Are The Tax Cuts For Real? Interview With Congressman Jim Jordan: Pew Research has documented that this has been the most productive Congress in over 30 years. In fact, by June they had already hit that 30-year mark and have continued to do more since! But what has Congress done? We certainly haven’t heard much on the news. In this episode, we interview Congressman Jim Jordan to answer that question!
On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton
Air Date: 12/18/2017
Guest: Congressman Jim Jordan (OH)
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Transcription note: As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.
Faith And The Culture
Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we talk about today’s hottest topics on policy and faith, all throughout the culture. All of it from a Biblical, historical, and Constitutional perspective.
And today we’ve got David Barton with us. He’s America’s premier historian and our founder here at WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker, pastor, and president of WallBuilders. And my name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator.
All three of us you can find more about at our radio website – WallBuildersLive.com. You can also get some of the past programs over the last few months and a list of those 300 or so stations around the country carrying the program.
And then at WallBuilders.com – a lot of great information available for you there. And actually, you’re down to the wire. Just–what do we got — a week left for Christmas? You might could still get some good stuff there shipped in. But even if they don’t get there in time to get them under the tree you can still give them to your friends and family going into 2018. Give them the gift of freedom.
Most Productive Congress in Over 30 Years
David and Tim, speaking of that, the year’s almost done and man we’ve had a lot of good news throughout the year and looking forward to hopefully a lot more good news next year. So, today’s kind of wrap up on the legislation from this year. And later in the program, Congressman Jim Jordan will be with us to talk about some of the things that might even happen in the last couple of weeks and then going into 2018. So, we’ve got a lot to cover today.
Yeah, a lot to cover and not only legislation from this year. I would just say government policy from this year. I would include Trump in that as well. Congress has done a lot. Pew Research has already documented that this has been the most productive Congress in over 30 years, which, I doubt that you heard that on CNN.
I was just thinking, yeah, if we’re saying Congress has done a lot, there’s certainly not a lot that we’ve heard about. We’ve heard about Russia a lot, collusion and e-mails. I really don’t recall a whole lot of news–
And that is starting to come back and bite them, by the way. That Russia stuff is really starting to look like they should have dropped that months ago when they should have dropped it.
Right. That notion that you’re pointing a finger at somebody and, really, you’re the guilty party in the midst of it. Yeah, they — it looks like they’re really in trouble on this one. But to your point, we really don’t hear much of Congress having done positive things. The fact that this is one of the most productive Congresses in how many years – since when?
Well, and, way back — already back in June, they had already been the most productive Congress in 30 years.
We’ve done a whole bunch more since then. And when I say “we” I mean the federal government. President Trump has signed another number of bills. By the way, Pew measures it by how many substantive laws get passed. And that’s stuff like not naming post offices, and highways, and stuff, but actually getting something done – a real bill passed.
And we’ve already had more — in June we’d already had more passed than the Congress in 30 years. So, we’re way past that now.
Reciprocity for Concealed Carry Passes House
Which isn’t always a good thing, right? I mean, just passing legislation isn’t something we’re always — typically not for because it’s sometimes more government. But in this case, we’re talking about good legislation for the most part. There’s some not so great stuff that came through as well. But, man, we’ve covered a lot of good news Fridays talking about things that move through the Congress that, frankly we didn’t think had a chance.
Even reciprocity for carrying your concealed license got through the House and good chance that it will get through the Senate before the end of the year.
Well, and having said that, even though they’ve gotten all the stuff done, the House has still passed more than 300 measures the Senate hadn’t picked up yet.
So, we’d really be down the road. But, what the Senate has picked up has been substantial.
Well, and, guys, even following this thought of all that we’ve done and, Rick, you said it’s sometimes not a great thing if Congress is passing all these new things. Well, one of the really positive elements is how much we’ve cut from regulation–
Mounds of Regulations Removed
–right. How much President Trump has gotten rid of so much nonsense with these these different department heads now that before they can pass anything new, they have to get rid of a couple of old ones. It’s just — it’s phenomenal how much red tape is being removed. So, not only has Congress done a lot — again, the Senate has not helped with how far we could have gone.
But, at this point, we’ve also had mounds of regulations removed which is so encouraging. And, guys, on top of the fact that the Senate has also now confirmed more judges than Obama had in his first year in office. So, even though we’re pointing to the Senate and going, “These guys are ridiculous,” and they are, it still has been a very productive year on a lot of levels that we just don’t hear about it.
And, Tim, just to reiterate what you said about the agencies because that’s kind of that unsung heroes kind of part of this whole story because that stuff does not get covered. But, when you get good leadership at the top that can filter down in a lot of those agencies – even though they’re filled with the lifetime bureaucrats that are hard to — it’s tough fight against them.
But, Trump really did set a tone with his appointments that, “We’re going to shake things up” and they’ve done that. And there’s been a lot of great victories there.
No Corporation Pays Taxes
Well, not only that, but when you start talking about cutting regulations. As a business owner, I know for sure that regulations affect cost. And, by the way, don’t ever think that a corporation pays taxes – it never does. Everything that it cost us to do business we pass on to consumers which means higher prices. So, you cannot tax a corporation.
What you’re really saying is, “Say that you’re a tax incorporation, but we’re actually going to tax the taxpayers.” Because no corporation pays taxes – they pass all those costs on.
The same with the FDA, WalMart, all these guys who get hit at the end of the year, all these Christmas crime – we’re all paying for that because WalMart has to raise their prices, as does Target, as does Lowes, as does everybody else to cover that. So, businesses don’t pay anything like that, it goes on to us. When you start cutting regulations — and it’s been estimated up to 25 percent of the cost of running a business is the cost of conforming to regulations.
Imagine what that would be like. They’ve estimated that that would be an extra fourteen thousand dollars a year in the pocket of every American family if there were less regulations – that’s a lot of money. Oh, do I need to point out that this is the first time in 12 years that the GDP has grown by 3 percent in three straight quarters?
Hey, guess what, maybe this regulation cutting has actually having an economic stimulus thing that’s really helping the economy and people are starting to feel the impact of that. So, that’s one you haven’t heard them talking about, but it’s been 12 years since we’ve had that.
I would point to even the fact that Trump withdrew from the Paris Accords and nobody’s talking about that much, but that saved several hundred billion dollars. Not to mention all the regulations that go on businesses with that. Not to mention the fact that we’ve not had a temperature increase in 21 years, so why in the heck are we still in a global warming accord anyway? But he’s — there’s just so many things we can point to that are good news that we just don’t hear much about.
Well, and guys even philosophical, right, like the idea that he’s recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
Yeah, big one.
A Government That’s Pro Israel
So, not only do we have regulation issues, and economic issues, and we can look at Congress, or the Senate confirmations of judges. And even philosophically, we have a government that recognizes Jerusalem as the capital Israel and is really just very pro-Israel. And it’s been several years since our nation has been in a pro-Israel position. So, there’s just so many good things we can point to throughout the year. Positive elements that, really, we ought to be — we talk about at Thanksgiving you want to thank God for His blessings.
But really, the end of the year we ought to be looking going, “Man, God thank you so much that in the midst of the mess, and the nonsense, and the crisis, and all the hard things we’ve had to deal with, there have been so many positive things that we can definitely be grateful for.”
Well, and even in relation to that Israel thing is the Middle East. You know that we are now taking in more Christian immigrants than Muslim immigrants for the first time in a long time? That’s a real turnaround just to have someone come in your country that already has a common kind of set of values with the Judeo Christian values that we have as a nation. I mean, we’ve got people coming in that can assimilate a whole lot easier because they already agree with a whole lot of the values we have. So, there are just a lot of things we can point to.
And I think last time I went down this list it was at that point eight pages long. Now it’s up to it looks like ten pages long and all the good things that have happened and this is a single-spaced kind of stuff. So there really is a lot, Rick.
Going to take a quick break, guys. We’ll be right back. Stay with us folks. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.
This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. Many today wrongly claim that our Founding Fathers were largely atheists, agnostics, and deist.
Certainly, some Founders were less religious than others, but even they were not irreligious. Consider Benjamin Franklin, definitely one of the least religious among them, yet, when the delegates at the Constitutional Convention hit an impasse in their deliberations it was Franklin who called them to prayer, invoking numerous scriptures to make his point.
As he reminded them, “God governs in the affairs of men. If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured in the sacred writings that, except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this.”
So, even the least religious of America’s Founders urged public prayer in dependence on God. For more information about the faith of the Founding Fathers go to WallBuilders.com.
Wrapping up the Year
Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us on this Monday. A week away from Christmas. Getting excited about that and we’re actually kind of wrapping up the year. First segment we talked a little bit about some of the good news out there. And, David, you were about to dive into some more good news. Go ahead, bro.
Well, I’m going to dive into some economic stuff, but let’s turn it back a little bit from just the good news to even the concept behind what makes the good news. I mean why is something good or something bad?
Well, in our estimations because it conforms to a worldview, or conforms with what we think truth is, or what we think the Bible teaches. And we’re just talking about some economic stuff. Let me throw out of a passage here out of Matthew 17 just going to read a couple of verses here.
And it says, Matthew 17 Verse 24 says, “After Jesus and His disciples arrived in Capernaum the collectors of the two temple tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?”
“Yes, He does” Peter replied. When Peter came into the house Jesus was the first to speak, “What do you think, Peter?” He asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes – from their own children or from the foreigners?”
“From the foreigners,” Peter answered.
“Then the children are exempt.” Jesus said to him, “but so that we may not cause offense, go to the lake, throw in your line, take the first fish you catch, open his mouth, and you’ll find a coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and for yours.”
So, you’ve got a something here that deals with taxes. And Jesus paid taxes and Peter paid taxes, but Jesus’ question, “Hey, who pays his taxes – the children or the foreigners?”
And Peter says, “That’s a no-brainer – the foreigners.”
How does that relate to our tax policy today?
Well, if we talked about illegal immigration, that could be appropriate–
You can do that. Yeah, it could be.
Citizens Should be Paying Less – Not More
–It certainly could be appropriate, because, certainly, if you are an illegal immigrant in America, at least for the last many years, you’ve gotten all kinds of tax breaks and benefits in the welfare and the social programs and free college. And so many benefits that that normal Americans don’t get. Which, one of the things that we would love to see happen is that the veterans have the same level of benefits the illegal immigrants get. But, certainly, we can see that with immigration specifically. What else are you thinking?
Well, I just think the principle is there that the children of the nation — and that is the citizens. And the citizens can certainly be native-born folks who are born here or those who become naturalized citizens because both are legitimate citizens. If you become a full-fledged citizen then you are a child of the nation so to speak Biblically.
Finishing a book right now that is going to come out in September, but it deals with the concept of immigration. How the Bible handles immigration, how we handled immigration in America from the very first immigration law in 1790 all the way up to now.
And we really pretty much followed Biblical precepts on this. But, if you look at the Biblical precepts on economics and tax, the principle is that the citizens should be paid less not more. And so anything that helps citizens to pay less, not more is a good deal. And so you’ve got going through Congress now, and it’s hopefully on its way to the President very soon, a deal that would at least have the citizens paying less taxes than what they pay now. The tax reform bill that’s going through the House and the Senate the President’s calling for, it doesn’t eliminate taxes, it doesn’t put them elsewhere.
The 16th Amendment
Now, under the Founders, I think 95 percent of all federal income came from tariffs and came from other nations paying fees to do business here and trade here, etc.. So, the children, by and large, weren’t paying the kind of taxes we’re used to. Now the Constitution was amended in 1913 with the 16th Amendment so that, for the first time ever, the government could take money right out of your pocket. And that had not happened before like that.
Tim and David:
Not good, not good.
Those on the Outside Pay the Taxes
And we’re so used to it now we think it’s always been that way and it hasn’t been. Because we really did kind of follow this precept that the children aren’t the ones who pay the taxes, that those on the outside do – those non-children. But, at least we’ve got going through Congress right now a measure that will at least reduce the amount that children pay.
And that is certainly more in line with Biblical principles of taxation. Although, as Jesus points out, He said, “You pay your tax. I’ll pay mine.”
We pay taxes. We’re told in Romans 13 that we should pay taxes so that you can have a police force and a military to protect and defend you. Those are Biblical reasons for it. So, looking at that, that kind of throws us back to what’s happening in Congress right now and hopefully something good will come out by the end of the year on this. Where that it really does reduce the taxes.
And we couldn’t think of anybody better to kind of update us on where this is right now than Congressman Jim Jordan. Jim’s good friend, just a solid brother, really good on the Constitution. He’s one of the members of the Freedom Caucus. He’s strong – just strong in every way in what we consider the right way, the right worldview. And so, Jim Jordan can update us on what’s happening with the tax bill.
Congressman Jim Jordan when we return. Stay with us, folks. We’ll be right back here on WallBuilders Live.
Hi, this is Tim Barton with WallBuilders and I want to encourage all the pastors out there with a unique opportunity that we’re presenting it WallBuilders. We’re doing a special tour just for pastors that you can come and learn more about the spiritual heritage of our nation. Not just seeing the sights but understanding the significance of what they are and what they represent.
We get to go to the Capitol at night. And we get to see the spiritual heritage of our Founding Fathers, of who we are as a nation, where we came from. We bring in congressman that will tell you about current legislation, about our religious liberties and freedom, and what’s going on in Washington, D.C.
If you’re a pastor or if you want to recommend your pastor for this trip, you can go to our website at www.WallBuilders.com. And there’s a link that’s for scheduling. If you click on that link there’s a section for pastor’s briefing. There’s more information about the dates, when it’s going, and how it’s going to happen. If you want to know more about our nation, our religious liberties, our freedom, our spiritual heritage, this is a trip you want to be a part of.
Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Congressman Jim Jordan back with us. Good to have you on, sir.
Congressman Jim Jordan:
Good to be with you Rick.
Hey, wrapping up 2017. Getting ready for 2018. First of all, just tell us about the tax plan and your thoughts there.
Congressman Jim Jordan:
And then let’s just get an idea of what you think will happen before the end of the year.
Three Goals for the Tax Bill
Congressman Jim Jordan:
Well, I think we’ll get a bill done. This bill is not perfect, but it’s a definite improvement over what we currently have. And we set out as conservatives when we were working on this tax reform we set three principles, three goals. Cut taxes for families – let’s let people keep more of their money – goal number one. 2) Let’s try to simplify this complex tax code and get rid of some of the cronyism and special deals in it.
And then, 3) Let’s construct a bill that produces a tax code that’s much more conducive to economic growth.
We think this bill moves in the right direction in all three of those principles. In places, while it could be better, it’s a good move and it’s an improvement. So, we want to get something on the conference committee and get it passed.
What would be the highlights that you would want our listeners to know about out of this tax plan?
Congressman Jim Jordan:
Lower rates for families. Families get to keep more of their hard-earned money. That is just pro-freedom – that is the way it’s supposed to work. This idea that somehow letting people keep their money is a cost to the government is just something I’ve never subscribed to. It’s not conservative. It’s not what conservatives believe.
Second, lowering the corporate rate is conducive to producing economic growth and job creation. So, let’s get that done. We have one of the highest corporate rates in the world. Let’s get it down. It’d be great if we could get it to the lowest, but, if we could at least get it down near the lowest in the world.
That is good for American business, good for American jobs, for American families.
Increased Opportunity and Making Us Competitive in the World Economy
And that one, sometimes people will criticize you guys and say, “Oh, you’re just giving to big business, whatever.” This really helps small businesses and creates jobs. It’s actually making us competitive in a world economy.
Congressman Jim Jordan:
Totally right. It’s just increased opportunity for people, increased opportunity for these young people coming out of high school, coming out of college. It is all about that – creating an environment that’s conducive to job growth, conducive to growing your economy. And frankly, to ever deal with the debt of the magnitude we have now – 20 trillion – you’ve got to have economic growth. And getting the right kind of tax code produces better economic growth.
We’ve got to grow at 3.5-4 percent a year if we’re ever going to be able to begin to manage — balance our budget, and manage debt, and bring it down over time.
Hey, I’ve got to tell you, Congressman, the reciprocity for concealed carry passing the House – huge victory, brother.
Congressman Jim Jordan:
I was jumping up and down when I saw it. When it all started and Hudson, whatever it was, a year ago. I was thinking, “Oh, this would be great, but I can’t imagine it.” You guys passed it.
Congressman Jim Jordan:
Congressman Jim Jordan:
It’s a simple recognition of the importance of the Constitution. Specifically, the Second Amendment. So, it is a good thing. And the fact that we got it through the House and we’re hoping the Senate can actually get it through there, and get it done, and expand the rights that people have in — or just recognize their rights people should have under the Second Amendment.
Big Items For 2018
Yeah, no doubt. Tell us, just real quick before I let you go, on your agenda for 2018. What do you see as the big items?
Congressman Jim Jordan:
Well, we’ll get the tax reform bill done before Christmas and then I think next year welfare reform is critical. We have the 79, 80, different * tested social welfare programs. If we’re ever going to deal with a debt of the magnitude that we have, we’re going to have to have more people moving into the workforce.
Right now a lot of employers say they can’t find enough people for the jobs that are currently there in this growing and expanding economy. So, we need welfare reform, we need a work requirement that’s there for anyone who’s trying to get a benefit.
And the best example is food stamps. In order to receive the benefit, if you’re an able-bodied adult, you’re going to have to do something to get the benefit. A couple of states have imposed that work requirement and what they find is people no longer sign up for food stamps. They just go get a job. And that is good for taxpayers, it’s good for the Treasury.
Tough Love to Get to a Better Position
Congressman Jim Jordan:
But most important, this is how we have to talk about this, it’s good for people who get trapped in our social safety net social welfare system. It helps them in a tough love way to get to a better position in life. And so this is important as we move forward. We have a bill that myself and Mark Meadows have sponsored on the House side. And then, Mike Lee, Senator Lee, has on the Senate side that we think makes sense. And most importantly, the President talking about this. He wants to get it done in 2018 as well.
That’s great, man. That’s great. More and more victories. We’re seeing some very positive things coming out. Appreciate your hard work.
Congressman Jim Jordan:
And appreciate what you do and look forward to having you back soon.
Congressman Jim Jordan:
Thanks, Rick, take care.
That’s Congressman Jim Jordan from Ohio. Stay with us. We’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.
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Hi friends! This is Tim Barton of WallBuilders.This is a time when most Americans don’t know much about American history or even heroes of the faith. I know, oftentimes as parents, we’re trying to find good content for our kids to read.
If you remember back in the Bible, the Book of Hebrews it has the Faith Hall of Fame, where they outlined the leaders of faith that had gone before them. Well, this is something that as Americans we really want to go back and outline some of these heroes not just of American history, but heroes of Christianity and our faith as well.
I wanted to let you know about some biographical sketches we have available on our website. One is called, “The Courageous Leaders Collection” and this collection includes people like Abigail Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Francis Scott Key, George Washington Carver, Susanna Wesley, even the Wright brothers.
There’s a second collection called, “Heroes of History” in this collection you read about people like Benjamin Franklin, Christopher Columbus, Daniel Boone, George Washington, Harriet Tubman, the list goes on and on.
This is a great collection for your young person to have and read. And it’s a providential view of American and Christian history. This is available at WallBuilders.com.
Welcome back to WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us today. And thanks to Congressman Jim Jordan for joining us as well and for pushing on this legislation to get it done by the end of the year.
Major Tax Overhaul Like This Doesn’t Happen Often
Back with David and Tim Barton now. Guys sounds really positive. This is looking really good and this is something that doesn’t happen very often. Major tax overhaul like this.
It doesn’t happen often. It usually goes 15-18 years before something like this happens. People get fed up. But I love what Jim said, he said, “letting people keep more of their own money.” That’s the thing Jesus was just telling Peter about is, “Hey, the kids of the nation, they’re not the ones, the children of the nation don’t pay the others.”
So, it’s moving back in that direction. And he also pointed out, he said they’re going to get the corporate tax rate lower. Which, again, means actually it’s — and don’t — it’s not the corporate tax rates, it’s the people’s tax rate. Because again, corporations do not pay taxes they pass that on to the people.
That, of course, is one of the big arguments, “Now, wait a second, he’s giving a tax break to the wealthy and a tax break to the big business.” And that’s the accusation is that it’s not a tax break for people that, in this case, are middle class or lower class.
The reality, of course, is that if you give corporations the ability to not pay as much taxes, then they don’t have to pass on those taxes to others, as you’re indicating. But also, that means they have a revenue stream. Now they can expand their business, they can hire new employees.
So, this is certainly something that you’re not going to see – just these rich people cramming their pockets and it’s going in their savings account. No, this is going to be a very real and felt impact on the economy.
Dropping Taxes on Corporations is Good for the Entire Nation
Well, we’re — WallBuilders is a small business. We hire, I don’t know, 15-20 people or however many work for us. And if I did not have to comply with all the taxes that are placed on our small business, we could boost the number of people we have working for us by somewhere in the vicinity of 30 to 50 percent more workers working for us.
Easily 50 percent.
And so that’s a lot more jobs, that’s a lot more people getting income. See, that’s what stimulates the economy because they’re getting income, now they’re going to get taxed for their income. So, by giving corporations some help it creates more jobs which actually creates more income for the federal government. Which again, that’s not supposed to be the way it works. The children in the nation are supposed to be the ones paying the taxes.
But that’s it, that’s the reality right now with the 16th Amendment. And so dropping the corporate tax rate, dropping taxes on corporations, is good for the entire nation.
Now guys, you will know better than I because I was just a wee little thing when Ronald Reagan was president. But just from reading, and certainly, I don’t have any recollection, but from reading, it would seem like when Reagan brought some of these corporate tax cuts it certainly had a major boost to the economy.
The Longest Peacetime Economic Expansion in History
The longest peacetime economic expansion in history. It literally — it just it changed everything.
But that’s the problem – you just said history, and we don’t study history anymore —
Well, that’s true. Yeah.
So that vocabulary – we don’t want to repeat what’s worked before because it might work again now if we’d repeat it. So, we’ve evolved past that, we don’t — and which, by the way, Tim and I both laughed when we were in Poland. Because Poland talked about how well Reaganomics work and how well they follow Reaganomics in Poland. And we laughed and said, “We don’t do that in America.”
And they said, “You don’t follow Reaganomics? Do you realize how well it works?” Yeah, we do, but that’s —
The Best Way to Retire the Debt
And as big a fan as I am of Reagan – did a documentary on him, named a kid after him, got another kid with his birthday and used to have a dog named Dutch – alright, I’m a little bit of a Reagan fan. But even so, we can back up a couple more decades and Kennedy did the same thing in 1961, had the same impact. Tax cuts work – it puts money in the hands of the people, they go spend it, and it turns the economy, it benefits the entire country. No doubt about it, proven every time.
Well, to quote our good friend, Congressman Bob McEwen, “It only works every time.”
You can choose the president and when they have done tax cuts, the economy grows. And on the other side, they say, “Oh no, we need more money so we have to take more from the people.”
When you do that the economy shrinks and you get the kind of recessive type of stuff. Well, again 12 years since we’ve had three quarters with 3 percent GDP growth or more. So, that kind of speaks for itself.
And regulations, getting government taxes down, all of that really does stimulate the economy.
Tax Cuts Work
That’s the best way to retire the debt is to get more people engaged with having more money. And the more they have, the more they will spend and the more that puts into what the government has.
No doubt about it. Which, in the long run, also will reduce the debt. That’s how you get those deficits and that debt down as you churn the economy. You’re not ever going to get it down just by taxing the people more. In fact, it’ll have the opposite effect and just cause it to grow.
So, it’s some very positive moves being made in Washington, D.C. right now. Hopefully, some more good news to share with you in 2018. But we sure appreciate Congressman Jim Jordan for joining us today to give us a quick end of the year update. Hope you’ve enjoyed it as well. You can get more at our website – WallBuildersLive.com.
You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.