Two Genders: Student Kicked Out Of His College Class For Quoting Scientific Facts: In today’s episode, we have special guest Lake Ingle on to discuss how he got kicked out of class for simply stating the reality that there are only two genders. He is a senior graduating this year and this was the last class that he needed to graduate. Tune in now as we discuss what the Laws of Nature and Nature’s God are and why they are important. As well as the hypocrisy of the educational system and what we can do about it. What exactly caused this teacher to kick this student out? Join us now for more! 

Air Date: 04/03/2018

Guest: Lake Ingle

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith And The Culture

Rick:

You”€™ve found your way to the intersection of faith and the culture. This is WallBuilders Live! Where we”€™re talking about the day”€™s hottest topics on policy, faith, and the culture. Always looking at those things from a biblical perspective, a historical perspective, and a constitutional perspective.

We’re here with David Barton, America’s premier historian and our founder here at WallBuilders. Also, Tim Barton, national speaker, pastor, and president of WallBuilders. My name is Rick Green, I’m a former Texas state legislator.

You can find out more about all three of us and the program at our website WallBuildersLive.com, that’s WallBuildersLive.com, that’s our radio site. It’s got a list of our stations around the country and also has archives of the past few weeks of programs. And then WallBuilders.com is our main website. And a lot of great resources there. So, check out that as well – WallBuilders.com.

David, Tim, we”€™re always talking about things from the Declaration and the Constitution both. I get asked often, “€œWhat did Jefferson mean, right there in the beginning of the Declaration of Independence, when he talked about the laws of nature and nature’s God.”€ What do you guys say to that?

David:

Rick, when you look at the writings the founders there were so many that wrote about natural law before they did. And they got it from Blackstone, and from *, and from *, and from *, and from Montesquieu, and all these different folk. So, it was fairly well-defined in that day.

Natural Law

David:

If you look at natural law one of the easy ways for us to understand it is it is a law that exists in nature that cannot be changed by any statutory law that we pass. For example, we can pass a law– Congress can pass a law and the president can sign it that if you drop a rock from a 10 story building and has to go up rather than down. It doesn’t matter what your law says, natural law will say that it”€™s going down because the law of gravity is a natural law and no statutory law can set that aside.

So, you can look at things like that you can look– let me take another one, self defense. When you look at natural law, this where will get a lot of our inalienable rights. The law of self-defence is a law of nature. Throughout nature, all species will fight for their own life, the life of their family and kids, and the life of what they consider to be their home and their property.

We have a lot of animals, we raise sheep. So, we had a couple of years ago this this ewe and it was wintertime and we had a little grey kitten, really neat kitten, and it, for whatever reason, seemed to like this ewe and the ewe liked it. And so at nighttime the ewe would lie down in the pasture and this little gray kitten would go crawl under her wool and stay warm in the winter nights.

That worked really well until the early spring when that ewe had a pair of twins. And when those twins came and that kitten went out to lay down under it she really attacked that thing. She got aggressive when it went after it, she started trying to headbutt it, and stomped at it, and the kitten got out of there and it was fine. But suddenly the whole relationship had changed.

Now, I can say, “€œI don’t like that sheep doing that. I’m going to go to my congressman. We’re going to get a law passed that says, “€˜No sheep can headbutt a kitten.”€™”€ I can pass 100 laws on that and it”€™ll never make a bit of difference because that is a natural law that they will defend themselves, they will defend their own life, that of their children, that of their family, and that of what they consider their home.

Statutory Law Cannot Set Aside What Natural Law Has Decreed

David:

So, let’s take another one– if we look at all the mammal species that are out there, and   mankind is one of the mammal species, there’s only two genders in all of nature. Now, Congress can say, “€œNo, there’s 92 genders that we recognize today.”€ And Facebook can say, “€œThere’s 71.”€, which I think is what it is now. That will not change the fact that all of nature says there’s only two genders. And so there’s a whole lot that we try to do with statutory law that will never set aside what natural law has decreed.

Tim:

Well, let me point out even this natural law. Because I’ve had this discussion with someone and they said, “€œWell, wait a second. Because there’s a frog, right, and this frog is actually there’s no gender and then based on the other frogs it can choose a gender.”€ And so, I said, “€œSo, wait a second. That’s one out of ten million species, right?”€

David:

And that”€™s not a mammal species either.

Tim:

In this situation, right, but you’ve chosen one species. So, what that would tell me is this is not the norm of nature, right? This is not a law in nature that this is what you find in nature. No, no, no, when you look at mammals, as you’re saying, if you look at horses, or dogs, or cats, or sheep, or goats, or cows, or giraffes, you pick a mammal and it’s not a fluid gender situation. They were born one way and that’s how it works for them. And biology confirms that, science confirms it.

And this is where sometimes we try to find the exception and make it the rule and say, “€œSee, it happened to this one frog therefore it applies to everybody.”€ You show me one time ever, right, where there was a cow and there was a horse and it had a fluid gender or it changed a gender. It does not happen in creation–

David:

That”€™s right.

Only One Thing Supersedes the Laws of Nature

Tim:

–in this sense, but people always try to find the exceptions to support their theory.

But this is what the Founding Fathers understand is you can just look at the laws of nature and understand so much about the way life is supposed to work. Which, again, science, biology, confirms this.

David:

That”€™s right. And the Founders pointed out there is only one thing that supersedes the laws of nature. And that is the positive laws of God, the moral law. For example, it’s a law of nature that animals will steal from, each other animals will murder each other, animals will commit adultery with each other, but God came through and said, “€œNo, no, no, here’s a positive law. Do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not murder.”€ And unless there’s a positive law from God, a moral law, the natural law is, that trumps it.

Tim:

Well, this is one of the reasons that Blackstone said you have the laws of nature and the laws of nature’s God. Blackstone says you have to look at both of them because if you simply look to the laws of nature you might come away with the wrong conclusion. Whether it’s because we live in a fallen world where sin has entered the world, so whether it’s because we are sinful, or whether because we have a sinful understanding, whatever it is, sin has entered the world and that’s why we don’t just have the laws of nature. You have the laws of nature’s God. To clarify, any situation that might have been confusing here’s a clarification you need in this.

And so the laws of nature’s God, the Bible, the revealed word of God, brought clarity in situations where we might have gone, “€œNow, wait a second, it seems like stealing is wrong, but stealing happens in nature.”€ Oh but God clarified it and said, “€œOkay, there is no stealing, thou shall not steal.”€ And so you see there is clearly where there might have been confusion. But that’s where, again, the laws of nature give a great revelation to the way things should be.

David:

That”€™s right.

Tim:

And if there confusion, well, then you can look to the laws of nature’s God, the revealed word of God, the Bible, to bring clarity. But when you look at those two together you get a very complete picture of the way things ought to operate.

Kicked out of Class

David:

Now, Tim, you and I recently saw an article and it turned out that on the day we saw the article we met someone who said, “€œHey, this just happened to my nephew.”€ And what happened was there was a young man at university, and it was a religion class university, and the teacher got into saying, “€œHey, there’s all sorts of genders.”€ and went off on this thing of many genders. And this young man said, “€œNo, biology says there’s only two genders and that’s what biologists say, and that’s what science says. You can say otherwise, but science says there are two.”€

And that teacher went after that young man, went to the university, the head of the university, got the kid kicked out of class, suspended from class, and he’s a senior graduating this year, needs that class to graduate. For saying what biologist say, not for having a debate, but for saying what biologists say and that is there’s only two genders, that’s a law of nature, for saying that, she’s trying to keep him from graduating in this year. So, we were able to track him down, and get him on, and just some things that have been happening the last couple days that kind of clarify what’s happening at the school.

But what we’ve got Lake Ingle on and it”€™s going to be a great interview with Lake.

Rick:

Lake Ingle, our special guest today. Stay with us, folks. You’re listening to WallBuilders Live.

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Home of Jimmy Stewart

Rick:

Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here at WallBuilders Live. Lake Ingle is with us. He’s a senior at Indiana University at Pennsylvania Lake. Thanks for coming on, man.

Lake Ingle:

Hey, thanks for having me.

Rick:

Okay, first of all before we jump into the incident and what happened, our radio program is on 300 stations across the country, so you”€™ve got to help us non Pennsylvania folks understand how Indiana University ended up in Pennsylvania. Which, I guess, you”€™re in the city of Indiana which would explain it. But our listeners are going to be very confused.

Lake Ingle:

Right, yeah, it’s not– I don’t think it’s associated with IU at all.

Rick:

Right.

Lake Ingle:

I don”€™t think it’s a subset of Indiana University at all. It”€™s its own thing.

Rick:

I know, I’m sure you get that all the time, but I wasn’t familiar, so I was confused at first. But I looked it up and it’s actually hometown of Jimmy Stewart, by the way – Indiana, Pennsylvania.

Lake Ingle:

That”€™s right.

Take Us Back to the Class

Rick:

Okay, not why you’re on today, so let’s talk about what happened in the classroom for speaking up in class and actually pointing out there’s only two genders. You were kicked out of the class by the professor and even referred to whatever the disciplinary board is there, the academic integrity board. Take us first back to the class, I guess it was February, just a couple of weeks ago, a few weeks ago.

Lake Ingle:

Yeah. It was a regular class. And that day we were looking at a TED talk video of this transgendered speaker who was formerly a man and is now a transgender woman. It was also a pastor in many ministries while being a man and then fired once she came out as trans. And then now she works for a different ministry.

But the video itself, and the reason I spoke up, is because it would talk about things like male privilege, sexism, and the disenfranchising of women entirely. And pretty much latent at the feet of men and I just didn’t really agree with that. So, whenever she started the discussion about those same topics, and asked only women to speak first, I was pretty ready to get into the conversation. And I waited for about 30 seconds and no one really was interested and wanted to speak up, so then I decided to share my thoughts.

I said, “€œYou”€™re using an anecdotal experience of this is one person, which just fine for an experience. But it is not that appropriate, I think, to start a discussion in class as if they are facts and arguable without even presenting any facts on the situation.”€ Then I presented my own facts and I said, “€œIf you look at men and women who have the same experience, in the same job, came out of that education, they make the same amount, and sometimes women make more.”€ So, I encouraged my classmates to look at that as well. And I also said, because the professor likes to talk about 72 genders pretty frequently in class, I said, “€œThe biologists don’t agree that there’s more than– that there are 72 genders. There’s two genders.”€ essentially, I said.

Rick:

So, you made two huge mistakes like right out of the chute. First of all you thought you could share your own thoughts on a college campus as if it was the arena of ideas and   not indoctrination. And then the second one was you actually shared facts. Man, you can”€™t share facts on a college campus these days. It’s only what the professor– No, I”€™m giving you a hard time.

Lake Ingle:

It”€™s actual hate speech.

Not Free to Question?

Rick:

It seems like a natural conversation that you spoke up and just, when the opportunity was given, to say, “€œWait a second, can I at least question some of the things you’re saying?”€

Lake Ingle:

Yeah and the biggest part that annoys me, and I’m sure a lot of people like me can agree with this, you’re attacking men in general and you’re attacking white men in general. And it”€™s like, “€œWell, okay, that’s pretty racist and sexist.”€ And those are two things that we’ve been trying to get rid of for the past how long in this country.

Rick:

Yeah.

Lake Ingle:

So, you’re using the things that you criticize people of initially as your own club to then beat me with.

Rick:

Right. I think that part of this, by the way, has been missed a lot in the media. In fact, most of the accounts I read I thought it was only about the transgender issue and it was the equal pay for equal work issue that you really spoke to. And, by the way, for our listeners out there I’ve got to put a link on our website today to a quick four minute video of Milton Friedman answering, on a college campus actually, this question of equal pay for equal workers. This was years ago, but it is so good and he’s actually pointing out how it actually hurts women to pass these laws.

And that’s– we don’t have time to get too far into that, but just the fact that you even questioned the data that, even as you said, the New York Times had already debunked the data that she was giving. That really apparently offended her.

Threatening the Doctrine They Want to Push

Lake Ingle:

Yeah. And people keep asking me why I think she reacted in such a way and I don’t think it’s because she personally– well, she might personally have a prejudice against me, but I don”€™t know. I doubt it”€™s that. I think because the material she wants to put across, and the doctrine that she pushes, I have become so familiar with it over the past couple of years and have made it more or less my hobby and main interest to combat those ideas and I like to do it in class a lot. And I do it in all my other classes with all my other professors and they normally have no problem with it. But this time, I think perhaps the way she wanted to push the class, I was overtly against it and threatening her ability to educate I guess–

Rick:

Well, and that–

Lake Ingle:

–educate her way.

Rick:

Yeah, I was going to say, Lake, that’s what we see a lot is when a teacher, professor, whatever, lecturer, or whoever it is, is pushing an agenda that is so feeble or shallow in facts, and evidence, and history, and all those things, they are usually much more quickly going to try to shut down any challenge to that because it’s so hard to defend those things.

I’m wondering, even in reading the university president’s letter some of just kind of the tone of the letter, or the way he referred to you, that they’ve tried to kind of make it sound like you were basically jumping up and down, and going crazy, and shouting, and really disrupting the class. That was part of the allegation that was a violation of policies because you were disrespectful in your objection. How do you respond to that? What would you describe what happened there that day in the way you questioned?

Lake Ingle:

Well, I’ve said this, and a number of people that support me, even people that don’t support me, have actually said this – the way I reacted that day in class is how I react every time I speak up in class. I’m a boisterous person, I”€™m pretty loud, I have a deep, booming, voice I’ve been told. I’m a big guy, I’m like 200 pounds, so I’m always red in the face, it”€™s just something that’s like part of my family’s heredity. And I also am a passionate person when it comes to things that I believe in. Especially when it’s in an argument setting because I’m– it”€™s engaging and it’s something that I really like to do.

So, I wasn’t being any more or less disruptive, or loud, or anything else, that day than I have been any other day, in any other class, on any other topic that I chose to share. So, that’s why I have to think that it’s the fact that I’m dismantling arguments that are imperative to the doctrine the professor is pushing.

Rick:

Yeah.

Lake Ingle:

That’s why she punished me.

What Happened After That?

Rick:

Well, tell us about what happened after that. So, apparently this committee that was reviewing the case never released their results. The president stepped in and said, “€œNo, we’re going to reinstate Lake into the class, and actually put a monitor in the classroom, and whatnot.”€ I assume at this point you’ve probably gone back to class and this monitors been there. What’s happened since then?

Lake Ingle:

Yeah. So, the first day I was supposed to go back in class which the * office said I was allowed to pending the final decision, which, I of course never got. So, I’ve been back in class and there’s the monitor there. He doesn’t speak or anything he just kind of sits there with a pen and paper jotting down certain things. And I’m wondering if he’s there for me or if he’s there for her or it’s for both. But class has been pretty normal, I think. Some people in the class feel a little awkward. I just want to get through it. I still am not a fan of the material and the doctrine that”€™s being pushed, but I deal with them as best I could.

And I try to participate still because I don’t think that there should be any reason that I shouldn’t. People would tell me I should be silent and I’m like, “€œWell, that doesn’t– that proves nothing. It doesn’t really accomplish much.”€

Rick:

Right.

Lake Ingle:

I still like to contribute to class, but it’s been fairly normal. I have class today there at 5:00. I’m doing my work, reading the feminist theologians that I’m a huge fan of, but I’m still trying to soldier on.

Rick:

Well, man, we wish you the best. I think students that speak up– I teach and I do a lot of lecturing and whatnot, I like for students to interact. How boring is it if they don’t and if nobody ever disagrees or brings it up. And I think a lot of professors appreciate that and it sounds like in your other classes it’s not an issue, they actually enjoy the interaction.

How It Has Been With Other Professors

Lake Ingle:

Yeah. They”€™ve even called me aside because sometimes with professors in my other classes in the past we kind of– we’ll bare our teeth a little bit, and we kind of see the disagreements that we’re having, and we kind of– we get a little too invested. And then after class we’ll kind of like look at each other and give each other a nod and a smile to let each other know it’s like, “€œHey, I’m fine. You’re alright, we’re good.”€ Like, okay, this is good, we’ll see you the next day. And then when we see them in the next class and it’s fine. They’ve even talked to me and they’re like, “€œHey, I like the fact you bring up things because it pushes the discussion.”€

Rick:

Yeah, yeah.

Lake Ingle:

They think of it from like a competitive standpoint. If no one provides any nails for you to hammer down, none of the kids get to see the strategies by which you hit down the nails. And that’s just extending your ability to explain doctrine and that”€™s teaching. So–

Rick:

That’s right.

Lake Ingle:

You can see why, from a practical standpoint, it’s good.

Rick:

Yeah. I couldn’t agree more, man, and I’m glad you pointed that out because it”€™s iron sharpening iron, you”€™re sharpening each other’s countenance–

Lake Ingle:

Exactly.

Had You Not Spoke Up

Rick:

–you’re making each other really nail down your facts. And also it’s great for the other students in the class to be able to hear that discussion. So, I think it’s great and it sounds like it’s ultimately being resolved well. But had you not spoken up– and this is what   some people have criticized you for going to the media and whatnot, but had you not spoken up, other professors would do more of this. We’ve seen it, it’s– unfortunately, it’s the norm, what she did, more than the exception to the rule if you look at the universities across the country as a whole.

And so by speaking up I think it’s going to make other professors out there across the country that see this story say, “€œI don’t want to make the mistake she did even if I disagree with Lake, or the student that speaks up, I want people to see my classroom as an arena of ideas and the opportunity to have that discussion.”€ That’s what freedom is supposed to be about, right?

Lake Ingle:

Yeah. And conversely with students, I’ve had kids come up to me and they’re like, “€œYeah–“€ with this professor sometimes specifically people will say, but also with many others, it’s like, “€œYeah, man, I’m a conservative, and I bring my ideas, and they bully them out of conversation, and it even reflects on my grades sometimes.”€ And I’m like, “€œWell, I hope– and they’re like, “€œWell, now people are telling me that I should go to the department and I said go to someone else.”€ And I’m like, “€œYou should. You shouldn’t be afraid.”€

Rick:

Yeah. I hope it creates more and more discussion. I also saw that that your turning point group on campus had run into some issues with having Charlie Kirk come out and it looks like that’s hopefully going to be resolved as well and he’s going to get to come speak. Well, we wish you the best and we appreciate your time coming on program today.

Lake Ingle:

Hey, thanks for having me.

Rick:

Stay with us, folks. We”€™ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.

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Rick:

Thanks for staying with us today, folks. We’re back on WallBuilders Live. Back with David and Tim Barton. Thanks to Lake Ingle for taking time to share with us. I guess he might have had some classes he could skip, guys, maybe– I wouldn’t want him skipping classes though he needs to be there to defend some truth against some of these professors.

David:

Well, I love the fact that he was willing to engage in truth and willing to point out to the classmates that, “€œNo, no, no, your argument, prof, has actually been contradicted even by the New York Times.”€ Which is certainly not anybody on the radical religious right. So, you’ve got the New York Times, he’s aware of that. I love the fact that he went to the prof and said, “€œYou know, you’re using an anecdotal experience. That’s not the basis of truth. That’s not the–“€

And, Rick, you know as a legislator, man, how many laws have been passed on one thing that happened–

This Nearly Always Turns Out Bad in the Long Run

Rick:

One story, one story, man.

David:

One sob story.

Rick:

And you come in and this long sob story in committee and everybody– Oh, yeah, and then they go pass a law on that one–

David

And nearly always that turns out to be a bad law in the long run.

Rick:

Yeah, yes.

David:

You don’t pass laws on the exceptions, you pass laws on what tendencies are. And so the fact that Lake is raising these kind of arguments and pointing out– this is a dangerous guy. He actually likes truth and advocates truth over opinion. This is good.

Tim:

Well, guys, this is one of the things that we have tried so hard to encourage from Patriot Academy, from our leadership training sessions we do in the summer–

David:

Which, by the way, if anyone wants to sign up for that we’re coming up on the summertime. We do two week leadership training.

Tim:

And not just anyone, right. It’s 18 to 25 year old. So–

David:

Thank you.

Tim:

— right, for mom, dad, grandma, and grandpa, listening, we love you, but you’re not invited to this training session.

Rick:

Right.

Tim:

Although, you could do the Citizens Track at Patriot Academy.

Rick:

There you go.

Giving a Foundation of Truth

Tim:

But, yeah, there’s things you can do to get involved. But one of the things we try to do is is help to give kids a foundation of knowledge of truth of information so that they are able to do what Lake did and say, “€œNow, wait a second. Isn’t there something else, isn”€™t there another side of the story?

Now, one of the things we strategically help encourage students to do is to ask questions. Because it’s so easy– Lake, as he was explaining, look, it was a conversation, I’ve got a deep voice, I’m a big guy, I’m not trying to be aggressive and mean, I’m just asking these– But one of the things we tell students, if a professor feels threatened they’re going to get defensive and all of a sudden the conversation is over, the arguments over, because they’re going to feel like they have to defend their position of authority. And especially if you’re challenging them in an area where truth is not on their side, so they’re going to lose this argument, then they’re going to get even more emotional and passionate.

David:

Which, by the way, Rick, I love what you pointed out that when you can’t win on facts and truth, they just like to shut down the argument.

Rick:

Yeah.

David:

Which really is the case. Go ahead, Tim.

One of the Best Ways to Defend Truth is by Asking Questions

Tim:

Well, so what we encourage young people to do is to ask questions. Because certainly   what Lake is pointing out is great information. And I wonder if maybe a question that could have been asked is, “€œExcuse me, miss professor, ma’am, lady, didn’t the New York Times have an article that talked about this. But did they say there was only two genders? So, how did they arrive at that conclusion?”€

You can ask a question in a way where it seems like I’m trying to learn something and now she probably would have gotten offensive and emotional anyway because it’s challenging that position. But you can ask it in a way where you’re not being aggressive, you’re not being confrontational, you’re pursuing truth. And then it really exposes the professor to, do I care about truth? Or am I just trying to shove my mission down people’s throats? Because it becomes very evident to the class of–

David:

That”€™s right.

Two Genders: Student Kicked Out Of His College Class For Quoting Scientific Facts

Tim:

–“€œOh my gosh. He just asked a question and she flipped out.”€ But we certainly want to encourage people, as you know the truth, to be ready to defend it. And one of the best ways to defend it is by asking question because it makes the other side have to defend a position where there is no facts and logic.

David:

And if you’re interested in that training this summer, we have three sessions, two weeks. Go to WallBuilders.com/leadershiptraining and applications are there are. Those that are 18 to 25, great training we have the summer.

Rick:

Thanks for listening today, folks. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.