The Choice – With Danielle D’Souza Gill: Could the rising generation changing their position on abortion due to the science? What are the most powerful pro-choice arguments? Are you prepared to explain your pro-life stand or help enlighten a confused voter? Is the rising generation changing their position on abortion due to the science? Could abortion be abolished in our lifetime? Tune in to hear this encouraging interview with Danielle D’Souza Gill as we discuss her new book The Choice.

Air Date: 10/26/2020

Guest: Danielle D’Souza Gill

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith and the Culture


Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture, it’s WallBuilders Live, where we’re talking about today’s hottest topics on policy and faith, the culture, every issue you can think of, I mean, election issues, we’re talking about marriage, abortion, guns, we don’t stay away from any of the tough issues either. 

You know why? Because there is a biblical perspective on every issue. There’s not a single issue the Bible doesn’t address. And in fact, history can teach us something about every single issue. 

The Constitution may not speak to every single issue, but it does have the principles of how our particular system of government, our political and economic structures, has to respond to that issue and still be constitutional. So that’s what we do here at WallBuilders Live, we look at those issues of the day from those three perspectives.

My name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas legislator and America’s Constitution coach. And I’m here with David Barton, he’s America’s premier historian, and our founder at WallBuilders. Tim Barton is with us, he’s a national speaker, and pastor and president of WallBuilders. You can find out more about all three of us at 

That’s also the place to get archives of the program. If you’d like to go back and listen to some of our previous interviews, Good News Fridays, Foundations of Freedom Thursdays, lots of great material there on the website, and that is the place to make your contribution.

Listen, if you like what you hear today, if you like this perspective on what’s going on in the culture, if you like the encouragement, and the equipping, the knowledge, all the things that we do, then you can help us continue to do that and reach more people with it. 

Welcome Danielle D’Souza

So not just equip you, not just inspire you and your family, but you get to be a force multiplier so that others are learning as well. Right there at is the place you can make that contribution. One time or monthly, you are investing in freedom, and we certainly appreciate it.

Alright, David, Tim, later in the program, Danielle D’Souza, not Dinesh D’souza, Danielle D’Souza, this is his daughter, actually, 20 years old, has a great book out on abortion, not her first book, this is her second book, she’s already done a lot at the age of 20. Anyway, she’s going to be with us a little bit later, but you guys have had so many pieces of good news over the last, really two, three years, where we have been winning the prolife battle in so many areas.

But I think what we’re going to find with Danielle is there’s an awful lot of people that have not looked at this issue that might have feelings one way or the other. But this is an issue we need to continue to educate people on and continue to talk about. As the science gets better, we learn more and more about what’s going on in the womb.

And even those that might have thought that’s not life, now that they’re looking at those images, now that they’re going to see the viability, they’re changing their position going, wow, that’s life in the womb.


Yeah. And especially with the rising generation, when we look at the university level, and even High School, there’s so many kids who are hearing messages that sometimes is disinformation, sometimes the dishonest, and the notion that no, no, that’s just tissue, it’s just cells, or it’s all about a woman’s right, it’s a woman’s reproductive right, that there’s a lot of argument that’s out there. And frankly, there’s a lot of Christians who I think want to engage in the conversation, and sometimes they don’t feel fully equipped and prepared to engage in that conversation.

Psalm 139

And so sometimes it’s not just learning that there are new levels and dimensions to the conversation and argument, sometimes it’s just learning in the conversation in general of I might know the fundamental truth, right, that I know that God is the author and giver of life; I know that God created man. We can read Psalm 139.

And if you haven’t read Psalm 139, go read Psalm 139, read about how David illustrates in this Psalm that God formed and knit us together in our mother’s womb, and God knows every detail about us, because he’s the one that put us together. Or you can read Jeremiah 1:5, which says that before I formed you, I knew you. There’s a very clear teaching and message from the Bible that God is the one who creates and originates and authors life.

And I don’t think for most Christians that is necessarily a confusing idea or question, but sometimes knowing how to engage in the conversation and the topic becomes a challenge. And that’s where somebody like Danielle has really done a good job of helping give some content ideas and information of maybe how we can engage in that conversation a little better.


And I think a couple of things that play into this as well. One is that there is, as Tim indicates that just the conversation, but on so many Americans what they know is sound bites and they don’t know much information. And we see that in polling. If you just ask, are you prolife or pro-choice? Well, it’s I’m not very high on prolife or pro-choice to kind of split.

But when you start saying do you think that a child who is in the third trimester should be aborted with the dismemberment, abortion or whatever? You start getting 70% and 80% oppose that once you start describing what you’re talking about, then they take sides pretty quickly.

My Choice, My Body?

But if you throw out a little mantra, like my body, my choice, everybody says, yeah, that’s right; my body, my choice. Well, when you start explaining what that means, and the life that’s lost, you see a whole lot shift. So part of this is an educational thing, and that people just really haven’t thought through it very far.

They’re not really into that issue, and when they’re taught about and educated about it, they take a much more prolife position, which is a good thing to see. But again, you do have that that big group of middle just didn’t know much about it.

And so one of the things that we’ve discovered, and particularly as Tim and Jonathan others do at the leadership training in the summer for 18 to 25 year olds, is that once you can equip them, not only with your arguments, but on what the other side says, oh, my goodness, they’re so much more engaged, they’re so much more informed, and they’re willing to take on the argument when they hear it. And we just don’t have enough people on our side who have really been trained on what the issue is, what it really deals with, what the other side says about it, what the soundbites are, how you respond to that.

And that’s really what Daniele’s kind of going after here which makes sense because she is in that that Gen Z and millennial kind of span, and so she’s that younger generation, and they just haven’t heard much about the debate. And so what she’s pulled together here is really going to be a good resource for people to really kind of help engage the apologetics of life.

Know what the other side says, know what your response should be, know how you can counter that response and know what you believe. And that’s all part of apologetics which is really a healthy thing to do, especially on an issue as important to the nation as the issue of life is.


Daniele de Souza, our special guest. Stay with us, you’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

Moment From American History

This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. American patriot Paul Revere wrote to alert Americans of the impending arrival of the British, but he also sought patriot leaders, Samuel Adams and John Hancock to warn them that the British were seeking their execution. Adams and Hancock we’re staying with the Reverend Jonas Clark in Lexington.

When they asked Pastor Clark if his church was ready for the approaching British? He replied, “I’ve trained them for this very hour, they will fight and if need be, die under the shadow of the house of God.” Later that morning, 70 men from his church, a several hundred British and the first battle of the war for independence, as Pastor Clark affirmed, “The militias that morning were the same who filled the pews of the church meetinghouse on the Sunday morning before.” The American church was regularly at the forefront of the fight for liberty.

For more information on this pastor and other colonial patriots, go to


Welcome back to webinars live. Thanks for staying with us. Danielle D’Souza is with us. She’s the author of “Y God: An Intelligent Discussion on the Relevance of Faith”; and has a new book out just now, it’s called “The Choice: The Abortion Divide in America.” Danielle, thanks for taking some time with us.


Thanks so much for having me.

Trump Card


I watched “Trump Card” last week and you stole the show. I’m just telling you and I told her dad that, I was like that’s it. You got to let her be in more of the movies from now on; really, really great job, I mean, well done.


Oh, well, thank you. I was glad to have a tiny cameo.


Well imagine taking on the toughest topics in America, you’re not afraid of them. So I’m impressed. This one is needed really bad right now. And it’s so great to hear from someone your age saying hey, this abortion debate for women in their 20s I want to speak into this and you speak to it from a different perspective. And you bring up the science, you walk through the science and how this has changed over the years. So let’s kind of walk through that a little bit. First of all, your purpose, what do you hope to accomplish by the book?


Well, I structured my book around what are the most powerful pro-choice arguments, the most powerful things we hear from the Left these days? So I really organize each chapter around one of those, I’m going to respond to it in the chapter. So everything, from a fetus is a cluster of cells to my body, my choice, abortion empowers women, how would be pay for these children, who would take care of them, all these things? And I just felt like those were the things that people asked me the most and then I felt like needed to kind of be debunked and responded to.

Strengthened Convictions


Is part of your target audience out there that hasn’t really thought this through yet and may not even know what their position is? Maybe they think they’re pro- choice, maybe they think they’re pro-abortion, and you’re taking them through one by one to help them think through this logically, scientifically, emotionally, spiritually, all those things? I mean, is that kind of your target the almost undecided person on abortion?


It is. It is. And I think to in a way, it reminds me of kind of how even people who already believed this need to be reminded of it and needed to be strengthened in their convictions on it. Because sometimes we’ll talk to someone and they’ll have maybe one reason for being prolife but then if someone asks them about something else, they have to be ready to go on all corners of the debate.

So I think that as well, but also, I think there’s so many people who are not these radical pro-abortion people that the Left act like is the majority. I think a lot of people are revisiting this issue and thinking about it, so I’m hoping my book really reaches those people.


Yeah, I was thinking, as you were saying that for a prolife person that maybe just in their gut, they know this can’t be right, but they haven’t thought through all these things. It’s going to strengthen their conviction in that and therefore be able to defend the issue better. But then the person that may even be slightly pro-abortion and think, well, this is just what I’ve been told, a woman’s right to choose, but hasn’t thought through it.

So I love how you structure the arguments, it’s an influential intellectual discussion on the subject. What about the timing so right before the election, you’re hoping this will have some impact on the race?

A Shaker in this Election


I do. I hope so. I think that the Left really targets, young people and targets getting them out there. But I think that’s why with my book, I wanted to make it bright pink, to organize it in a way that’s really accessible, just to make it a way that here’s how we can really get the prolife message to people who might not be the people who are always hearing it. And I hope that the issue of life is one that does bring people to the polls.

I know that there are so many reasons for people to get out and vote this election. But I thought Trump had tweeted out, kind of a flurry of tweets, 2A, go vote; 401k go vote; prolife, go vote. And the prolife one, I mean, it got with one of the most likes and retweets of all of those issues.

So I actually think there is a silent majority of prolifers out there. But oftentimes they’re a little bit more quiet, or maybe aren’t the people who are screaming the loudest. But I think that definitely, it’ll be a big mover and shaker in the election.


I think it’s one of the things that won me over to Trump. I remember his third debate with Hillary, when partial birth abortion came up, and she gave this nuanced, politically sounded great, it’s rare, and this is the only blah, blah, blah; and his was just this visceral gut reaction. That’s evil, I can’t believe we’re allowing that to happen in the US, and just that gut reaction from him that he had moral clarity on the issue surprise me.

I mean, this was 2016 I didn’t expect it and then I never dreamed he would be such a prolife president. I mean, I think you can say he’s the most prolife president of my lifetime, for sure. I mean, I think he’s been great on the life issue and I honestly did not expect it. So it should be a motivator for people?

Born Alive Protection Act


Exactly, yeah. I remember those 2016 debates that you’re referring to. I remember, when they were asked about nine months abortions, President Trump or then, Trump who was running, said that you can rip the baby from the womb moments before it’s born, this is not okay. Just something very obvious like that.

And I think everyone watching thought, wow, yeah, that’s true. That’s not okay. I meant Hillary positions and try to defend it saying, oh, it’s so unfortunate that you are using this rhetoric or something. And it’s like, what rhetoric you’re just stating the obvious, which is, you are ripping it from the womb moments before it’s born and killing that infant.

And so, I think that when we talk about abortion in real terms, it’s really good to do actually, because it wakes people up and makes them realize that wow, this is actually what’s going on. I can’t believe this is even a political issue that people have to vote on.

But as you mentioned, President Trump, I mean, the fact that he even had to sign this Born Alive Protection Act and the fact that we have to quibble with Democrats over about even at this point shows, it is a matter of location whether it’s in the womb or out of the womb, and they don’t really care if it is either one of those. So, yeah, this idea that poof, once it exits the womb, it’s going to have all these rights, it’s like, well, actually, no, we have to defend even those.


That’s good. I bet you’re having this conversation with a lot of people right now with the release of the book. But it’s, it seems like if you are a principled voter that’s saying, okay, I am prolife, I am not pro-abortion, but Trump’s personality and the tweets make me mad and all that, how is that possibly a moral equivalent?

The Left is Fighting Hard

I mean, if Biden and his party and his ilk are saying abortion up through the nine months, even after it’s born alive, I mean, there for all of that, how can you support that just because you don’t like somebody’s personality? How do you answer somebody that says, yeah, I just don’t like the guy?


I mean, I think that he is just a reflection of the days we live in. We live in a crazy world right now and our country is just incredibly divided. I mean, the Left is not holding back in terms of as we’ve seen violence in our streets, destroying businesses, people are literally living in this crazy 2020 world. And so, the idea that we even have to fight for the rights of the unborn shows that I actually would want someone in the White House who’s going to actually fight for the unborn.

And I know that we’ve had so many Republicans in the past who seem like such nice people and such reasonable people and they talk about the unborn, but they don’t actually do anything. So I think that the Left is fighting hard on this issue. They’re fighting hard on all their issues. So we actually have to do the same.

We have to fight hard on our issues too. And so I think if people say, oh, he’s a meanie, I don’t like his tweets and stuff. It’s like, well, abortion is mean; abortion kills. And so, when we’re talking about a tweet versus actually taking a life, I mean, I would be more in favor of saving that life.


You say that so much better than I do. You know, it’s kind of like the other night when I was on the panel with Dinesh. He would say this great intellectual, nice, well thought out argument and then they had me there to be the country boy and go, okay, look, people grow up. This is why you need to do it this way. And that’s kind of how I feel about this answer.

It’s like, come on, people get thick skin, how can you let somebody tweet cause you to go vote for some pro- abortion guy that wants abortion on demand? But your answer was much better.

First-Trimester Heartbeat


Yeah, I mean, the other side too, it’s like, okay, maybe you think Joe Biden’s tweets are really nice, but I mean, what are the actions behind his nice words, these lies he puts out. He basically tiptoes around all the time, just to get people to like him. He just says, I can’t really deny that I’ll pack the court, I can’t really say this, I can’t really say that.

So it’s like, okay, maybe seems like a very nice guy or whatever. But no, he actually is just justifying federal funding for abortion, justifying this on-demand, justifying packing our courts, all these things. But he says it in a way that maybe doesn’t sound as maybe hardcore as Trump, but I would rather have someone be forward with me and say what they actually think and then I can decide.


That’s right. That’s right. Okay, before I let you go, hit the viability issue a little bit. Because I didn’t realize so now you can, I mean, literally, the whole third trimester is we can save that baby and it can survive outside the womb, walk through that a little bit because that changes people’s perspective on life in the womb?


Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, it’s moved earlier in earlier as we’ve moved from 1973 Roe v. Wade to now. And in those days, they didn’t know a lot about life in the womb. They asked questions like, when does life begin and maybe there’s potential life and we have to give it the benefit of the doubt and all of this, which is obviously not the strongest position.


But now I mean, we know is a human in the womb, we can see it and an ultrasound, we can hear the heartbeat in the first trimester. And yes, we know viability has moved earlier and earlier, and it can live outside just this woman in the third trimester.

So I mean, even twins are born earlier, almost always; triplets are born even earlier, naturally, almost always. So this idea that viability is one moment, one point, it’s like it really isn’t. It’s ever changing as medical technology gets better and better. So I imagine it will only get earlier. But I think if we kind of look at this idea of what gives this human right, it’s the fact that it’s a human being.

It’s not the fact that it’s in a certain location. It’s not the fact that we say hey, you’re a person, human is person, and I think that is just key for us to remember. Because anytime we take away this idea of personhood from a human being, it basically gives us license to kill them, torture them, and so on.


Danielle, before I let you go, how do you see this playing out in the next few years? Do you think we end abortion in our lifetime?


I think so. I think that we will see Roe v Wade overturned, not just in our lifetime, but soon. And I think the Democrats know that and that’s why they’ve had this deep hatred of Trump. They know that he’s remaking our course and he’s kind of have a long lasting impact beyond his four years or eight years or whatever it is. And even if we see kind of their hatred of Amy Coney Barrett or this idea of remaking our court that’s what they want to do and why is, it all really revolved around abortion.

The Choice: The Abortion Divide in America

It’s not about all these other things about universal basic income or the illegal immigrant and so on. Abortion is really at the heart of what they care about and so I think that’s why we have to really make this our issue and fight harder on that as well.


The book is called The Choice: The Abortion Divide in America-Danielle D’Souza Gill And Danielle, where do you recommend people, I know, you get Amazon bookstores, everywhere, what’s your favorite recommendation for folks?


Oh, my favorite! Well, Amazon is great for hardcover. I really like Audible too, I did read my audiobook, so if you download it there, you can listen to me on there. And then I know some people like ebooks, so I think just whatever format you like the most for reading books.


Love it, good to hear it’s on Audible as well and that you actually read it. I always prefer books read by the actual author. So great job, Danielle. Thank you so much for the time today. Appreciate you coming on.


Thanks for having me.


Stay with us, folks. We’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

Constitution Alive!

Have you ever wanted to learn more about the United States Constitution but just felt like, man, the classes are boring or it’s just that old language from 200 years ago or I don’t know where to start? People want to know but it gets frustrating because they don’t know where to look for truth about the Constitution either.

Well, we’ve got a special program for you available now called Constitution Alive with David Barton and Rick Green. And it’s actually a teaching done on the Constitution at Independence Hall in the very room where the Constitution was framed. We take you both to Philadelphia, the cradle of liberty and Independence Hall and to the WallBuilders library, where David Barton brings the history to life to teach the original intent of our Founding Fathers.

We call it the Quickstart Guide to the Constitution, because in just a few hours through these videos, you will learn the citizens guide to America’s Constitution, you’ll learn what you need to do to help save our constitutional republic. It’s fun, it’s entertaining and it’s going to inspire you to do your part to preserve freedom for future generations. It’s called Constitution Alive with David Barton and Rick Green. You can find out more information on our website now and


We’re back here on WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. And thanks to Danielle D’Souza for joining us as well. We have a link where you can get the book at Amazon.

It’s also in bookstores, but a great way to get educated on this issue and to give to someone that you know may be struggling with this trying to figure out what is the right position on this particular issue. And David, Tim, of course, we talk about the life issue a lot. It’s, I guess, probably shouldn’t be the number one issue, right? Didn’t even the founder say that life comes first, then liberty and everything else?

The Pro-Life Movement


Well, yeah, certainly, the Declaration that that government exists to protect our inalienable rights, and the first of those rights is the right to life. And this is something that a lot of times we look in the modern era, and we think the prolife movement is a new movement. And this is not a new movement, right?

You can go back to the Bible, and there were genocides of babies in the Bible, whether you go back to Exodus chapter one, when Pharaoh says, hey, the Israelites are becoming too numerous, we need to kill all the baby boys. And this is what would be called selective abortion, right? We’re going to say by gender abortion, but this was the idea, instead of it being maybe a partial birth abortion, it was a birth abortion. But it’s still the idea of this genocide of we don’t want these babies around., so we’re going to get rid of these babies. This is the same notion.

If you go to even Jesus, when the three wise men go before the king, and they’re like, hey, we came to see this new king that was born and he’s going what, what do you mean? And when they tell him about the stars and his revelation, and so then okay, well, then we’re going to kill all the babies two years and under.

This notion of a prolife movement is not a brand new movement. This is something that historically there have been people that have not been in favor of life, that have not been a favor of the baby’s life. Really, since the beginning of time, this is part of the fallen, broken, sinful human nature of man; that apart from Jesus, we’re going to have issues with people doing sinful, broken, evil, wicked things.

And yet, one of the things that I think Danielle pointed out so well, is if you look at President Trump and, Rick, you even brought it up in the interview, President Trump has been the most prolife president we have had since Roe vs. Wade when abortion was legalized by the Supreme Court.

Matthew 21

And even that’s a little iffy and squishy because the Supreme Court didn’t have the power to pass that legislation and yet that’s kind of what they did. He has been the most prolife President and we have talked so often on good news Friday how surprising that was for us at the beginning.

And now that this is just what we have seen consistently and this is the very first of the inalienable rights. Government exists, number one, first and foremost, to protect the God-given right to life and Donald Trump is doing that better than any president we’ve seen since Roe vs. Wade.


And the conversation you guys were having even about Biden, Trump, and you know what the tweets are, and Biden has a better personality or whatever, I was reminded of the parable that Jesus taught in Matthew 21, where he said, hey, there’s this guy who had two sons, and he said, to the two sons, hey, go work in my vineyard.

And one said, alright, I’ll go do that and didn’t do it. The other said, no, I don’t think I’m going to do that and he ended up doing it. So which one was right, which one did the right thing? The one that actually did it, not the one that said it.

And so what Jesus points out is your actions are much more important than your words. The son has said the right stuff but didn’t do anything right, or the son that didn’t say the right stuff but did the right stuff; and so that’s kind of like Biden and Trump in some ways where that when you look at what they do, the difference on the life issue is immense.

But the way they talk, you got kind of Biden, who’s the guy who says, oh, yeah, I’m going to do it, I’m going to do the right stuff, and doesn’t, but the other is kind of like Trump. Maybe he is rough and gruff with his tweets, but he ends up doing the right things. And that’s much more important.

You Have a Role to Play


And just to clarify. It’s not to diminish the fact that we don’t think what people say is important. Obviously, we know it’s important. We know all the Bible verses about it being important, that life and death are in the power of the tongue and those who love it will enjoy its fruit, like we get it. We know that your words are important and yet, the Bible also talks about you judge a tree by the fruit.

And if the tree happens to say, hey, I’m an apple tree, but it produces oranges, are you going to believe what it says or what it actually produces? And this is the point that you judge a tree by the fruit, not just by what it says it is, or says it will do. What do you actually do? What do you stand for? What are the policies? And this is where policies are much more important than the personality. And the policy of being prolife is one of the most important things we should be looking at as Christians.


Alright, fellas, well, we are out of time. We sure appreciate everybody listening today. Listen, it’s not just Danielle D’Souza or David Barton or other people like that that you see in the media that can make a difference. Every single one of us has a role to play in preserving freedom. You have a realm of influence and you can be the catalyst for restoring constitutional and biblical principles right there in your community, in your church, in your state, be a part of the solution.

The Choice – With Danielle D’Souza Gill

You can do that by listening to WallBuilders Live on a regular basis, sharing those programs with your friends and family. Every time you share on social media, every time you email somebody with a copy of one of these programs, every time you spread these programs, what you’re doing is spreading truth, you’re equipping others, you’re inspiring others, you’re getting them engaged in the process, and being what we talked about earlier, a force multiplier for freedom.

You can also become a Constitution coach. You can do that at, sign up for free. We’re giving it away, we give you all the materials, all the training, and then you get to use the videos where David Barton and I go into his library and pull all the materials off the shelves and talk about the founding fathers, and then I go into Independence Hall and teach the Constitution right there in that room.

We make it fun, we make it exciting to learn these things, and we give you action steps for making a difference. to sign up; now is the time, you know not only for through the election, but after the election and even into 2021. Get this going in your church and your living room, online, whatever outlet you’ve got, start getting people to study the Constitution and make a difference.

Thanks so much for listening today. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.