Standing Up To Tyranny In A Christlike Way, Part 2 – With Pastor Mike McClure: Have you heard how many millions a California church been fined for obeying the Bible? What did the judge say after hearing this pastor’s heartfelt, articulate message of being the Church who loves, serves, and is the hands and feet of Jesus? Today we continue hearing from Ps. Mike McClure on how to respond to tyranny in a Christlike way. Tune in to hear this message for such a time as this!

Air Date: 03/02/2021

Guest: Pastor Mike McClure

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton

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Transcription note: As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith and the Culture

Rick:

Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. It’s WallBuilders Live, where we talk about the hottest topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. My name is Rick Green, I’m America’s constitution coach and a former state legislator out of Texas. I’m here with David Barton, he’s America’s premier historian and our founder at WallBuilders. Tim Barton’s, with US National speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders.

And today we are going to be diving back into a program that we had to cut off yesterday. Pastor Mike McClure is Pastor of the San Jose Calvary Chapel, and the government has been after him with a vengeance. And we’re going to pick up where we left off yesterday on that interview, give you a chance to find out what happens, sort of our Paul Harvey day to say the rest of the story. But there’s just some really good information here.

While you’re at it, go to our website, wallbuilderslive.com, that’s where you can make that one time or monthly contribution. That’s also the place you can get a list of all of our stations across the country. And you can also dive into the archives. So if you did miss yesterday’s program, and you’re just tuning in, you can get yesterday’s program at the website right now at wallbuilderslive.com.

Alright, David, Tim, later in the program, Mike McClure back with us from yesterday, of course yesterday, we had the first part of that interview, and we got to hear about his argument before the court, kind of how it all started there at Calvary Chapel, San Jose with the government shutting them down, trying to continue to shut them down, and they’ve said, hey, we’ve got to meet the needs of our community. 

And I thought yesterday was great just to get his heart about why they were willing to exercise this civil disobedience. And it really is about the community and about meeting these needs. You hear about these suicides and all these awful things that are happening where people are literally begging the churches to meet.

A Heartfelt Presentation of the Purpose of the Church

David:

I thought it was one of the most articulate heartfelt presentations of the purpose of the church, because I hear a lot of people saying the church is essential, and I agree. But it’s almost like that’s a soundbite that we’re supposed to say because we have a First Amendment guarantee. 

This was not a soundbite. This is, I really don’t care what the Constitution says. Here’s what the Bible says and here’s what I’m seeing in our community. And it really was heartfelt.

Tim:

And when you have the church being the hands and feet of Christ, which is really the reality of what the church is supposed to do, the church is supposed to help in the community to love, to serve, obviously, we know it equips the saints for the work of the ministry so that saints can go and they can minister and they can help people in need. 

It can feel tongue in cheek when you say the church is essential, when the church is not operating the way biblically that churches should operate, when they’re not making that difference in the community. Right. In the book of Acts, that they were so different, they turned the world on its head because they were doing things so counter culturally, but doing it in love, and they were known as disciples because their love for one another.

When you see the church operating in more the biblical fashion of the church, they are incredibly valuable to the community, to the people around them. And this is what you are seeing in this situation where the church is literally being the church, the hands and feet of Jesus, helping and loving and meeting needs. 

Is the Church Essential?

And so in this case, it’s not tongue and cheek to say that the church is essential. Because for the lives of those people who many of them have attempted suicide, they’re struggling with depression, right, the battles they’re dealing with in relationships, and you can go down the list, this is an essential church right now for the needs of the people in that community.

David:

And it’s an interesting look at what the church is there because they are in Santa Clara County, and they consider Santa Clara County to be maybe the really weird county in California. And I would thought, well, San Francisco, there’s no we’re worse than San Francisco. So this is the home of Silicon Valley. And Pastor Mike, I think was telling me that only 2% of Northern California is churched. 

So you’re essentially like on a foreign mission field in many ways. It’s not like he came out of Mississippi or Texas or Oklahoma, Arkansas, Florida, where you know, 60-65% go to church or whatever the number is, you’re talking 2% here, and they are really bright people.

I mean, that Silicon Valley area, there’s just some incredible thinkers there, and that’s the kind of folks that fill the church. And multiple counties around, it’s like he is the only church is open in numerous counties around. And so I talked to people that morning that had driven in from several counties away, because there’s nothing around them that’s open. And so he really has become a regional kind of a church because so many other churches are not standing and serving as they should. 

But he is, and man, people are coming, and they’re coming with needs. And you know, as he said, there’s all sorts of spiritual needs are being met. But it’s quite cool to see a church do what a church is supposed to do in an area where the church is really not wanted, not desired, not appreciated, and even being penalized for being there.

Rick:

Well, Mike’s going to be back with us when we come back from the break. So stay with us, folks, you’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

A Moment from American History

This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. In the early 1700s, the Reverend John Wise preached that all men were created equal, that taxation without representation was tyranny, and that God’s preferred form of government was the consent of the government, all of which is language recognizable in the Declaration of Independence. Why?

Because in 1772, the Sons of Liberty led by founders such as Sam Adams, and John Hancock reprinted and distributed the Reverend Wises sermons. So four years later, much of the Declaration reflected the language of those sermons by John Wise. 

In 1926, on 150th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, President Calvin Coolidge affirmed “The thoughts in the Declaration can very largely be traced back to what John Wise was saying.” Few today know that the Declaration was so strongly influenced by the Reverend John Wise.

For more information on this and other stories, go to wallbuilders.com.

Rick:

Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. And we’re back with Mike McClure, Pastor of Calvary Chapel, San Jose yesterday we had him on. And for months, he has been willing to stand up against the government there in California trying to prevent people from worshipping and gathering. 

And as we were finishing up yesterday, he had shared what he told the Judge in response to all of this and really laid out the Scripture and laid out his heart. And it was just powerful. And we were about to get the response of what the Judge said and we had had to break for the day. So we’re going to jump right back into that interview with Mike McClure from our interview yesterday here on WallBuilders Live.

How Did the Judge Respond?

Rick:

Pastor, wait, I got I’m curious. I mean, what did the Judge, how did he respond? I mean that’s a very good argument, and not just an argument. I mean, you laid your heart out and I would think anybody that cared about the community would want to be on your side.

Mike:

You know, he told me that, at the end, he listened, and he said, that was a very moving testimony. I understand where you’re at, and then he sought to take away our fines. He stayed them. He put them on hold. And then he told me at the end, he says, you know, can you just meet me halfway? And I said, your Honor, you know, I’ve rendered to Caesar what Caesar’s, but everything else Caesar wants belongs to God, I can’t not worship, we cannot gather. 

These things are so important, they’re vital for how God made us, and we’re not trying to spread the virus. I said if we were, people were dying, I would stop, I mean, we would do something different. But obviously, this thing is not just about COVID anymore, there’s other things are going on here.

But I don’t care to get into that. I just want to help people. The only reason we’re really opening the doors is because they need a place to go where they can have hope, because they’re not getting it from anywhere else. 

They’re not getting it from the county. They’re not getting it from the government. They’re going to get it from one place, and that’s from God. That’s what the church is here to do. And you can’t stand in the way of what God wants to do, otherwise, you’re going to be fighting against God. And you’re going to be making a religion, if you start telling us how to worship and you’re defining or redefining Christianity as we know it.

Caught in the Middle

Rick:

That’s right.

Mike:

And he’s backed up. And he said, you know, I go to church, and you’ve opened up your heart with me, so let me open up my heart with you. And I think you definitely heard and saw that what we were doing was something that he couldn’t disagree with. But I’m sure caught in the middle of this trying to figure out almost I get silent…

Rick:

Did he actually put a ruling out yet?

Mike:

He stayed everything up until the 19th and then he asked us if we can have a change of behavior. I asked him if he could please intercede. I said, you know, obviously, the county says we can’t sing; if we sing, they’re going to fine $5,000 every single day, and they’re going to continue to give us these fines and now we’re over almost $2.5 million…

Rick:

$2.5 million, wait, wait, wait, you can’t just fly past that. $2.5 million in fines, simply for the church meeting, and singing and worshiping and serving the community. I got to pause for a second let that sink in. Okay, $2.5 million in fines, the Judge stayed it for a little while, but now what?

The Courts

Mike:

Well, I think he has ruled yet. I’m sure the county has been in his door knocking. But there’s some things that have happened as of late since Friday. You know, we had a day on Thursday just to pray and fast. We just said, hey, we want to join us, we’re just going to pray and fast. And it was our attorney Bob Tyler has just done a great job. He’s able to get into five courts. 

One of them I just got an email that says, it looks like the Supreme Court took just the case, specifically allow us just to be indoors at 25%. Because I think they ruled that we can 2.5 two weeks ago that we can have 25%. Well, our county unfortunately, they just don’t like us so much. 

They went to the Ninth Circuit to say we got to shut this church down. Can you please just give us a stay on this so they can’t meet and they gave it to them. So then our attorney said, well, let’s go back to the Supreme Court since the Ninth Circuit’s not even listening to the Supreme Court. So that’s kind of what’s going on everyone…

Rick:

And you’re still meeting right? You’re currently meeting?

Mike:

We are. Yeah. And we meet every week, and they still show up. I think we have…

Rick:

Yeah. What do they do when they show up? I mean, do they physically try to stop people from going in? Or do they take down license plates? I mean, what’s their enforcement mechanism?

Members of the CIA and NSA Showed Up

Mike:

They have these young 20 year old, who show up who hate church. You know, we’ve all shared the gospel with him, we’ve invited him in. But they can write a fine, they get to pick to fine. If it’s $250, or $5,000 and they give us a $5,000 fine every time, and they’ll walk in and they’ll look around and they’ll say, well, you’re doing this wrong or that wrong. 

And so they’re kind of Judge, Jury and Executioner fine giver. And it’s interesting, I mean, there’s no law enforcement. And people have called and asked, well, was the police showed up?

And like you asked, and I say, well, yeah, we have the police show up every week, we have the sheriff show up, we have a federal Marshal show up, we have people working for the NSA and the CIA they all come in here for church, though, you know, there are not coming here to arrest us.

And I told this to the Judge too, I said, we have so many law enforcement in our church and I’ll ask them, are you enforcing this, and they will say you’re not going to fine an officer in the state that’s going to write a citation for the social distancing or masquerading or any of this stuff. 

Because they know it’s not constitutional. And they know that my superiors aren’t going to cover me if I get sued, and I’m going to get sued, because it doesn’t match up anything in our books and the Penal Code. And so I share that with the Judge, he didn’t really think that was a good argument, but I think it is.

The Health Department

Rick:

Yeah. No, and I can only imagine. I mean, I guess, they’re from the health department. I mean, who are these officials that come in and write you up for 5,000?

Mike:

Yeah, they’re from the health department. So they show up and they just come in street clothes, and they get to write up a little citation, they type it up, and they print it out right there with a portable printer, and then they tape it to our windows.  So a lot of our windows are so covered you can’t see inside. And they’ve been doing this now since I don’t know, what it is, September, October.

Rick:

So Mike, let me ask you this, because we’re out of time. How can people help you? And how can they pray for you? Is there a defense fund that we can donate to help with the attorney’s fees? Is there I mean, obviously, pray for you guys and pray that this judge will have the courage to do the right thing? What else can we do?

Mike:

I think the best thing you can do, and this is from David Barton is do something local. One thing, I mean, you can help us, you could pray. I mean, there’s been some wonderful letters. I’m so blessed just by the number of people that have written us letters and even sent checks toward… 

He Never Left

We had at one time our bank called our note, and they came back and apologized and rescinded that and been gracious to us. But we’re pressured a lot by the county to say they were going to take our property, so we were really in the kind of strait with the bank, but…

Rick:

The bank held your note in the middle of all this?

Mike:

You know, they did. They asked us to pay back what we owed. We had a construction loan, and then they sent us attorney letter saying we had 20 days to comply.

And, you know, the President got involved and found out and called me and actually flew out to the church and apologize. And so I’m blessed. It was a couple of months where we’re just like, I don’t know, everything’s kind of hitting us.

But I would say in the midst of all that God’s been so gracious. And you just see how Jesus said, in this world, we’re going to suffer persecution, but be of good cheer, he’s overcome the world. And that’s not just a statement, for me, it’s really become, he has actually overcome the world. You know, he is in charge.

He is with us. He’s never left us. He’s never forsaken us. But if we don’t step out, we’re going to miss out on seeing him overcome the world, so he wants to join us. Just like in the book of Acts, he’s continuing the book of Acts of the church today.

How We Measure Revival

So I just encourage everyone out there, you know, God wants to use you your life to be courageous, to not be afraid, so don’t be dismayed. Everywhere you go, God’s given you that step where you put your soul, it’s yours, for His kingdom and for His glory. And just like John the Baptist said, John 3:30 that he would increase and I would decrease. 

And I just think is the more that we just lift up the Lord, the more people are going to come to him and I believe. And like David had a great message, I mean this year, “Run to the Roar”, it’s such a great message if anyone hasn’t heard it, you should definitely listen to that.

And just how we need to see reformation and that’s how we measure revival, is to see how things change in our culture, and that’s what we’re to be salt and light. The churches to really be making a difference. And you may be going against the health department, but you’re going to be supporting so many other government institutions. 

And I’ve had a lot of people that have said I’m so glad, thank you that you’re open. And these are people who work for the government, they’re in law enforcement or they have different official roles. And so they’re thankful. You know, they’re fighting a good fight too, they see kind of what’s going on. And so there’s a lot of confusion.

But in the midst of it, I know God’s it work and so I’m just thankful. I mean people that have been praying for us, hey, I’m just thankful for that. I want to encourage you to, if you could do something in your town, do it. 

There’s more and so much more that can be done that God is looking to do. And right now is the time for pastors that are listening, just encourage them open up. It’s not that bad. It’s not bad at all.

We Need the Church

You know, I know that one pastor in Canada that was arrested, but we haven’t seen that happen United States, but we will next time, I think it’s going to get worse. But if we stand for the Lord, for His glory, and love of even our enemies, and those that persecute us, God is going to be glorified and people are going to get saved. 

We have anywhere from 15 to 25 people that come to Christ every week right now. So it’s a real work of the Holy Spirit. I believe that. At the same time, yeah, there’s persecution and difficulty with our beloved health department.

Rick:

You know, Mike, I tell you, brother, we sometimes hear fear breeds fear, panic breeds panic, calm breeds calm, I would say courage breeds courage as well and your courage to stand up and do this and your church willing to do that. 

I hope every pastor that’s listening right now, every church goer that’s listening right now will hear this message and say, I want that to happen in my community. I want my church to stand up and be bold.

We need the fellowship. People are hurting, they need the church. They need the salt and light desperately right now.

What a great example that you guys are being. I’m just thankful for you, brother. I appreciate you coming on and sharing with us. And we definitely will be praying. I mean, you let us know if the legal fees end up, you know, if you all do end up doing a fundraising for the legal fees, we sure would like to encourage our listeners to donate to that. I don’t know if you just ask people to donate to the church or if you have a specific fund set up, but is there a way for people to help with that?

Real Reformation

Mike:

You know, I one thing I didn’t want to do and I really don’t is I don’t want to make I’m not a fundraiser. I’m terrible in asking for money. But I really want to be about the gospel.

So I really don’t want money. I really want people to pray. I know like you said, hey, courage begets courage. 

And same with faith. You know, as you will step out in faith, and do something that’s going to require faith, and we look at a world that’s fearful right now, people that are hopeless, and they’re looking for the truth, and I’ve seen it with our own media who first attacked us, and now they’re asking us and even our own prosecuting attorneys are saying, hey, what’s different about you guys, you seem really genuine?

They’re trying to find out if what you believe is really real to you. And so I just think in America right now, the best thing we could do is put money where it’s going to be the gospel is going to get out. And, you know, I’m hoping you don’t have to pay these fees. But my whole purpose is to see, man, God be glorified and for the country to turn back to the Lord and for a real reformation to take place. 

And man, I’m just blessed again just for what David’s doing. And I encourage pastors, a lot of them, they don’t know history, you know, I didn’t until I really went to wallbuilders.com and started download and listening and we’ve had David here a number of times, and just to know our history and to know the Bible, man, that’s the best thing anyone could do is listening today, study those two things and see what God can do and just pray for revival across our country. That’s what we need.

Thank You Pastor Mike

Rick:

Amen. So good. Pastor Mike, appreciate you, brother. God bless you, man. We’ll be praying and we look forward to having you back with a victory radio program about the victory that you’re going to experience at the end of all of this. God bless you, man. Keep up the great work, we’ll have you back soon.

Mike:

Alright. God bless you. Thank you so much, Rick.

Rick:

Stay with us, folks, we’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Patriot Academy

Have you ever wanted to learn more about the United States Constitution but just felt like, man, the classes are boring or it’s just that old language from 200 years ago or I don’t know where to start? People want to know but it gets frustrating because they don’t know where to look for truth about the Constitution either.

Well, we’ve got a special program for you available now called Constitution Alive with David Barton and Rick Green. And it’s actually a teaching done on the Constitution at Independence Hall in the very room where the Constitution was framed. We take you both to Philadelphia, the cradle of liberty and Independence Hall and to the WallBuilders library, where David Barton brings the history to life to teach the original intent of our Founding Fathers.

We call it The Quickstart Guide to the Constitution, because in just a few hours through these videos, you will learn the citizens guide to America’s Constitution, you’ll learn what you need to do to help save our constitutional republic. It’s fun, it’s entertaining, and it’s going to inspire you to do your part to preserve freedom for future generations. It’s called Constitution Alive with David Barton and Rick Green. You can find out more information on our website now and wallbuilders.com.

Rick:

We’re back here on WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. And thanks to Mike McClure for doing the interview.

And man, David, Tim, I mean, we need more pastors like this, but you know, I mean the argument before for the Judge, I think you nailed it, David, yesterday when you said, it was like an apologetics of what the church is all about. I mean, this is why the church exists in the first place. And when the church recedes, man, the pain increases in a community.

The City Has Targeted Them

David:

Well, he was talking even yesterday about how there’s so much of what the government sees is just an institution and not necessarily what they do in the community. And it’s like he was explaining to the Judge, this is what the church is what is supposed to do. These are the needs in the community we’re meeting that helped you guys. I mean, this is actually a help to you: all the suicides, all the things that are happening and he’s dealing with, but it has been such a battle for them.

The fact that the city has targeted them and even though the Supreme Court came down and told Governor Newsom, hey, you can’t shut down indoor services, he’s still being fined for. I mean, it’s like the Health Department says, we don’t care what the Supreme Court says or what anybody says. We don’t like you guys.

And so in talking to him, they’ve been almost five months continuously in court. And buster heart, he was telling me, the attorney is just worn out. I mean, this has been his life for like five months, because every week they’re getting hit with service after service after service, and they’ve got you know, as he mentioned, a prayer and fasting service they have on Thursdays.

And when I spoke, I spoke there three times at Sunday, so they got fined three times when I was there, and then all through the week, and it just keeps mounting up and mounting up. And the attorney is just flat worn out.

So we’ve contacted some of the national groups to see if they won’t come in and help, we think there’s some help on the way for them as far as the change of attorney. Because of the guy, I mean, bless his heart, he’s got a practice, but this has been his whole thing for five months. And, you know, he’s just his family’s worn out and he’s worn out.

It’s a Great Story

So this is a real battle. And Pastor Mike has stood in there in this thing and he had the emotional up and downs. Because you know, what are you going to do when you got 1 million in fines, or 2 million in fines?

What do I do now that the mortgage company is calling in my loan? There was just so many things that have hit him. And he’s just been able to ride through them and keep a steady keel. But it’s been a rough and emotional roller coaster for him.

But it again goes back to how important this is to him and how core and crucial. And I would challenge anybody to come up with the last time that Rick in your case, you said what can we do to help raise money for you, he says, look, I really don’t want any money, put the money where the gospel go… Man, what a heart you see in Pastor Mike. And so it’s a great story. But unfortunately, it’s not yet resolved and there’s still a lot to go in this battle. But this is an indication of what is still going around the country right now.

Rick:

And the need for more pastors to do exactly this. I found it interesting when he talked about, I can’t remember if it was yesterday or today when he said that other churches were actually meeting in their church building. So even meeting the needs of these other churches in the community, you just got to stand, I mean, people will rally.

And we’ve seen that happen with Rob McCoy’s church and Thousand Oaks and other churches across the country. So it really does come down to which churches are going to be willing to do the civil disobedience. And this is a proper form of civil disobedience, I think, the Founders would have been proud of.

This is the Kind of Church America Needs

Tim:

And guys, I think it’s also worth noting that this is a really great time to pray for that Judge, because that Judge is a believer. And that Judge, you know, Pastor already pointed out that he stayed the order. It seems that his heart wants to go there, but it’s almost like he’s battling that kind of academic, liberal, judicial mindset of well.

I know this isn’t really right, but I think I have to. We need to pray that that God works on his heart that he has the courage and boldness to stand up and do what is right and what is original intent, constitutional, not this modern judicial activism where they’re going to follow this crazy mindset of really California interpretation of government and politics.

So we need to be praying for this judge right now also, that God will give him courage and boldness that also will help this church. Because Rick, as you pointed out, how cool is it when so many other churches are shut down that he’s saying, hey, come use our facility, right, guys, you know, all these churches come have a place so you can help meet the needs of the people that you serve.

This is absolutely the kind of church that we need more of in America. But we also don’t want them to have to bear these ridiculous fines that are being leveled against them. And the Judge can certainly help change that if that Judge will have the courage to follow the Constitution, so we need to pray for that judge as well.

David:

You know, one of the things we talked about in one of the services and Mike mentioned several times was getting involved locally. And if you get involved locally, and if you have the right mayor who is over the bureaucrats, then you’re not going to have the kind of nonsense where these bureaucrats are coming in every week and just covering all of his glass doors with all these fines and tickets. Somebody will call them down and say no, this has got to stop.

We Must Be Involved Locally

And so he’s got a Judge, you know, Tim, as you said, apparently has the right heart but this is why everybody needs to look in their own community around them because you don’t know when something like this might happen to you or to a church or to an organization you’re part of or whatever. And you need the right people in place so that when it comes up you don’t have a $2.5 million dollar fine or whatever it’s going to be.

But that’s why we were talking about how important it is to be involved locally. People see national stuff, they see state stuff, they rarely pay attention to local stuff, which is why most mayors are elected with about 4% of the adult population voting.

So that’s something that this is a good example for all of us that we need to look at our own communities and make sure that we’re in good shape in those communities that we won’t have to face something like Pastor Mike is having to find California.

Standing Up To Tyranny In A Christlike Way, Part 2 – With Pastor Mike McClure

Rick:

Alright, friends, that is all of our time for today. Again, if you happen to tune in the middle of the program, and you missed the first program with Pastor Mike McClure, it’s on our website. In fact, today’s program and yesterday’s program are both, the two parts are available at wallbuilderslive.com today.

So be sure to go there, share it with your friends or family, get it in the hands of every pastor in the country if you can. Let’s get this nation open back up. Let’s get our churches opened back up.

Let’s meet the needs of our community. Enough is enough. We have the science. We have the data. We know this can be safely done. It’s just got to be done. We’ve got to end the nonsense. We’ve got to end the insanity. We are definitely in Romans 1:22 situation, “professing themselves to be wise they became fools”, and that foolishness is not going to stop until the churches in America stop it.

We hope that you’ll be a part of that. Again, share these programs with your friends and family. Find out more at wallbuilderslive.com. We appreciate you listening today to WallBuilders Live!