What To Do If You Are Pressured To Get The Shot – With Mat Staver: Who is really “following the science”? How can citizens make their own informed decisions about their health? Is it lawful to coerce someone to take a treatment under an “emergency use authorization”? If the shot doesn’t keep you from getting sick, why should everyone get it? Is what’s going on more about politics than health? Should our kids have to get an experimental DNA modifier before attending school? Tune in to hear Mat Staver explain what to do if you or your children are pressured to get the shot!

Air Date: 07/27/2021

Guest: Mat Staver

On-air Personalities: David Barton, Rick Green, and Tim Barton


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Transcription note:  As a courtesy for our listeners’ enjoyment, we are providing a transcription of this podcast. Transcription will be released shortly. However, as this is transcribed from a live talk show, words and sentence structure were not altered to fit grammatical, written norms in order to preserve the integrity of the actual dialogue between the speakers. Additionally, names may be misspelled or we might use an asterisk to indicate a missing word because of the difficulty in understanding the speaker at times. We apologize in advance.

Faith and the Culture


Welcome to the intersection of faith and the culture. It’s WallBuilders Live. We’re taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Thanks for joining us today. I’m Rick Green, former Texas legislator and America’s Constitution coach. 

I’m here with David Barton. He’s America’s premier historian and our founder at WallBuilders, and Tim Barton, national speaker and pastor and president of WallBuilders. You can find out more about all three of us at our website, it’s wallbuilderslive.com, wall builders live.com. You can get archives the program there, make a contribution to the program so we can reach more people, and just get some great information.

Also, go to wallbuilders.com, so two different websites, but you can link back and forth; Lots of great information at wallbuilders.com, articles on the page, lots of great materials that you can use to get educated and equipped to do your part.

David and Tim, later in the program, Mat Staver from Liberty Counsel will be with us. Their website is lc.org. We’re going to be talking about these mandatory shots and door to door vaccine harassment, can I say that, just all of the different things that are happening. He’s on the frontlines fighting a lot of these legal battles, religious liberty guy we’ve had on many, many times over the years for religious liberty, but really now having to fight these basic civil liberty issues as well.


Yeah, it’s interesting to me that this whole debate is changing as rapidly as it has in the last few months. I mean, early on, there were people who did not agree with what was happening with COVID and the shutdowns and the lock-ins, and etc. And so you had the Great Barrington declaration, but they didn’t get traction. There were more of them than there were of the Faucis’, but the Faucis’ got traction, the other guys didn’t.

“Follow the Science”

And as this thing is developed, and now we got a lot of scientific evidence that shows hey, Barrington Declaration guys were a whole lot more right than Fauci was. It’s interesting that their favorite terms with this seem to be you have to follow the science, and that if you don’t, then we’re science deniers, we who believe otherwise. And they use those terms as pejoratives trying to embarrass you and humiliate you and make people dislike you. 

And then when it turns out they were wrong, it’s like they never remember having said that, and never gets applied to them. And so it’s interesting that now it looks like that they’re the science deniers and that we’re the ones following the science, but they just don’t use those terms anymore.


Well, and yeah, the notion of following the science, it’s, we’ve said this many times on the show, but you have to go Wait a second. The people who don’t believe that basic biology of male and female who don’t believe in DNA, who don’t believe in chromosomes, who don’t believe in genetics, who don’t believe in biology, who don’t believe that there’s male and female gender.

They think gender is fluid, that the people who don’t believe in that are the people who are saying, follow the science. What science are you following?

And what we’re seeing, what we’re seeing more and more is they’re following politics, they’re not following science, because we’ve seen the circular loop with a lot of the talk about you don’t need a mask, you do need a mask. Well, only mask until you get the vaccine and then get the vaccine and you’re fine. 

Well, actually get the vaccine and keep wearing the mask. And actually, you might need to continue to get boosters in the vaccine. And actually, it’s not just when you get the vaccine, everybody has to get the vaccine. Well, none of that is science. This is so crazy what we are saying. And right now…


I mean, Tim, even the President of the United States in his town hall meeting said you cannot get COVID if you get vaccinated, that is so false, and in the same breath, he’s saying follow the science. So he’s ignoring the science and the data of all these people that got the vaccine and still got COVID and then they still expect us to just follow everything that they say.

The Hypocrisy 


And this is where, Rick, so often we point out the hypocrisy of some of these leaders who oftentimes what you are seeing is that they are much more interested in people obeying them acquiescing to their will, to their political whims, to their desires. This is much more about control than it is science at this point.

I was actually in a hotel recently, and I was going down an elevator and the door open, and there was a gentleman outside the elevator. And he looked in and saw me without a mask, he said, are you vaccinated? 

I said I’m not. He said, oh, I’ll wait and get the next one, and I thought, wait a second, aren’t you vaccinated because if you’re vaccinated, I don’t have to be vaccinated if that science is true, right? If getting the vaccine keeps you from getting COVID, it doesn’t matter if I’m vaccinated or not. 

And if the vaccine doesn’t keep you from getting COVID, then it doesn’t matter if I’m vaccinated either way, because if I was vaccinated, and you can still get COVID, then it doesn’t matter that we’re both vaccinated.

This is where it doesn’t make sense scientifically what people are saying and how it’s being argued. And I understand there’s probably some medical doctors out there right now, who are saying you guys are misunderstanding this. I’m not trying to misrepresent what people are saying. I am trying to point out that what is being said is inconsistent, is illogical, and is not necessarily scientific. And that’s the problem.


And one of the things that goes with this narrative they’re pushing is how aggressive they’re becoming with it. And we know now of several states where that the COVID money that came up from the Biden administration a few months ago, that money is now being used to send people door to door to door pushing the vaccine, asking do you have your vaccination. 

I mean, they’re really pressuring you into making decisions and they’re doing this on federal money. In that COVID package that came out from the Biden administration, only 9% of it actually went to helping people who had been hurt by COVID, unemployment, whatever else.

The Deception

So you’re looking at essentially 91% of that, what was that, 1.8 trillion whatever it was, has gone into all sorts of other problems like social problems, pushing this COVID non-science stuff. And that’s just not safe. It’s not good. And so a lot of people weren’t aware of that. But this, again, is what Congress does. 

They create these big Omnibus packages, where they stick so much into unrelated and they say it’s all about COVID, or something we’re all concerned with. And that’s the 9%. Is the 91%, you got to be looking for. It’s like the magician who says, watch my hand, watch my hand, you ought to be watching the other hand he’s not telling you to watch, because that’s where all the action is happening.

And so that’s one of the things that’s happening now. And unfortunately, some states have stood up and said, no, no, Georgia and Missouri have been stated that we’re not doing that. We’re not sending people door to door. We’re not going to pressure people into getting vaccines. There’s been all sorts of complications, so many complications from vaccines. This really is a citizen choice and it’s not the government’s position to force you into taking these kinds of things.

We seem to forget that America for 400 years has averaged a medical pandemic once every 15 years or so, many of the much more lethal than COVID has been by percentage mortality. And we’re acting like this is the first medical crisis we’ve ever had. It’s just crazy. 

And so, people across the United States are pushing back and saying, hey, what can I do? How can I do? My college is saying, I’ve got to be vaccinated. My schools are saying this, my social professionals, whatever group I belong to saying, I got to be vaccinated. Do I have to be vaccinated? Do I have a choice in this matter?

And that’s where without you know, a guy who’s really on the front edge of this legally is Mat Staver with Liberty Counsel. Mat is representing so many people and so many people who have objected being forced to take the vaccine when they don’t believe in it, they don’t want it. It even violates their conscience religiously. So we thought let’s get Mat on to talk about this because this is something really big in the news right now.


Mat Staver, our special guest. Stay with us, folks, we’ll be right back on WallBuilders Live.


This is Tim Barton from WallBuilders with another moment from American history. The year after the American war for independence ended, we begin addressing the issue of Muslim terrorists in North Africa, who were attacking American ships and killing and enslaving American seamen. Congress dispatched John Adams and Thomas Jefferson to negotiate peace. And when they asked the Muslim ambassador the reason for the unprovoked attacks, he told them that it was written in their Quran that it was their right and duty to make war upon them whenever they can be found.

16 years of negotiations failed. And in 1801, America sent its military to crush the terrorists. When that war ended in 1805, the first American edition of the Quran was published urging Americans to read the Quran to see for themselves that this teachings were incompatible with the safety and peace of non-Muslims.

To see the first American Qur’an, and to get more information about America’s first war on Islamic terror, go to wallbuilders.com


Welcome back to the intersection of faith and the culture. Thanks for staying with us here on WallBuilders Live. Always good to have Mat Staver from Liberty Counsel on, Mat, thanks for some time today, bro.


Good to be with you, Rick.


Hey, you guys continue to do incredible work on religious liberty on so many different things. You got cases all over the country. Lc.org, for folks that want to follow the cases, donate, help you guys do what you do. One of the things I so appreciate from you over the last year, you have really been a bold leader on not just religious liberty, but just our other constitutional liberties with what they’re trying to do with the vaccine requirements and everything that’s gone on with the COVID crackdowns.

And you’ve really stayed on top of this vaccine issue and our listeners are really wanting to know more about what they can or can’t do, what the government can or can’t do, can they lose their jobs, all of these things. So let’s just start there and say, what’s your position on how citizens can make their own informed decision about whether to get the vaccine, and then what the consequences of that may be?

It’s Happening All Over the Country


Yes, Rick, we’re getting inundated with those kinds of requests all over the country, whether it’s people in the employment environment, or those that want to go to school, they’re being told many times that you are going to be fired if you don’t get these shots, or you’re not going to be able to go back to school or not be able to enter school or not going to be able to participate in your clinicals or your final semester, whatever it may be. That’s happening all over the country.

Let’s begin with the federal law. It’s their emergency use Authorization Act, which comes into play and that is a federal law that allows the FDA to provide emergency use. That happens when they declare an emergency as they did with COVID. 

But whatever it is the medication, the drug, in this case, these COVID shots, don’t have the data, don’t have the time, don’t have the information with regards to testing in terms of whether they’re effective, and most particularly whether they’re safe.

That’s what happened with these COVID shots. They were authorized and that’s what they are authorized now, under is the emergency use authorization provision. And the FDA and the CDC clearly indicate that it’s still in the investigational stage because they don’t have the data. There’s no way that you could know, for example, 6 months, 8 months, 12 months, two years down the road what the consequences of these drugs or these injections are going to be.


Yeah, normally don’t they take 10-15, sometimes 20 years to get something like that?


Yeah, they do. I mean, a quick one would be 10 years and sometimes they take many more years than that several decades, but they have many years of testing, they first begin on animals. And if we look at, for example, the mRNA, they tried testing that before COVID, they stopped that because it failed the clinical trials with regards to animals: the animals were dying, so they stopped it. So we’ve never had an mRNA vaccine or anything that’s been injected in humans before like this.

It’s Not Even a Vaccine


And I’m glad you mentioned that, because I called it a vaccine. It’s really not even a vaccine. It’s an experimental DNA modifier.


It really is an experimental DNA modifier. And all three of them have the same essential mechanism in the sense that they create an artificial spike protein and we now know that that goes throughout the entire body and affects all these different organs. What we now know too is from the CDC various report, we’ve had more deaths from the COVID shots in six months than we’ve had in all the vaccine deaths over a 31 year period, which is staggering.

So, now people, they need to do some investigation, they need to find out more about this, and we have information there. But then when they get pressured, they need to take our legal memo, we have it at lc.org/vaccine, there’s a legal memo that’s there. We can also provide you director information contact, send a specific letter for you.

And we have been very successful around the country so far in getting opt-outs for religious accommodation for other reasons. So if you have a question like that being pressured, contact Liberty Counsel will work with you. In fact, just this week, we got some individuals and dental students in Missouri, and they were told that you can no longer participate in your clinicals and they’re at the very end of their dental program. And we ended up being able to get that particular situation reversed.

But the problem is, is that Fauci obviously, is trying to push these things, I think fast track them so that they get outside of the emergency use authorization, literally short circuit, what’s necessary to find out the proper data and to try to get these things completely FDA license. That means we don’t have the emergency use authorization defensive. 

The emergency use authorization says specifically for anything under that, and all these COVID shots are, you cannot coerce them, you cannot coerce them. It has to be informed and free full consent of the individual.

Coercion is Unlawful

So you have to find out about it, you have to make your own decision. Nobody can coerce you and that includes an employer or your school, private or public, you can’t coerce them. In fact, even the EEOC says while the employer might be able to give some incentives, the incentives cannot become coercive, the employer cannot force them on employees, and the employer can’t even give incentive such that those incentives themselves must become too enticing so that they essentially are coercive.


That is critical. That is so powerful right there. And as you’re speaking, I’m scrolling through your memo right now, folks, you got to go to the website llc.org/vaccine, llc.org/vaccine. 

Print this thing out and have it handy and share it with your friends and family. So Mat, you hit the nail on the head. And of course, the critical question, okay, once it’s no longer experimental, once it’s no longer under emergency authorization, because you’re right I saw Fauci the other day saying we’re pushing hard for this [inaudible 13:39] tapper, and you know, this is going to happen, and then we’re going to be able to get our mandates. 

I mean, that’s their golden ticket for them, I guess. They think at that point, we have no legal recourse. Are you thinking ahead on that and what do you think happens?


Well, we are thinking ahead. So it’s not that we don’t have any recourse, we just lose one of the particular grievances that we have because we have laws in all 50 states. There’s medical exemptions in all 50 states, and there’s a religious exemptions, in all but about four or five states. And there’s also philosophical exemptions for any reason in a number of states as well. Frankly, a majority of states have those.

It Should Be a Personal Decision

So there’s other state law as well that provides a personal autonomy in addition to the specific vaccine type exemptions. So we’re working on those different states to make sure that people are not forced that this is your free decision. This is a decision that you ought to make in divisionally: the government nor your employer nor your school has any business forcing you to make these decisions.


Yeah, I mean, we used to have a little faith in American people to be able to research their own situation, do the cost benefit analysis. I mean, a medical decision is personal and it’s different for everybody, especially in this situation where the virus is different depending on your age, and your health and all of that, so your risks are different. It just can’t be a one size fits all. 

And I know you’ve written about this, but I mean to me it is criminal that they’re forcing this on kids. Now when I say forcing it, I mean they’re pushing it in such a way that it feels forced to me. I mean, now they’re going door to door. I mean, all the things that they’re doing, these kids have no risk, I mean, well, practically no risk, almost a zero risk…


Almost zero.


Yeah. And yet they still want to do this.


Yeah. In fact, Senator Ron Johnson, Republican from Wisconsin held a press conference with individuals who have had severe injuries from these various shots from all three. And one of them was a mother and the little daughter, 12 year old was Maddie, she was put by her mother into the clinical trials. She’s a straight A student up until now she’s confined to a wheelchair and is confined to having a feeding tube in her nose at all times. And that was one of the reactions from this shot.

And I encourage you now on that website, llc.org/vaccine, you’ll find that story and others under personal stories. But that’s what’s happening. I mean, the children at that particular age, it’s a 99.005% survival rate without virtually any treatment at all, let alone now you start adding some efficacy and treatment there that’s out there, that’s very effective. And there’s really no risk for children to have COVID. There’s a huge risk for them to get the shots.

Cures Are Already Available


That’s exactly right. And that story you told is not anecdotal, it’s happening, including adults, it’s happening thousands of times. I mean, I have a good friend that’s already dealing with neurological problems from one of them. 

I mean, it’s crazy that we continue to push this. And I want to ask you this about Fauci, because I’m wondering if they’re not really trying to speed this up, because I didn’t realize this till a couple of weeks ago, that if ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, were actually finally acknowledged as being treatments that, I mean, 24 studies now in ivermectin.

I mean, there’s just no question about how good it is, but apparently, in this emergency authorization, it’s not just that those things would be competitors with the vaccine, it’s that they would lose their emergency authorization and wouldn’t even be able to distribute the vaccine. I didn’t realize that.

And there’s some doctors and epidemiologists talking about that. Now I realize the cover up why the big tech and government have teamed up to keep us from talking about these amazing ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine numbers: they don’t want anybody to know about that, because then they can’t do the vaccine.


Yeah, one of the great world renowned experts that’s been talking on this issue is right there in your state at Baylor. And that’s Dr. Peter McCullough, and I just did an interview with him, an amazing individual, incredible breadth of knowledge. He says the same thing. 

And the only reason why you can get an emergency use authorization is one, there’s an emergency, and two, they say, well, there’s nothing in existence to treat that emergency. Well, the fact is that that’s false. It’s always been false.

The Lancet Lied

In fact, the Lancet Journal last year to try to crush hydroxychloroquine issued a journal article saying that wasn’t effective to treat COVID. The Lancet Journal was one of the highest respected journals in the world. Well, that had a cataclysmic effect to stop people giving hydroxychloroquine. They had to end up pulling that article in the unprecedented move to pull the article because they found that it was based on false data.

Now, there’s all kinds of studies for ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine how effective they are. I have personal knowledge from many, many people that I’ve recommended that to and they’ve had that and had miraculous turnaround. I have a friend just two weeks ago, she’s in her upper 80s. She went to a hospital and she got these, not from the hospital, but she got them from someone who was able to provide them to her, and she was out in two and a half days after taking that medication. So it very as much effective.

But you’re right, more and more studies are coming out and saying that. And so consequently, where’s the emergency? Because there is no more emergency. That’s why they’re trying to push this. Because otherwise, all of these medications, all these COVID shots, they go away because the emergency never existed for them because we didn’t have a vacuum of medication, we had very good treatment. They just tried to suppress it. And that’s why they tried to suppress it.


If we ever get true free speech back in the public square is actually open for debate, it will be one of the most embarrassing episodes in the history of the United States and the world. I mean, the cover up, it’s criminal the lives have been lost because of what they’ve done.


Twitter and Facebook, just those two alone would stop censoring people’s personal stories, they would go viral, and this would come to an end quickly.

Visit Liberty Counsel Online


Wow. And it’s unbelievable. Well, brother, I appreciate you. I know you guys have had some great victories on the religious liberty side of things, getting churches opened back up, overcoming a lot of these dictates from these governors that think they’re kings. So you’ve had a very, very busy year. And I also know that costs money, you need more and more attorneys and travel and all those things.

So I really want to encourage people if you want to help freedom fighters on the front lines, go to lc.org today, make a contribution and get on the email list. Mat has a great email that comes out every couple of days and keeps you updated on these things. But support them. 

It takes dollars to be on the frontlines and fight. And so if you can’t be on the frontlines fighting, you need to be supporting the ones that are there like Mat Staver and his team at Liberty Counsel. Matt, I appreciate you so much, brother. Thanks for some time today.


Thanks. God bless, Rick.


That’s Mat Staver at Liberty Counsel, lc.org in the website. We’ll be right back with David and Tim Barton.


Hey, guys, we want to let you know about a new resource we have at WallBuilders called The American Story. For so many years, people have asked us to do a history book to help tell more of the story that’s just not known or not told today.

And we would say very providentially in the midst of all of the new attacks coming out against America, whether it be from things like the 1619 project that say America is evil, and everything in America was built off slavery, which is certainly not true or things, like even the Black Lives Matter movement, the organization itself, not out the statement Black Lives Matter, but the organization that says we’re against everything that America was built on, and this is part of the Marxist ideology. There’s so many things attacking America.

Well, is America worth defending? What is the true story of America? We actually have written and told that story starting with Christopher Columbus, going roughly through Abraham Lincoln, we tell the story of America not as the story of a perfect nation of a perfect people. But the story of how God used these imperfect people and did great things through this nation. It’s a story you want to check out wallbuilders.com, The American Story.


We’re back here on WallBuilders Live. Thanks for staying with us. And special thanks to Mat Staver for joining us on the program today. And be sure to go to lc.org and get that print out that he was talking about the memo, gives you great information. 

I’ve actually got it printed out and sitting right here on my desk now. I’m going to be encouraging folks to have that handy whenever they face this situation in their communities.

David and Tim, so thankful for Mat, so thankful for the accurate information to get out there. We’ve got misinformation on both sides right now of, what I mean by both sides is telling people inaccurate information about the vaccine to try to get them to take it and then not telling people about the treatments like ivermectin, and hydroxychloroquine so they can make an informed decision about what the cost benefit analysis that we would normally make with any vaccine or any medical procedure at all.

The Emergency Use Authorization Act


Yeah, there’s a lot of stuff that people aren’t being told, even including the fact, as Mat pointed out, this is under the Emergency Use Authorization Act, which means it’s an emergency solution, because it has not been fully tested. It’s not run the course of tests.

 And as he points out, there have been more deaths under this COVID vaccine than all other vaccines combined over the last 31 years. So the fact that you have one that is not officially approved yet, it has this emergency us and people are thinking it has to be mandated, well, it has even run all the tests yet.

And quite frankly, I did not realize that it was actually a DNA modifier. I thought it was closer to a vaccine. 

I didn’t realize that it was just a DNA modification that was the solution to this, the purported solution to this thing. So that in itself is kind of like medical malpractice in some ways. I’m not even being fully informed of what this thing is, and what it does, nor the fact that it hasn’t been fully vetted or tested, nor the fact that it’s got a higher death rate than all of the vaccines combined for the last 31 years. I mean, those are important facts that people should be told and we’re not being told that.


Yeah, I mean, I think that’s part of the reason we get righteously angry at this point is because we know this is not just some esoteric debate, there’re lives at stake here. Lives have been lost by not giving the right information. 

I mean, how many lives could have been saved if the government would not have been hiding the positive effects of ivermectin, now 24 studies that backup, its efficacy with regard to COVID, all the lives that are being saved right now with it.

And, think of how many could have been saved over the last year and a half? And, to me the idea that that they would hide that information, knowing that if that information was out, they lose their emergency authorization on the vaccine, that’s criminal. I mean, I think lives have been lost because of those decisions by government officials.


Yeah. And then add to, to me is a compounding factor that they are promoting that we now need children to be vaccinated, you have teachers union saying we need children to be vaccinated before they can go back to school. And again, the notion we talked about before the interview was that we hear so often we need to follow the science. 

More Likely to Be Struck by Lightning

Well, the science shows that this is not a very lethal thing for children. The science shows that there are so many other things that kids are way more likely to die by things like car accidents, or actually, for some situations, the flu is way more deadly than this COVID-19 is for students, actually lightning strikes.

I mean, you can go down the list of things, some of them seemingly ridiculous, and yet there’s a higher rate of children dying by those things than from COVID-19, again, based on the age. And yet we’re saying in the midst of follow the science that well, these kids need to be vaccinated or they can’t go back to school.

And even as Mat pointed out, you have a lot of deaths happening from this vaccine. And actually, we’ve seen literally thousands of young men who have had heart issues after getting the vaccine. I said, about young man, we’re talking about teenagers specifically who have had these heart issues after getting the vaccine. And these are kids who weren’t largely susceptible to dangers from COVID in the first place. This absolutely is not following the science.

It’s very questionable on some of the ethics of the people that are promoting this because what they have still not shown us is even the level of financial gain that these companies are making off of this vaccine that people are wanting to make mandatory. And people talk about Big Pharma sometimes in almost seemingly conspiratorial way. 

Emergency Use Authorization Act

Guys, I don’t mean it’s not conspiratorial. But there’s no doubt people are making crazy amounts of money off of this. And now when we’re saying that there needs to be a mandate for children to get this vaccine to even go back to school, there has to be something else beyond this, because it’s not the science. And this is actually even questionable.

If it’s political, it seems that there’s a lot of financial gain, there’s a lot of games being played. And this certainly is not healthy what we are seeing, this outcome. And dad, as you mentioned, that this was an emergency use Authorization Act. This has not been tested. 

People don’t even know what’s going to happen long term from this. And I’m not saying this as an anti-vaxxer. That’s not the position I’m coming from. 

I am not against certain vaccines. However, if you’re going to tell me that there is an untested vaccine that you’re going to force me to take, I’m not sure I’m signing up to be the guinea pig for what you don’t know what’s going to happen with this vaccine. And that’s where I have questions.

What To Do If You Are Pressured To Get The Shot – With Mat Staver


And that should be our right to make those decisions, especially for the younger population that’s so not at risk for this compared to the older population or those with comorbidities. I mean, that used to be the American way, right? I mean, we make our own individual health decisions. 

And a lot of this we could blame going all the way back to Obamacare, this idea that government knows best, government can provide, government’s going to take care of you. I mean, that is just a dangerous, dangerous path, and we continue to go down that road. So thank the good Lord for folks like Mat Staver and others that are helping us to navigate these difficult times. Keep listening to WallBuilders Live, we’ll keep bringing you guests like that, we’ll keep giving you that biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Thanks so much for listening today. You’ve been listening to WallBuilders Live.