Stupid Shepherds & Scattered Sheep- Interview With Dr. Piper: Today, we have specail guest, Dr. Piper, on to talk about the list of duplicitous article headlines that are becoming more prevalent in our society. Our nation”€™s cultural elites and mainstream media have lurched from one absurdity to another. Tune in now to learn more!

Air Date: 11/14/2018

Guest: Dr. Piper

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture


Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture.  This is WallBuilders Live! Where we”€™re talking about today”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture. Always from a Biblical, historical, and Constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton America’s premier historian and our founder at WallBuilders. My name is Rick Greenham, a former Texas legislator and Tim Barton is with us. He”€™s a national speaker, pastor, and president of WallBuilders. And you can find out about all three of us at That”€™s where you can also get a list of past programs, list of stations you can listen to past programs there in the archive section. Lot of great information at

Then over at a wealth of information for you. All kinds of books, DVDs, programs, curriculum; things you can use to inspire and equip yourself and your family to help us restore America’s constitution.

And then of course, if you are going to restore the republic if we’re going to be a strong nation we’ve got to educate folks, and you can help us do that through this program. You can become a financial donor for us right there at Come alongside us make that monthly contribution that helps keep this program on the air and brings great interviews and all kinds of great constitutional information to educate folks. Check that out at

David, Tim this program doesn’t happen without financial support. Let’s not sugarcoat it. I mean it takes lives, fortunes, sacred honor –  it takes the finances to make this possible as well.


You’re right Rick, and we really appreciate those supporters who have come alongside. They’ve helped this program go all over the nation and literally all over the world, the podcast now. It’s amazing how many countries pick this up even American military across the world, so it is an opportunity for folks to get educated and actually to become equipped to help reach those around them. And so our supporters help us do this, and we appreciate that. We try to make it really easy to be a supporter. You can get on your smart device and give. And so there’s so many ways you can go to and see more there at the Web site.



Part of what’s happening when they make donations is it makes it possible for us to bring these programs on the air and educate people. And one of the reasons that’s so important is because you know you’ve got to you’ve got to actually lead in a culture, you’ve got to actually not assume that the torch of freedom is a self-sustaining flame. It’s got to be stoked and guarded. It’s got to be instilled in every generation. And that’s what we’re doing here on the program and if you don’t do that, if you don’t lead if you don’t have shepherds that lead effectively and lead positively and ethically then frankly the flock goes crazy. I mean that’s the scripture we’re going to be talking about today Dr. Everett Piper will be sharing it with us later on in the program. But let me just read it from the beginning. Jeremiah said, “A conspiracy exists among my people they’ve turned their back to the iniquities of those who refuse to hear my words. Therefore the Lord has decreed disaster among them because of the evil they’ve done for the shepherds are stupid therefore they have not prospered, and their flock is scattered.” When Dr. Piper comes on later, that’s actually the title of his article, “€œStupid shepherds and scattered sheep.”€ David, Tim we get scattered sheep if we aren’t good shepherds and we don’t let good shepherds in the nation.

Dr. Everett Piper


Well, he points out some of the really crazy things that are going on in the culture and just to point to a couple.

I mean you’ve got Senator Elizabeth Warren who does a DNA test that says she’s not Cherokee, but she doubles down on I am Cherokee. I don’t care about the DNA test. Wait a minute; you can say that. You’ve got Corey Booker who said well you know the American justice system starts with the presumption of guilt. No, it doesn’t. That’s exactly opposite.

And so what you’ve got and he gives so many good examples of how right now, we have completely turned things over. And I was I was going through the article, it reminded me of a book that was written back in 1865.

Now, if I tell you 1865 and Lewis Carroll does that give you any clue what we’re talking about?



Alice in Wonderland World


Lewis Carroll, 1865, the book was called Alice in Wonderland. It is called literary nonsense. That is the genre it”€™s in and literary nonsense. And what happens is she falls into a world where the ridiculous is the norm. And in that world, I mean it’s up is down and down is up and everything is twisted around, and it’s kind of like we’re an “€œAlice in Wonderland” kind of world right now.

And I was looking and came up with a list of some pretty interesting quotes from this nonsensical world they’ve got. So, here are some of the quotes. They sound pretty good but when you think about it’s like, “€œthat’s ridiculous.”€

So, one of the conversations is going along. And the queen says, “€œwhy, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”€ What? Six impossible things before breakfast? And you start thinking about you. That’s nonsense. But she says it with great conviction.

Then the Cheshire Cat says to Alice, “€œWe’re all mad here. Yeah, we are. You know it’s all crazy in this place.”€ Then there’s this comment, “€œIt takes all the running you can do to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast.”€ That’s nonsense. And here’s one more says, “€œit would have made a dreadfully ugly child, but it makes a rather handsome pig.”€ It’s like, what?


That one I am I get on board with. I get it. I think I know that one, Yes okay got it.


You look at what’s happening in the culture right now, and it’s like, this is what he was doing as fantasy in 1865 in a book, but it’s becoming reality right now. So, you know Dr. Piper goes through a number of items here.

So we thought this would be a good thing to do. Rick as you pointed out, he reads that Bible verse, and it talks about stupid shepherds and scattered sheep. If we just said that phrase and if you just read the article title without knowing that it was a Bible verse you’d go, “€œOh, that’s a really mean thing to say.”€




No, actually I just quoted a Bible verse. So, that’s kind of how nonsensical we’ve got this. We even think that just saying what God says is now a mean thing to do. And that’s part of the up is down, down is up world of Alice in Wonderland.


Well, we”€™re going to take a quick break. Dr. Piper will be with us to talk about that article regarding stupid shepherds and a scattered flock. Stay with us. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.


Front Sight Training Course

Rick Green here, from WallBuilders Live. What do Dennis Prager, Larry Elder, Ben Shapiro, Rick Greene, Tim Barton, David Barton, have in common other than the fact that they’re conservative commentators that defend the Constitution?

They’re raving about Front Sight Firearms Training Institute. Go to my website right now at You can watch the video of Dennis Prager training at Front Sight, or Larry Elder, or Tim Barton and myself out there. It’s an opportunity for you to learn how to defend yourself and your family. It is a fantastic place to train. They train 30 to 40,000 people a year, and they’re just wonderful to work with. You can go with us. We’re headed back out.

We’re going to have a great time out there, and if you’re a supporter of WallBuilders, we’re going to treat you. If you’re a donor of WallBuilders, you”€™ll be able to go to this Front Sight class for free. It normally costs a thousand dollars, go to right now. You’ll see that it’s a thousand dollars to attend their two-day class. You are going to be able to go for free if you’re a supporter of WallBuilders Live.

So, check out that information at and join us. We are going once a month for the next three months. You can pick one of those classes. All of our previous classes have filled up. Make sure that you get online today and get signed up. Whether you’ve never shot before, or you’ve shot your whole life, you will enjoy this class. You”€™ll enjoy the fellowship. We’ll be training on the range during the day and studying the Constitution at night. What a great combination. Check it out today at


Stupid Shepherds and Scattered Sheep


Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here at WallBuilders Live. Dr. Everett Piper here from Oklahoma Wesleyan University.  Frequent guest here on WallBuilders Live and just a great warrior in the cause we appreciate him so much. Glad you’ve got time for us today Dr. Piper. Thanks for coming back on.


Rick, as I’ve always said, I’m always honored to join you. So thanks.


Well man, another great article you have out, called “€œStupid Shepherds and Scattered Sheep.”€ And initially, some people may hear that title think well, “€œDr. Piper, that’s not very nice. You’re being offensive.”€ But you’re actually quoting scripture here, so let’s talk about what you mean by stupid shepherds and scattered sheep.


Well, it’s a quote from Jeremiah. He says, “€œa conspiracy exists among my people. They have turned back to the iniquities of those who refuse to hear my words. Therefore, the Lord has decreed disaster against them because of the evil they’ve done.”€ And then he goes on, and he says, “€œfor the shepherds are stupid, and therefore they have not prospered, and their flock has scattered.”€

The Big Lie of the Left

So I’m using that passage out of Jeremiah to obviously reference our day and our time and I watch what I’ve called, and I think others have called the Big Lie – The Big Lie of the left. I mean it’s just lunacy. What we watch in the Daily News. The Big Lie, the reversal of terms what Isaiah said; Bitter sweet, sweet bitter, good evil, and evil good.

Jeremiah tells us that it’s a conspiracy against my people because we’ve refused to hear the words of the Lord and the shepherds if you will, the leaders of our country, are acting foolishly. They”€™re stupid, and we shouldn’t be surprised to watch the sheep scatter because we have no consistent leadership.


Well, you detail in the article just some examples of some of the craziness that’s going on.

And as I was reading through the list, I was thinking any one of these things, if you could get a time machine and go back even 20, 25 years and that one thing happened, people would laugh and say, that’s terrible, let’s stop that. That’s crazy we shouldn’t allow for that instead of embracing it like we like we are today. But all of these combined, that’s how fast the culture has changed to exactly what Jeremiah warned about and exactly what you were warning about in the article. But just run through some of the things that you listed in the article.

They Are All Liars


  1. And all of these are just lies. They are reversals. They’re self-refuting. Just think of this: Elizabeth Warren, she doubles down and insisting that she’s a Cherokee. Even though her own DNA tests that she just released, proves she’s not.

Cory Booker. He argues that “€œjustice starts with the presumption of guilt and any evidence of innocence doesn’t matter.”€

Nancy Pelosi says our second amendment rights should be curtailed without cause or due process and that collateral damage, a military term used to describe dead civilians, by the way, should be expected in the fight against those who don’t share her view.

Democrats, too numerous to count, openly encourage undocumented immigrants, i.e., those people who’ve entered the country illegally and do not have the rights of citizenship to vote in the upcoming elections. I mean it goes on and on. I’ll list just one or two more.

Rosie O’Donnell, she pleads that the U.S. military gets involved in removing a duly elected president of the United States from Office. This is called a coup. In case you all were wondering.

Eric Holder, the former attorney general. He calls for violence against his political opposition.

All these people do this under the banner of tolerance. They all do it under the banner of inclusion. They all are waving placards of “€˜love trumps hate”€™ but yet every action and every word that comes from them is, and they demonstrate the exact opposite of what they claim to be.

Gosnell Banned from Facebook


I got to ask you about a few of these other ones on the list, even the Facebook banning of Gosnell. The promotion of the movie Gosnell claiming that’s too political.


Yeah, I mean stop and think about it. Gosnell has been banned from Facebook. They won’t allow the advertising to take place on Facebook. They say that it’s political commentary.

Well, everybody should recognize Gosnell is a factual depiction of a medical doctor who was convicted. Who was convicted to life plus 30 years for killing three women in his botched abortions in his Women’s Medical Society clinic in Philadelphia. He was also found guilty of butchering at least seven infants by severing their spine after they were born. But yet, Facebook won’t allow that to be promoted because it’s too political.

You have to wonder what they would do if somebody wanted to do a film on Josef Mengele and his medical work in Auschwitz. Would they ban that too because it’s too political?

Again it’s surreal. It’s itself. You can’t make it up. That Facebook actually thinks that this is political commentary, to try to protect women who are being murdered in clinics and children who are actually having their spines severed after they born.


And the movie’s incredible, by the way. Very powerful. But in the movie, I mean the prosecutor herself that goes after this guy was a pro-abortion, you know, individual that said this is too far. This is had to be prosecuted. But like you say, they claim it to be political but all of these items that you’re listing. I mean they’re just.

Socialism is Gaining Popularity

We’re drinking this stuff as a culture, I say we as a culture, just drinking this stuff without question. Without saying, Wait a minute, that that doesn’t make sense. I mean that’s why one of the ones that you point out socialism is gaining so much popularity in our country even when we know it destroys countries. We know that we know the result of this and you point out we’re watching Venezuela collapse under the weight of socialism and yet here we are, adopting the same policies in smaller chunks.


Yeah, I mean again, the great reversal, the great lie. Socialism gains popularity. While we’re watching Venezuela collapse under the weight of socialism. So, what are we doing? What are we thinking?

We got Hillary Clinton supporting her husband who was obviously guilty of using women when he was in a position of power but yet she marches with me too – who criticizes men who use women because the men are in a position of power. So it makes no sense.

The left’s agenda is an agenda that always collapses of its own weight because it’s a lie. It’s the big lie. It’s the emperor without clothes. And we need to speak up and say so even if we’re ridiculed in the process of doing so.

We Need To Step Back And About Our Responses


And there you go. Now we move to that to the action. So how do we respond to all these things that are happening ahead?

Kelly Kolberg, I don’t know if you know her or not but, she’s started this American Association of Evangelicals. And one of the things that she pointed out, that I thought was so right on. She said that politically correct people need to use their brains and their hearts and think about what causes suffering and what causes flourishing. In other words, she”€™s saying, let’s think about the consequences of things we’re doing. Everything you’ve listed in this article if people would step back and get some perspective and just think through these things. Use our brains. You begin to see the lie. But the problem is, we’re emotionally charged right now and just responding to the emotional stimuli. So if we get people to slow down stop for a second and think about these things.

How do you challenge? What do you challenge evangelicals to do in this environment? I mean, where do you get your information because a lot of them are going to respond to this and say, you know, that’s why I don’t even pay attention at all. I just shut this stuff out and don’t even think about it. Well, that’s the wrong extreme as well right?

We Have An Obligation To Speak


Well, I think evangelicals, if we truly believe in the “€˜Evangel”€™ – the gospel, the good news. The biblical worldview, the Bible as the inerrant truth that guides us and in that good news. If we truly believe that, then we have to recognize that we don’t have any option but to speak.




You’ve quoted it. And I love to quote it. Bonhoeffer’s admonition that, “€œnot to speak is to speak and not to act just as silence in the face of evil is evil itself.”€ God will not hold us guiltless. We have an obligation to speak. We have an obligation to act and not doing so is akin to the evil itself. You become complicit in the deception, in the lie, in the sin if you remain silent. We have to recognize that.

Ask Rhetorical Questions

And second, a good rhetorical question in the face of some of this nonsense always works. I call it the Dr. Phil question, “€œHow’s that one working for ya?”€

How’s that working for you? How”€™s socialism working for you? How”€™s sexual nihilism working for you? How is amorality working for you? How is the duplicity and self-defeating claims of the Left working for you? How’s the economy working for you?

If we embrace these stupid ideas and often that will cause even our adversary to pause because they’ve got to defend the pragmatic outcome and there really isn’t any positive outcome to these terrible ideas.


OK, we got to read this quote from Jeremiah one more time, “€œa conspiracy exists among my people they have turned back to the iniquities of those who refuse to hear my words. Therefore the Lord has decreed disaster against them because of the evil they have done for the shepherds are stupid therefore they have not prospered, and their flock is scattered.”€

We Get To Choose

So, Dr. Piper before I let you go so the one of the things that we should do is stand up, pay attention, respond to these things and choose better shepherds right? I mean in our nation we get to choose who the shepherds are going to be.


Absolutely. That’s the beauty of our constitutional republic. If a shepherd is leading in the wrong direction and he’s foolish, he’s ill-informed, or he’s deceptive, and he’s proven himself to be a liar, we have the freedom and the responsibility to go find another shepherd. And if we don’t, we’re complicit in the problem.


All right, that’s a great admonition for folks who should vote but also then let your voice be heard after the elections as well. Dr. Piper, always a pleasure, Sir. Thank you so much for your time for coming on today. And Oklahoma Wesleyan, let’s give that Oklahoma Website real quick.  



All right brother. Thank you, man. Appreciate your time.


All right. Blessings.


Stay with us folks. Be right back with David and Tim Barton.


This Precarious Moment Book


This is David Barton. I want to let about a brand new book we have called This Precarious Moment, Six Urgent Steps That Will Save You, Your family, and Our Country. Jim Garlow and I have co-authored this book, and we take six issues that are hot in the culture right now.

Issues that we’re dealing with, issues such as immigration, race relations, our relationship with Israel, the rising generation Millennials, and the absence of the church in the culture wars, and where American heritage is our godly heritage. We look at all six of those issues right now that are under attack, and we give you both Biblical and historical perspective on those issues that provide solutions on what each of us can do right now to make a difference.

These are all problems that are solvable if we’ll get involved. So you can grab the book This Precarious Moment and find out what you can do to make a difference. This Precarious Moment is available at



We”€™re back on WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us and special thanks to Dr. Everett Piper for joining us. Dr. Piper is President of Oklahoma Wesleyan University. I encourage you to check that out if you’re thinking about where to send your kids to college you want to be under some good leadership. Dr. Piper is one of those good shepherds that we encourage people to learn from.

Back with David and Tim Barton. Now, guys what were you thinking of when he was rattling off that list of the crazy things some of those national shepherds are doing right now?


Well, I was thinking how first of all I recognized most of the things he was saying. And I remember at the time when a lot of those things happened thinking of the inconsistency of what was happening, or it was said at the moment it happened. But him having that list together from the article.  Having it together on the list was really so revealing. And you know dad, as you were mentioned even before the interview. This kind of Alice in Wonderland, this fantasy world where nobody really understands reality and reality is forever changed. That was my thought is this is kind of what we’ve come to. And the media and the American people are embracing so much of this nonsense. You know, it’s one thing for somebody to do something stupid it’s something else for people to embrace that person doing stupid things while they’re doing them.


I’m going to be violent to show you how peaceful I am. And so I’m going to hate you so I can show you how tolerant I am. That is crazy.

Who’s Calling Them Out


And the fact is nobody is calling them out for that while they’re doing it right. When you have all these news media outlets, and you know the weather. Right. People are watching CNN or FOX or nothing. Right. The Daily Wire or The Blaze. They can pick whatever they want. Fine. But any time something like this happens every person who has any level of logic or comprehension should be going, “€œNow, that doesn’t seem right.”€ And if you’re in the news media, that’s probably something to talk about. And yet it seems that none of these things get covered the way they should be, where somebody is pointing out how ludicrous this is. That they’re saying something is actually contradicting themselves in the middle of their statement, and they get away with it


But they’re going to get away with it if nobody calls them on it. Right. So somebody has got to call him on it. Thank you, Dr. Piper, for calling him on it. I think it’s important that we bring attention to it here today.

And I frankly encourage people not to be afraid to say the emperor has no clothes. When some of these ridiculous things happen, we’re so afraid that we’re going to be the ones called names because we actually say, you know that just doesn’t seem right that that’s happening because that’s become the greatest sin in America now – is to actually say there’s a right and wrong and what somebody is doing is a bad idea.

Silence Becomes Endorsement


Well, actually silence becomes an endorsement. And if you remember back in the Old Testament when Aaron and Moses were together. Moses got in trouble, and God told Moses because of that, you’re not going to the promised land. And He said by the way Aaron neither are you.

And Aaron”€™s like, What did I do? Well, you didn’t say anything when Moses made the wrong statement. You kept your mouth shut. And so that’s kind of like going to law with it. So Aaron was not allowed to enter the Promised Land because he did not stand up against what Moses said when Moses was wrong for saying it. And so that’s where one of the things you see in the Bible that silence actually is an endorsement of what is wrong when you don’t say something to the point and raise the standard say that’s wrong.

Old Testament Prophets Spoke Up


And one of the things that you always see from the prophets in the Old Testament is how often they went and addressed when something was wrong. They were bold and willing to say it, and many of them suffered greatly for saying something was wrong when it actually was wrong. But you had leaders who weren’t afraid to say it was right and wrong. It wasn’t always popular. They weren’t always well received for doing it. But there were people saying this is right and that’s wrong, and we just don’t have enough of them in culture today.

But as you guys pointed out as one of the reasons we love Dr. Piper so much because he’s one of those voices. Sometimes it seems like one of the lone voices out there crying in the wilderness. However, he is so good at helping uphold a standard and saying, No this is right, that’s wrong, we shouldn’t do that. Let’s make sure we do what’s right.”€


Well, that”€™s the reason frankly we do the program too right, guys?

I mean, it’s actually saying, here’s a biblical, historical, constitutional application on this issue instead of just saying “€œoh, we don’t want to raise the point that this is what somebody saying is ludicrous and fantasy.”€

Instead, we’re going to say, OK you know what, we’ll let them have their voice. Let them speak, but then we need to analyze that and respond to that based on a biblical, historical and constitutional analysis. That’s what we do every day here on WallBuilders Live.

Just One Or Two


That’s one of the things we really look for in the programs, and we get great feedback. Is this really is helping equip people to go forth and make a change in their community.

And all you have to do is touch your own sphere of influence. You don’t have to change your state or your city or your nation. You have to change a few people around you just touch one or two and if you change one or two that starts a wave. That’s how you really get a wave.

I mean we’ve looked for even a Christianity, 33% of the world professes Christianity. If every Christian would just bring one other Christian a year to know Christ. In two years 66% of the world will be Christian, and a year after that the whole world will be Christian. We can do that in two years.

And that’s only with everyone just sharing with one other person. So don’t get in your mind that I have to make a radical difference and I’ve got to go convert a thousand people to my viewpoint, and I’ve got to help them see how crazy they are. No.

All you have to do is just talk to one person, talk to two. Talk to your social media group whatever that is. Just put your opinions out there and yeah you may get beat up for it, but you’re gonna change some minds along the way, and that’s what’s really key. And so that’s part of what we do every day on WallBuilders Live, is give ways for the average person to be able to make a difference. And if average people will do that, that’s what turns the culture around and gets it back in the right direction.

Leaders Need To Speak Out

And Rick we were talking even at the beginning that you know Dr. Piper was talking about how the shepherds and leaders need to speak out, and they do.

The other thing I would point to is there’s a great passage in Isaiah 56 where God talks about how we’re watchmen. And he said the problem I got with my watchmen and watchmen are people who call out things that are wrong, call out dangers that are coming, call out an enemy that is starting to appear in attack.

And he says, and this is his words right out of King James, he says, “€œMy watchman they’re ignorant, and they’re all dumb dogs.”€ Dumb dogs. What’s a dumb dog? In old language, it meant they were unable to speak. They’re like mute. They can’t say anything. And so what’s happened is leaders have become silent. They don’t bark when they should bark. You should bark when an enemy comes into the yard if you’re a watchdog. You ought to let people know that hey we’ve got a problem. We get the bad guys in the yard, and you start barking.  

Individuals Need to Start Barking

What’s happening is our leaders, and as individuals, we’re not barking. We’re not letting people know what’s there. And so you know I love what Dr. Pyper was saying too. This is where the free market comes in. If you’ve got a church leader who refuses to bark, just move yourself to a different church. Take the free market and get over there where you get a watchdog or a shepherd that does care.

But don’t put it on the shepherd. You need to be doing this as well. You need to be using your voice to sound out on this.


Every single person listening has a voice to be heard. They’ve got values that need to be counted. Get engaged. Don’t be silent. Don’t be afraid to stand up. Always speak truth in love but be willing to speak.

Use Your Voice

Come alongside us and help us speak a little louder. Help us get our voice out there, even more, you can do that at by making a contribution you can share this program through Facebook and Twitter and all your social media apps. Use your voice. Let’s make sure that we’re doing our part. We really owe it to those who sacrifice for our freedom.

Lincoln said we should have an increased devotion to the cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion. We honor those who came before us and sacrificed for our freedom by living that freedom and participating in it and defending it in the next generation.

Thanks for listening today. From WallBuilders Live.