous. Or you can make him look like a coward. Depends on what– if you want to take him outside the courtyard when he denied Jesus, that’s the picture Peter, let’s stop right there, there’s no more to the story. But there is more.

You could take the Apostle Paul. Man, he’s a murderer, he’s the guy who got Stephen killed, the first martyr the Bible. Or you could say this is the guy who helped spread the gospel all over the known world at that time. Or you can do that with Ben Franklin, or Thomas Jefferson. You take really complicated people and you take one single fact out of their life and said, “€œThis proves that they believe this, or that.”€ That’s just not true. That’s not true for anyone at all – not even we ourselves.

If anybody’s got a little age with them they can look back to really stupid stuff they did when they were young, and feel embarrassed about it, and say, “€œThat’s not who I am now.”€ But we don’t let that happen in history today. We want to make these generalizations based on one boxcar in the freight train and say, “€œThis is what it looks like.”€ And that’s just not true.

Tim:

And it’s one of the important questions we always should ask – is that the only thing they said about the statement, does that view contradict any other times in their lives? If we’re going to analyze this we ought to analyze it from a critical standpoint in the sense of being a critical thinker. And so we don’t just take one statement and that’s why we don’t go to nursing homes and interview people who are 95 years old and say, “€œOh, this is what they believed their entire life.”€ Well, no, we don’t do that. You don’t take someone that’s been sleep deprived, right?  

Don”€™t Miss the Major Point

Tim:

You can go through a list, a cacophony of examples, and yet we look in this example at someone from history and take this one element, and one moment, and go, “€œWell, this is what they must have believed their entire life.”€ Instead of recognizing, as Steven pointed out, there’s a progression. And if you don’t see that progression then you’re really missing this major point of Lincoln’s life and how he changed, and his views changed, over time.

Rick:

I’d love to hear you guys– I’d love to hear you all”€™s perspective on what he was saying about even the view itself. Early in his presidency, so he was saying, “€œLook, we have to be tactical about how we do this.”€ He wasn’t for complete abolition if it meant losing the Union. Comment on that and the fact that the Founders faced, in many ways, the same decision. Many of them that were anti slavery that didn’t think they could go for the gold, you couldn’t go for wiping it out from the beginning.

David:

Well, one thing that Stephen made clear is there never was a point in time at which Abraham Lincoln was not personally against slavery.

Rick:

Yeah.

David:

All the way through, start to finish. So, it becomes more of a – how do you work out the policy? And as I was studying a lot on black history recently getting ready to do a book with all sorts of black heroes that today’s generation really hasn’t heard about. But they”€™re really cool black heroes that inspire people of any color, any ethnicity. These are cool heroes.

The Difference Between Emancipationists and Abolitionists

David:

One of the Black historians that I was studying made the point that back in Lincoln’s day there was a big difference between what they called emancipationists and abolitionists. And abolitionists said, “€œWe’re ending slavery right now. End the story. No other options.”€ And emancipationists said, “€œWe’re going to end slavery, but it’ll be over a progression of time because it’s been part of the nation 200 years and you just don’t get it done in one swift move.”€

And so it became more of a tactical approach to how you do this. I’m personally against this, but at this point I’m the president of the United States and I’m sworn to uphold the Constitution, that means keep the nation together. So, you have a tactical consideration there that’s different from other points.

But when you get– and as Mansfield pointed out, when Lincoln got to the point he said, “€œGod, if you’ll give me a big military victory.”€ That’s a big prayer because at that time the Union had gone two years of getting their ears pinned back in virtually every battle. And he says, “€œGod, give me a big victory, I’ll take that as a signal I should issue the Emancipation Proclamation.”€ He got the victory at Antietam, he issued the Emancipation Proclamation.

Now, within the period of just under two years we see Lincoln taking a completely different tactical approach to what he did with the Corwin Amendment 2 years prior to that. So, again you see a really kind of complicated person on a journey. But he’s moving the right direction. So, you can’t take the Corwin Amendment and say, “€œThis proves that he was not against slavery.”€ No, it doesn’t. That’s part of the progress and the journey he made from being an emancipationist to moving into an abolitionist.

Slavery, Did President Lincoln Support Keeping It

Rick:

Folks, there”€™s more information on our website – WallBuilders.com. And in fact, somewhat related to this topic is David Barton’s book on Thomas Jefferson and the Jefferson Lies. It relates very much to this issue of another similar situation where someone was anti-slavery, worked to end slavery, but couldn’t do it all at once. So, check out that book for more of that information today – it”€™s at WallBuilders.com. We sure appreciate you listening. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.